Placebo administered through injection is more effective than placebo administered through pill form.
Placebo administered by someone dressed as a doctor is more effective than placebo administered by someone dressed as a nurse.
By that rationale, placebo administered by what you believe to be the creator of the universe could explain any personal experience you have ever had with said creator.
It doesn't matter that an actor dressed like a doctor injected you with a saline solution, you'll feel better. With that said, tell me something that has happened to you personally, that I cannot explain away as placebo.
And here's some homework for you. If you haven't had any experiences with the creator, ask yourself why you believe in him. It might be someone else's experience with placebo.
Religion is Placebo
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Tired of the Nonsense
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Post #111
No I don't... because you have failed to provide it. You have my attention. What more could you ask for?Dokimas wrote: You don't know what 'evidence' I've seen.
Dokimas wrote:
As you don't owe me an explanation of what you base your beliefs upon (and remember I'm not the first to mention 'perponderance of evidence' - btw, where's the proof?), I don't owe you an explanation.
Why do I sense yet another Christian cop out in the making here? Grandiose claims followed by a certain amount of bluster and then the inevitable indignant bail.
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Slopeshoulder
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Post #112
I haven't read the thread, but here's my 2 cents:
Placebo's "work" in concert with the recipient's faith. As we don't have the science to establish some sort of epistemic or metaphysical certainty regarding religion, we can say that religion is an orientation that works with our moral and aesthetic sense, our intuition, our hearts, our non-linear reasoning. I'm fine with that. No more no less.
So:
- it works for many people, with minimal invasiveness, which is the point
- it requires a mindset to work
- unlike medicine, we don't have the science to affirm or deny the "reality" that it may point to, so placebo is only partly successful as an analogy
Neo-pragmatism combined with wonder and respect for the human heart are not new to the discussion of religion, nor are they a recipe for hoodwinking ourselves. So what's the problem?
Placebo's "work" in concert with the recipient's faith. As we don't have the science to establish some sort of epistemic or metaphysical certainty regarding religion, we can say that religion is an orientation that works with our moral and aesthetic sense, our intuition, our hearts, our non-linear reasoning. I'm fine with that. No more no less.
So:
- it works for many people, with minimal invasiveness, which is the point
- it requires a mindset to work
- unlike medicine, we don't have the science to affirm or deny the "reality" that it may point to, so placebo is only partly successful as an analogy
Neo-pragmatism combined with wonder and respect for the human heart are not new to the discussion of religion, nor are they a recipe for hoodwinking ourselves. So what's the problem?
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David 2.0
Hi..
Post #113Been thinking on this one...
(Props!)
Religion is not a placebo.
Lets not make this about numbers...
Hypothetically...
I pass out a drug in a clinical trial.
I give it to seven billion people.
Most people come back and say, "I felt an effect."
There is a God of some sort.
Thats effectiveness. A drug that works on nearly everyone?
Not a placebo.
To put it another way...
If you had a drug that cured cancer 90% of the time, purely with the placebo effect, you might as well patent it.
Good as gold.
It cures cancer even if by accident?
90% of the time.
I guess I would expect smaller numbers from a placebo.
(Props!)
Religion is not a placebo.
Lets not make this about numbers...
Hypothetically...
I pass out a drug in a clinical trial.
I give it to seven billion people.
Most people come back and say, "I felt an effect."
There is a God of some sort.
Thats effectiveness. A drug that works on nearly everyone?
Not a placebo.
To put it another way...
If you had a drug that cured cancer 90% of the time, purely with the placebo effect, you might as well patent it.
Good as gold.
It cures cancer even if by accident?
90% of the time.
I guess I would expect smaller numbers from a placebo.
Post #114
When they have clinical trials and the effects of the placebo equal the effects of the drug, the drug is considered useless. My point is that all religious people have an equal response to their religious experiences. How can this be, if there is only one true god? It would seem to me that only the ones worshipping the one true god should feel any meaningful effects. But it isn't that way. They're all equal. This is because their god only exists in their individual minds. Like the placebo effect, it doesn't matter what the problem is, it's the faith in the medicine that matters.
