Evidence, schmevidence and the extraordinary

[Awediot]

"I believe in God."


Is that a "claim"? ...Sort of. But a claim seems to imply I want you to believe too, and am ready, willing and able to try and convince you by providing reasons and evidence why you should believe too... Well, half right.

This infamous, under AND overestimated thing called "evidence" comes with some sometimes spoken, always implied qualifiers... It must be "sufficient" enough to "convince", and appropriately "extraordinary" while at the same time "rational" enough to essentially remove all doubt, or "prove" God on a case by case basis... If it's not, it doesn't qualify, is considered too 'personal' and isn't useful enough to be deemed real "evidence" at all...(except maybe to that particular theist, who we all know is just making it up anyway...seeing what they want to.)

So if asked what sort or amount of "evidence" the person wants, either it is spectacular and impossible for a mere human to produce (esp. over the internet), or they aren't sure...but if you don't produce it, you fail to meet your responsibility to back up your claim...even if all you did was say what you believe.

Then as the cherry on top, ANYTHING might actually be Aliens, or some terrorist secret weapon, or food poisoning or a brain tumor, or..or...amazing, but NOT GOD anyway...

It's a catch 22... I cannot produce the required miracle, or define what the person is demanding if they them self don't even know, or even if presented written in the clouds, then prove it really is GOD... It is impossible to present such "evidence" on demand with any realistic thought it will do any good. Ever... It never has been sufficient for the person asking for it, or they'd be a theist. That the latest request would be the one that turns them into a Believer, is a pretty silly expectation and both sides no it...yet, what else can we do?

Evidence for God, for a Spiritual Reality, is non-transferable, personal, empirical...and ultimately up to God, not us to give. Like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder... Knowing this as a FACT (don't ask for evidence of that either please), I give up. Sort of... I know what I have to offer, what has shown me (me, personally) God, won't do the same for you. It can also be seen as evidence I'm crazy or stupid, immature or brainwashed...and it will be, It always is... So, I won't simply give a list anymore. Stop asking please...

This will be taken as a dodge...either because I don't actually have any, or I'm ashamed as I know it is so weak, this is an elaborate excuse and the atheist chalks it up as a "win" for some reason...

Normally that ends it...to which I must reply...



Find Your Hand in a Dream



...o kay... Odd...

Extra-ordinary even.

How is that "evidence"?

Well, do it...and you tell me what you get out of it... Then, we'll go from there. It won't show you God, but if you accomplish it, I guarantee it will show you how it is that people can think they have found Him. Your paradigm will shift...and I have to caution, you might not like it.

Now, lets discuss the nature of your willingness to try or not...

[Artie]

He has objective evidence of his wife's actions. Could it mean it's not genuine.. Maybe. However, I find that long term deception with that emotion is hard to maintain. and people actions reflect their true feelings. Does he have evidence of his wife actions?? Yes, yes he does.

Now, what evidence do we have of the claimed actions of any deity, or that the deity actually did that action? Absolutely none.

He's simply misrepresenting me to be able to refute something I haven't said so I have given up on him. The biggest problem I see here is that he wants people to use methods of self-discovery that might lead to dire consequences for people with open or latent personality disorders or people having problems discerning fantasy from reality.

[Awediot]

Artie,

What good would it do anyone if I just find out something that only subjectively applies to me and nobody else and is not objectively true? What would be the point?

If it just applies to me and isn't provable to be objectively true and therefore valuable to everybody else what's the point of it?

No, it would have to be shown to be objectively true. I will not under any circumstance believe in Santa Claus unless shown irrefutable evidence that he exists.

According to your own logic Artie, I have no reason to believe that your spouse cares about/loves (semantics) you... You cannot show me it is objectively true....and go so far as to ask "what would be the point?" -if she does-, since it is not an objective fact everyone can share in.

It's a ridiculous premise...and a specious way to dismiss God.


And YES! 'Proof' and "sufficient, objective evidence" get flipped around and marbled together in these discussions... That is what the entire OP is about... YOU and ME get to define those terms in our heads.... I find atheists will settle for nothing less than undeniable PROOF of God, they just call it something else to make themselves look more open minded...

Then, when asked what this "Proof" (call it what you want) might look like, or how they could distinguish it from something else (The Matrix, a brain tumor, secret weapon) they have no idea...and on top of that, when asked how it would change their life, frequently the only reply is 'it wouldn't'...

It is indicative of DISALLOWANCE, not just disbelief... No such evidence that could convince you (short of God performing a spiritual lobotomy) exists... Everything is disqualified except what is possible only to God, and when one answers it wouldn't change anything anyway (I don't know what your response to that would be) it effectively tells Him not to bother.

