My faith is hanging by a thread-are there sufficient answers

[sleepthroughthestatic]

This is literally the exact email I sent to my Christian philosophy teacher (I go to a very serious Christian high school). One of my comments about not wanting to discuss this with others has actually kept me from even posting on forums, but this is a debate forum...so I guess it's okay...I really need to start looking outward from myself. Just looking for additional input...thanks. If I get responses, I will probably question them...so be prepared, I'm not looking for a quick answer that gives me some vague hope. I want it to be able to sustain itself against criticisms and still hold water. Also, I'm not really looking for an atheist to come in here and say "this is what it feels like to be logical, it's always interested to see people cope with their shattered faith, etc etc". Please spare me that. And yes I realize the email probably sounds pathetic and idiotic to someone who hasn't been here, and will only use this as evidence to fuel their angst against religion...


"Hey, I decided I wanted to send an email. I find writing to be the more
clear way of communicating, and when dealing with such a profoundly
meaningful subject, I want to ensure both of us are saying what we want to
say--having time to think it through and communicate it in the manner that
we wish.

First, theres a few things I want to say. I dont want you to feel bad or
anything, like you caused me to stumble. Ive been having doubts for
literally years, but I always seem to bounce back based mostly on
emotion, vague answers, or practicality. I dont usually discuss these
doubts with anyone, because Im very afraid that I will ask questions,
people will not have the answers, and then I will cause them to stumble
and ultimately lose their faith. And, from a human standpoint, I think
Christianity is a very good thing that allows people to live with a
feeling of purpose and happiness (even if I dont necessarily believe it
to be divinely true). Even if it wasnt true, I wouldnt want to take that
away from someone. If it is true, I especially dont want to take that
away from them. So its generally a lose-lose situation. However, you have
obviously already thought about these things and I dont feel Im in
danger of messing up your life.

Also, don't be too alarmed. I'm not on the brink of going off the deep
end, I'm not going to start living like a depraved animal if I suddenly
lose my faith. I thoroughly buy into Christianity from a moral and
lifestyle perspective, and regardless of my personal belief in God, I will
continue to live my life the way that I see to be the correct way (moral,
compassionate, empathetic, etc--the way I've been raised, that is,
Christian). Nobody else even has a slight clue that I have any doubt, and
I consider this, obviously, confidential. I don't think, even if I
completely rejected Christianity, that I would ever even tell my
parents--it would be a selfish thing to do that would only serve to worry
and crush them.

I feel like I believe in Christianity with my heart, but less and less do
I believe it with my mind. Which makes for a very weak faith, one based on
works and fueled by self-aware delusion. So I really do need to work out
what I truly believe. But this is not just a small stumbling block, I've
had those. This is a culmination of stumbling blocks, and I've tripped so
many times that I'm starting to wonder why I keep getting back up. How
much should I have to work, rationalize, and conjure up reasons to believe
in God? Should not God have made it obvious, if He were real? I've read
the books. I've read Why I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, I've
read books by Lee Strobel, I've done my homework. To end this long
introduction, I believe you mentioned in class, when discussing God's
sovereignty versus human free-will, that one must pick the one that best
fits the data (the data being the Bible of course). Well, you left out the
third option. That God is...imaginary. That seems to fit the data with
little contradiction. I cant be a true Christian as long I believe that
in the back of mind.

Now, this leads to current, primary issue.

Here is what is what the Bible states:


1. God knows absolutely everything, that is, was, ever will be.
2. God created literally everything.
3. If one does not meet Gods criteria (ie: accept Christ), you are
literally tortured forever.

When creating the universe, God knew man would fall. He had complete
knowledge that man would rebel, and billions of people would be RUTHLESSLY
TORTURED for ETERNITY as a result--every single nuance of his design for
Creation impacted the eternal destiny of people. But God created us
anyway. And why? Because he wanted to be loved? Worshiped? No one really
has a reason. And I cant think of a reason that would come anywhere near
justifying the ruthless, eternal torture of your own creation. Your own
creation that is in an environment in which they did not choose to be, an
environment where the outcome is already established, an environment in
which God setup the rules. Even if it is their choice to go to Hell
(which is questionable due to the Bible explicitly driving home the point
of Gods sovereignty), I do not see how it is justified. I do not want
rhetoric about how God gives us all a chance. Tell me, if you were about
to have a son, but you knew your son would go on to make bad decisions and
eventually end up burned and tormented for eternity, would you still go
ahead and have your son? No, you would do the loving thing and stop it
from happening. Anyone who didnt would be rightfully called an evil,
egotistical, psychopath. And that is the reality of the situation, there
is no way around it with Christian doctrine. Somewhere along the way, it
cannot be right. It completely contradicts the image of a benevolent,
loving God. And the kicker, all of this can be applied to Satan and his
fallen angels.