Placebo like God does not cure amputees, and for the same reason.
Think of it this way; I was given a Men's Health magazine for Christmas. According to this magazine they can teach me how to have "Sex so good she'll think she's with two and a half men." They'll tell me what foods will make my belly flatter. They know how to make "Bigger Biceps, sculpted abs and head-to-toe muscle plan. They'll teach me how to "Rev up my Money Machine". I'll be "Wealthy by next year". I'll "Look better instantly". They'll teach me how to "Focus my anger", "Tame my stress", "Sharpen my thinking" and they'll give me "Fittest body ever - In 4 Weeks!"
Why should I need any other magazine ever!? This one has all the answers. But I have a feeling they'll come out with another next month. This magazine works the same way religion does. Consider the models to be the ones I have to live up to. I never will. Jesus is the same. You'll never live up to him. You can't. And like the magazine, religion knows this. You cannot live up to those standards.
I'm saying stop trying. It's just a sugar pill. Going to church and praying will do you no more good than reading magazines. It's church and magazines that tell us we're not good enough in the first place. They don't have the answers. If they did you wouldn't have to buy next months edition or listen to next weeks sermon.
For Christians in particular, since this is the Christianity and Apologetics forum, the 10 commandments are designed with failure in mind. They need you to feel guilty. They control you using your guilt, that they've established by setting up unattainable goals.
Go back to the beginning and read my responses. All I say is free yourself from your own expectations and the expectations of other.
Placebo like God does not cure amputees, and for the same reason.
Think of it this way; I was given a Men's Health magazine for Christmas. According to this magazine they can teach me how to have "Sex so good she'll think she's with two and a half men." They'll tell me what foods will make my belly flatter. They know how to make "Bigger Biceps, sculpted abs and head-to-toe muscle plan. They'll teach me how to "Rev up my Money Machine". I'll be "Wealthy by next year". I'll "Look better instantly". They'll teach me how to "Focus my anger", "Tame my stress", "Sharpen my thinking" and they'll give me "Fittest body ever - In 4 Weeks!"
Why should I need any other magazine ever!? This one has all the answers. But I have a feeling they'll come out with another next month. This magazine works the same way religion does. Consider the models to be the ones I have to live up to. I never will. Jesus is the same. You'll never live up to him. You can't. And like the magazine, religion knows this. You cannot live up to those standards.
I'm saying stop trying. It's just a sugar pill. Going to church and praying will do you no more good than reading magazines. It's church and magazines that tell us we're not good enough in the first place. They don't have the answers. If they did you wouldn't have to buy next months edition or listen to next weeks sermon.
For Christians in particular, since this is the Christianity and Apologetics forum, the 10 commandments are designed with failure in mind. They need you to feel guilty. They control you using your guilt, that they've established by setting up unattainable goals.
Go back to the beginning and read my responses. All I say is free yourself from your own expectations and the expectations of other.
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David 2.0
Hi...
Post #115Hi Mr.Badham!
Personally, I am close to agreement on your commentary...
Your preaching, in some way, to the choir.
Personally...
I'm not sure about your definition of placebo.
We are not talking about a reaction that happens to half of the control group are we?
I would say on some level "most" feel the effect.
Which, without allowances, weakens your argument?
Personally, I am close to agreement on your commentary...
Your preaching, in some way, to the choir.
Personally...
I'm not sure about your definition of placebo.
We are not talking about a reaction that happens to half of the control group are we?
I would say on some level "most" feel the effect.
Which, without allowances, weakens your argument?
Re: Hi...
Post #116All people are susceptible to placebo. And until someone can explain how conflicting religions can bring about similar results, I stand by my OP.David 2.0 wrote:Hi Mr.Badham!
Personally, I am close to agreement on your commentary...
Your preaching, in some way, to the choir.
Personally...
I'm not sure about your definition of placebo.
We are not talking about a reaction that happens to half of the control group are we?
I would say on some level "most" feel the effect.
