Is Precision in Nature Evidence of God or Evolution?

[Alter2Ego]

[font=Verdana]For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Websters New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopdia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


QUESTIONS FOR DEBATE:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?

3. Evolution relies upon things happening by chance aka at random. If evolution were a fact, how does it account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"? [/font]

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 16:

There is extraordinary amount of proof of God's existence. Take, for example, the Sun. It is a star that is so huge that over 1,300,000 of our earth could fit inside it. At its core, the sun is about 27,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

You use ambiguous terms such as "so huge", "over 1,300,000" and "about".

Do you see that you're building an argument from precision using anything but precision?

Imagine what would happen to life on earth if the sun had not been placed at that distance.

It would likely be built for a colder or hotter environment, depending on that distance.

The sun emits healthful rays and deadly ones. But when the lethal rays strike earth's upper atmosphere, they cause ordinary oxygen to turn into ozone. The resulting ozone layer absorbs the sun's lethal rays and protects life on earth just like an umbrella.

Man killed by umbrella.

Are you certain you wanna hold to your analogy?

Added to that is the fact that the earth rotates on its axis once a day...

How might a planet ever rotate on its axis more than once a day?

at the right speed, to produce moderate temperatures.

Try gettin' that'n by the eskimos.

Venus takes 243 days to rotate.

That you compare a day here to conclude that life can't exist on Venus, or to show Earth to be somehow extra hospitable to life which has adapted to live here, is a measure of your faulty analysis. And your incredulity.

If earth rotated too slowly, it would remain hot for too long in certain places and cold for too long in other places.

Ever see a polar bear march through Texas? Ever see a camel march to the North Pole?

Life has adapted to suit its particular environments.

The prolonged extremes in temperature would kill us.

They do now!

Heat kills 22.

Cold kills 40.

Finally, although much of our Milky Way galaxy is evidently not designed to accommodate life...

Notice the "not designed" part there. Are you gonna now tell us all about the wonderful banana?

our solar system is situated in an ideal location.

Any sentient animal will marvel at just how great a deal they have it in their neck of the universe. Until their Charles Darwin comes along.

For example, Jupiter, which is more than 1,000 times the size of Earth, has a tremendous gravitational force that enables it to DEFLECT objects that speed through space TOWARDS EARTH.

While Earth does some deflecting right back at Jupiter.

Add to that the Moon. Not only does the Moon beautify the sky...

Tell that to the astronomer that has to close up shop every few weeks or so.

and provide light at night, it also holds the earth at a constant, steady tilt.

The tilt (obliquity) of the planet varies. (That means it is imprecise)

and provide light at night, it also holds the earth at a constant, steady tilt. That tilt gives the earth its stable, predictable seasons. Could all of this precision--in which the slightest mistake or variation would have been deadly for life on earth--have happened without intelligent direction, in fact, by evolutionary ACCIDENTS?

Your problem here is in thinking this is an "accident", when it's a result of things acting according to their properties.

Prior to the 17th century, none of the best scientific minds could explain what causes the earth to be positioned in a stable orbit.
...

That entire paragraph is an argument from incredulity.

Who provided the intelligent direction that can be seen in the laws of gravity and speed, so that the planets work to our advantage?

Asking "who" instead of "how" indicates you approach this from a human-centric perspective, and is indicative of those who support the god concept.

As astrophysicist Alan Lightman commented: "[scientists] find it mysterious...

Yet another argument from incredulity.

Little wonder then that God inspired Moses...

I challenge you to show a God has done anything.

1st challenge.

[Artie]

No amount of physics can explain why things in nature are so precise. Physics explains causes and effects in certain instances--which is a far cry from explaining the cause, the reason, for instance, why the first 60 elements on the Periodic Table of planet earth are ALL interrelated.

I have noticed that you don't answer all my points so I think we should start from the beginning and go point by point so that you can answer each point using logic and reason. You appear to hold for a FACT that there is something called elements and that there are 60 or more of them. Can you explain in detail WHY you hold for a FACT that there is something called elements and explain to us what you believe they are?

[Alter2Ego]

No amount of physics can explain why things in nature are so precise. Physics explains causes and effects in certain instances--which is a far cry from explaining the cause, the reason, for instance, why the first 60 elements on the Periodic Table of planet earth are ALL interrelated.

I have noticed that you don't answer all my points so I think we should start from the beginning and go point by point so that you can answer each point using logic and reason. You appear to hold for a FACT that there is something called elements and that there are 60 or more of them. Can you explain in detail WHY you hold for a FACT that there is something called elements and explain to us what you believe they are?