And then further problems pile on. God decides to literally wipe out the
Earth in an act of mass genocide, literally killing every person and
animal and living thing on the Earth barring one family and a collection
of animals. This could perhaps make sense if God simply didnt know what
was going to happen, but He did. And it is completely illogical. When God
was making the world, he knew if he set it up this way, that this would
happen, and he would have to do this. That makes no sense. And then, to
fix it all (which, was actually by design because he knew it would
happen), he decides to send his Son to be crucified and redeem us of our
sins. But if for some reason we decide we dont believe in it (and being
completely honest, there are a LOT of reasons to reject it), we are BURNED
ALIVE FOREVER. And thats not even taking into account that you dont even
believe we really have a choice to be saved, but rather all of us would
burn if God didnt arbitrarily decide which ones to save from the
deathtrap that he designed and put us in. The Bible says it is our very
nature to sin, we cannot help it, we are born into it--we have no chance
from the beginning unless youre one of the lucky few who wins the
salvation lottery when God drew numbers before he created humanity. Can
you honestly tell me where Im wrong here? Can you truthfully admit all of
this and still hold the belief that God is just and loving? Your analogy
that God is still just, like a police officer stopping only certain people
for speeding tickets does not hold up. For one, in this situation, the
police officer is the one who designed them to speed and are born with an
innate, unavoidable nature to speed. And yes, it is unjust if you only
punish some and not others for no reason. If both your children misbehave
and make the same mistake (that is, being a sinner), and you mercilessly
beat and torture one and give the other one a hug, yes, that is most
assuredly injustice. Youd probably have your children taken away from
you.

Its like, once I remove God from the equation, everything falls into
line. I realize the following can be rationalized, but if they dont have
to be, if the core of Christianity doesnt make sense then everything
becomes easy. Why is there evil? God isnt real. Why is there suffering?
God isnt real. Why doesnt God make his existence obvious? God isnt
real. Why does God appoint all authority, even authority that ends up
brutally murdering millions for no reason? God isnt real. Why are there
passages in the Old Testament that make God seem really bad? God is not
real.

I do not want rhetoric about us being the clay or a fool says in his
heart God there is no God and not having the right to question Gods
ways. It doesnt hold up. God apparently gave us a brain, I cannot be
faulted for using it. Im trying to determine if the Bible is actually
true, and going back to the Bible is circular logic. Surely God would not
expect me to delude myself in order to believe divine, life-saving truth.
My reasons to believe in God are hanging by a thread. My best evidence is
the experience of others. My parents, and others I genuinely trust, have
told me about experiences they swear actually happened, and if they did,
either had to have been God or extreme self-delusion. My parents claim to
have seen a fog in their bedroom while intense prayer, Ive heard
countless stories of extreme coincidences. But can I really base my faith
on the subjective, biased experiences of others? Im inclined to say no.
Ive never experienced God, despite all my efforts and sincere prayer to
do His will (I assure you it was not at all done with a selfish or
doubtful attitude). There are a few other interesting reasons, like
prophecies, but I havent researched it much and Id imagine most are
disputed, its worth looking into but it doesnt erase the bigger problems
Ive talked about above.

So thats my problem. I apologize if I wrote that a little bit heated, Im
just pretty frustrated. Its not like Ive never believed in God. I pretty
much always have, and Ive been, at points, absolutely devout, dedicating
my life and having a genuine love and desire to serve Him. These are not
doubts out of some ulterior motive, I dont want to go drink and
fornicate. It is genuine intellectual inquiry. The weird thing is, I still
want to go to church and youth group, and marry a nice Christian girl and
live a good Christian life, helping others. Maybe Ill just end up living
like one regardless, trying not to think about the utter hypocrisy and
absurdity that would be. If you see me praying or something, I hope you
dont think Im necessarily think Im a huge fake idiot, even if I am...my
opinions are subject to change (whether through logic or not)...I have
never come close to opening up like this about these kind of things to
anyone so Im a bit apprehensive..."