[Awediot]

The biggest problem I see here is that he wants people to use methods of self-discovery that might lead to dire consequences for people with open or latent personality disorders or people having problems discerning fantasy from reality.

SO...if you discover something 'spiritual' about reality, it means you have a 'latent personality disorder' or have a hard time distinguishing reality from fantasy...

Or YOUR version of reality...from what you disallow being true...

This is what you mean by "intellectual integrity"... If you find God you must be nuts? (mental hospital has been mentioned)...

Pure atheistic dogmatism right down the line...

When all you got is logic, you get incredibly predictable

Spock was a bore.


...anything BUT the slightest effort to even discuss the Dream Hand thing... Sorry, but it's evidence to me you don't want to find God and avoid any path that might lead you to Him.

[Awediot]

Now, what evidence do we have of the claimed actions of any deity, or that the deity actually did that action? Absolutely none.

You don't (apparently). I do (as do most theists, else they wouldn't believe)...

[Goat]

Now, what evidence do we have of the claimed actions of any deity, or that the deity actually did that action? Absolutely none.

You don't (apparently). I do (as do most theists, else they wouldn't believe)...

You have some subjective experiences ..

However, you don't have anything that I need to accept evidence. The criteria I have to accept evidence as valid is 'The Show Me' test. In the hypothetical case of a wife's feelings for her husband, we have at least the objective evidence of 'how does she treat him',. and her actions as an indicator.

Those actions can be presented to others as 'show me'.

Now, I find the people who want to believe anything they want, no matter how odd just don't like that criteria. Of course, they want to believe something that they don't have the evidence that they can show me.

[Awediot]

Now, I find the people who want to believe anything they want, no matter how odd just don't like that criteria. Of course, they want to believe something that they don't have the evidence that they can show me.

How do I know you are not one who want's to believe God is just fiction?

[Goat]

Now, I find the people who want to believe anything they want, no matter how odd just don't like that criteria. Of course, they want to believe something that they don't have the evidence that they can show me.

How do I know you are not one who want's to believe God is just fiction?

And, how does that matter at all? Does my want or desire affect your ability to provide evidence you can SHOW ME? I mean, there is the one type of evidence that is 'I got a feeling', and there is another type of evidence 'Here is the data, and why I think it indicates this'.

The defensive reaction I see is evidence to me that the person doesn't have any 'show me' evidence for their claim.

[Awediot]

The defensive reaction I see is evidence to me that the person doesn't have any 'show me' evidence for their claim.

I DON'T

Ta Da!! Now, why would I be in anyway defensive when this very OP begins with the stated fact EVIDENCE regarding GOD or the Supernatural doesn't work that way?

Why do you think I've gone to the lengths to present "lucid dreaming", a naturally subjective experience, as the last ditch effort at supplying YOU (few who still need it) such weird evidence?

It's not to keep me convinced... I've found God to be self evident for as long as I can remember...and I tried to be an atheist for years.

If you don't even want to try it, don't. No skin off my nose. You are the one asking me for a specific kind of evidence YOU KNOW I cannot provide...and that is the only kind you will accept... And since I can't, God must not exist.

Nice job... Tell Him when you see Him. ..,Any more, I don't particularly care if you believe or not... It's not my job to make you...

[Awediot]

And, how does that matter at all? Does my want or desire affect your ability to provide evidence you can SHOW ME?

Oh...and yes.

[Goat]

The defensive reaction I see is evidence to me that the person doesn't have any 'show me' evidence for their claim.

I DON'T

Ta Da!! Now, why would I be in anyway defensive when this very OP begins with the stated fact EVIDENCE regarding GOD or the Supernatural doesn't work that way?

Why do you think I've gone to the lengths to present "lucid dreaming", a naturally subjective experience, as the last ditch effort at supplying YOU (few who still need it) such weird evidence?

It's not to keep me convinced... I've found God to be self evident for as long as I can remember...and I tried to be an atheist for years.

If you don't even want to try it, don't. No skin off my nose. You are the one asking me for a specific kind of evidence YOU KNOW I cannot provide...and that is the only kind you will accept... And since I can't, God must not exist.

Nice job... Tell Him when you see Him. ..,Any more, I don't particularly care if you believe or not... It's not my job to make you...

Why would lucid dreaming be evidence of anything going on except in your brain?

As for 'tell him when you see him', other than your personal believe, how do you know there is a 'him' at all?

I personally don't care if you 'found god' at all.. as long as you keep your religious beliefs off the laws that effect me.