[font=Verdana]ALTER2EGO -to- ARTIE:
Which points are you saying I didn't answer? Perhaps I overlooked something.

Below are a couple of websites that will give you info about the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. More than 60 elements have now been discovered. They are all related to each other according to atomic weight. The elements are so precisely related to each other that certain elements that were missing from the chart were predicted to exist. Even their atomic weight was predicted. The missing elements were later discovered, with the exact predicted atomic weight.

Accidental events in which things happen haphazardly--without direction (meaning an intelligent person did not intervene and guide the results)--could not possibly have resulted in such precision. No mathematician in his/her right mind that uses mathematical probabilities to decide if certain things can occur at random would argue that these elements on the Periodic Table could have resulted by chance. Arguing that two elements could match up without intelligent direction is hard enough to prove, but we're talking over 60 elements that are all related to each other!

I will present mathematical arguments at a later date on the impossibility of certain precise events occurring without intelligent direction.[/font]

http://www.chemicool.com/
http://chemistry.about.com/library/blperiodictable.htm

[bernee51]

Below are a couple of websites that will give you info about the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. More than 60 elements have now been discovered. They are all related to each other according to atomic weight. The elements are so precisely related to each other that certain elements that were missing from the chart were predicted to exist. Even their atomic weight was predicted. The missing elements were later discovered, with the exact predicted atomic weight.

Accidental events in which things happen haphazardly--without direction (meaning an intelligent person did not intervene and guide the results)--could not possibly have resulted in such precision. No mathematician in his/her right mind that uses mathematical probabilities to decide if certain things can occur at random would argue that these elements on the Periodic Table could have resulted by chance. Arguing that two elements could match up without intelligent direction is hard enough to prove, but we're talking over 60 elements that are all related to each other!

I will present mathematical arguments at a later date on the impossibility of certain precise events occurring without intelligent direction.[/color][/size][/font]

http://www.chemicool.com/
http://chemistry.about.com/library/blperiodictable.htm

You personal incredility is noted....as is you inabiliy to use the quote function to at least make your posts somewhat legible...at least..

The process by which these eleemts came together is our old friend evolution...which is a process of inclusion and transcendence. Milleseconds after of the expnsion of the universe it was a 'cloud' if you like of superhot, super motile sub-atomic particles. There is a tendency, observed in nature, for what Teilhard de Chardin (look him up - a Jesuit priest/paleontologist who wrote the classic Phenomenon of Man) for complexification. These subatomic particles coalescecd into the basic element of the universe...hydrogen. As more and more hydrogen coalesced huge balls of the stuff developed which we not call stars. At the centre of these stars the heat and pressure brought togther elemental hydrogen to first form helium, then lithium, then beryllium, then boron and so on through the elemental table.

What happened then...the star went supernova, spewing out these elements into space. Again coalescence occurs to bring about the formation of planets. Coalescence occurs to bring about the formation of simple, then complex molecules, and simple and complex life.

So your 'without direction' is incorrect, the process is self-directed. Hydrogen is included in and transcended by helium which is included in and transcended by beryllium...and so on..all the way up the table.

No magic required to explain, just the evolutionary urge that has been active for 16.4 billion years and which we are the emergent aspect off.

All the vast majority of wisdom texts, of which the bible is just one, were written before any of this was understood. As Julian Huxley noted, we, homo sapiens, are evolution become aware of itself. Not only are we evolving but we know we are evolving and can consciously contribute to that evolution.

BTW the word theory refers to a proposed explanation of observed facts. It is not synonymous with 'afactual' .

may yyou be happy, kind, loving and peaceful.

[Artie]

alter2ego:

If you don't know how and why the 60 elements you speak of are interconnected simply ask us and we will explain it to you. You have to stop claiming that there aren't any logical and reasonable and scientific explanations because there are. You are just making yourself look ignorant because you seem to be unaware of the explanations. Now berniee51 has explained to you why and how they are interconnected. If you have any more questions we will be happy to explain in more detail. You see, just because you don't know doesn't mean that it isn't known! Just ask and we'll explain!

[Janx]

[font=Verdana]For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Websters New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us.

Hi Alter2Ego,

You are mis-defining the natural world as "precise without chance".

Natural events can appear precise but precision does not necessitate intent.

Take a chance event such as accidentally dropping a quarter which falls through a quarter sized hole in a manhole cover never to be seen again.

Here we have a precise event which happened by chance. Neither the coin, the hole, gravity or the person who dropped were precise in their intent. Yet the event appears precise because had any of these elements been even slightly different the outcome would have been different.

So I'll grant you that there is precision in nature but you have to show that it didn't happen by chance - or that this precision was the intent of a God.

Cheers