Which, without allowances, weakens your argument?
I think it's about hope. Everyone hopes for something. If you go to the doctor, it's because you hope he can make you better.
If you go to church it's because you hope for redemption.
I came to this website because I hoped someone would tell me something I didn't know. And I've learned more since July 4th than I thought I would. This is some of the most fun I've had in a long time.
I believe that I am correct because of the state of mind that I have when I log onto this forum. I just want someone to say something I haven't thought of.
You'll notice that I don't have any labels. Not even my age. None of that stuff matters. I refuse to add labels because I don't know what I'll be when I log off.
I am atheist because I don't believe in God. I don't... not believe in God because I am an atheist. I'm simply waiting for someone to convince me that there is a god. And no one has, so I put out reasons why people might think there is a god.
I think the placebo thing has struck a nerve. It should have.
Post #118
Placebo doesn't work in concert with anything. Placebo is the recipient's faith. It's not because we, don't have, it's because we, can't have "the science", to establish some sort of epistemic or metaphysical certainty regarding religion (whatever that means).Slopeshoulder wrote:I haven't read the thread, but here's my 2 cents:
Placebo's "work" in concert with the recipient's faith. As we don't have the science to establish some sort of epistemic or metaphysical certainty regarding religion, we can say that religion is an orientation that works with our moral and aesthetic sense, our intuition, our hearts, our non-linear reasoning. I'm fine with that. No more no less.
So:
- it works for many people, with minimal invasiveness, which is the point
- it requires a mindset to work
- unlike medicine, we don't have the science to affirm or deny the "reality" that it may point to, so placebo is only partly successful as an analogy
Neo-pragmatism combined with wonder and respect for the human heart are not new to the discussion of religion, nor are they a recipe for hoodwinking ourselves. So what's the problem?
There is no such thing as "epistimic or metaphysical certainty" regarding anything. These two things don't even exist!!! They're just words!!! To use those words as an adjective to religion is outragious!!
Don't let Slopeshoulder's good name fool you. He hasn't said anything I haven't already said;
-It works for many people with minimal invasiveness. Duhh!
-It requires a mindset to work. Duhh!
I agree with, and have said both of those things. Unfortunately for Slopeshoulder, we know that sugar pills are full of sugar, so we do have the science to affirm or deny the "reality" that placebo may point to.
Placebo is well understood. Placebo is faith based. Placebo and prayer are the same thing. Prayer is placebo
Post #119
Placebo doesn't work in concert with anything. Placebo is the recipient's faith. It's not because we, don't have, it's because we, can't have "the science", to establish some sort of epistemic or metaphysical certainty regarding religion (whatever that means).Slopeshoulder wrote:I haven't read the thread, but here's my 2 cents:
Placebo's "work" in concert with the recipient's faith. As we don't have the science to establish some sort of epistemic or metaphysical certainty regarding religion, we can say that religion is an orientation that works with our moral and aesthetic sense, our intuition, our hearts, our non-linear reasoning. I'm fine with that. No more no less.
So:
- it works for many people, with minimal invasiveness, which is the point
- it requires a mindset to work
- unlike medicine, we don't have the science to affirm or deny the "reality" that it may point to, so placebo is only partly successful as an analogy
Neo-pragmatism combined with wonder and respect for the human heart are not new to the discussion of religion, nor are they a recipe for hoodwinking ourselves. So what's the problem?
There is no such thing as "epistimic or metaphysical certainty" regarding anything. These two things don't even exist!!! They're just words!!! To use those words as an adjective to religion is outragious!!
Don't let Slopeshoulder's good name fool you. He hasn't said anything I haven't already said;
-It works for many people with minimal invasiveness. Duhh!
-It requires a mindset to work. Duhh!
I agree with, and have said both of those things. Unfortunately for Slopeshoulder, we know that sugar pills are full of sugar, so we do have the science to affirm or deny the "reality" that placebo may point to.
Placebo is well understood. Placebo is faith based. Placebo and prayer are the same thing. Prayer is placebo
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David 2.0