[Clownboat]

This is literally the exact email I sent to my Christian philosophy teacher (I go to a very serious Christian high school). One of my comments about not wanting to discuss this with others has actually kept me from even posting on forums, but this is a debate forum...so I guess it's okay...I really need to start looking outward from myself. Just looking for additional input...thanks. If I get responses, I will probably question them...so be prepared, I'm not looking for a quick answer that gives me some vague hope. I want it to be able to sustain itself against criticisms and still hold water. Also, I'm not really looking for an atheist to come in here and say "this is what it feels like to be logical, it's always interested to see people cope with their shattered faith, etc etc". Please spare me that. And yes I realize the email probably sounds pathetic and idiotic to someone who hasn't been here, and will only use this as evidence to fuel their angst against religion...


"Hey, I decided I wanted to send an email. I find writing to be the more
clear way of communicating, and when dealing with such a profoundly
meaningful subject, I want to ensure both of us are saying what we want to
say--having time to think it through and communicate it in the manner that
we wish.

First, theres a few things I want to say. I dont want you to feel bad or
anything, like you caused me to stumble. Ive been having doubts for
literally years, but I always seem to bounce back based mostly on
emotion, vague answers, or practicality. I dont usually discuss these
doubts with anyone, because Im very afraid that I will ask questions,
people will not have the answers, and then I will cause them to stumble
and ultimately lose their faith. And, from a human standpoint, I think
Christianity is a very good thing that allows people to live with a
feeling of purpose and happiness (even if I dont necessarily believe it
to be divinely true). Even if it wasnt true, I wouldnt want to take that
away from someone. If it is true, I especially dont want to take that
away from them. So its generally a lose-lose situation. However, you have
obviously already thought about these things and I dont feel Im in
danger of messing up your life.

Also, don't be too alarmed. I'm not on the brink of going off the deep
end, I'm not going to start living like a depraved animal if I suddenly
lose my faith. I thoroughly buy into Christianity from a moral and
lifestyle perspective, and regardless of my personal belief in God, I will
continue to live my life the way that I see to be the correct way (moral,
compassionate, empathetic, etc--the way I've been raised, that is,
Christian). Nobody else even has a slight clue that I have any doubt, and
I consider this, obviously, confidential. I don't think, even if I
completely rejected Christianity, that I would ever even tell my
parents--it would be a selfish thing to do that would only serve to worry
and crush them.

I feel like I believe in Christianity with my heart, but less and less do
I believe it with my mind. Which makes for a very weak faith, one based on
works and fueled by self-aware delusion. So I really do need to work out
what I truly believe. But this is not just a small stumbling block, I've
had those. This is a culmination of stumbling blocks, and I've tripped so
many times that I'm starting to wonder why I keep getting back up. How
much should I have to work, rationalize, and conjure up reasons to believe
in God? Should not God have made it obvious, if He were real? I've read
the books. I've read Why I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, I've
read books by Lee Strobel, I've done my homework. To end this long
introduction, I believe you mentioned in class, when discussing God's
sovereignty versus human free-will, that one must pick the one that best
fits the data (the data being the Bible of course). Well, you left out the
third option. That God is...imaginary. That seems to fit the data with
little contradiction. I cant be a true Christian as long I believe that
in the back of mind.

Now, this leads to current, primary issue.

Here is what is what the Bible states:


1. God knows absolutely everything, that is, was, ever will be.
2. God created literally everything.
3. If one does not meet Gods criteria (ie: accept Christ), you are
literally tortured forever.

When creating the universe, God knew man would fall. He had complete
knowledge that man would rebel, and billions of people would be RUTHLESSLY
TORTURED for ETERNITY as a result--every single nuance of his design for
Creation impacted the eternal destiny of people. But God created us
anyway. And why? Because he wanted to be loved? Worshiped? No one really
has a reason. And I cant think of a reason that would come anywhere near
justifying the ruthless, eternal torture of your own creation. Your own
creation that is in an environment in which they did not choose to be, an
environment where the outcome is already established, an environment in
which God setup the rules. Even if it is their choice to go to Hell
(which is questionable due to the Bible explicitly driving home the point
of Gods sovereignty), I do not see how it is justified. I do not want
rhetoric about how God gives us all a chance. Tell me, if you were about
to have a son, but you knew your son would go on to make bad decisions and
eventually end up burned and tormented for eternity, would you still go
ahead and have your son? No, you would do the loving thing and stop it
from happening. Anyone who didnt would be rightfully called an evil,
egotistical, psychopath. And that is the reality of the situation, there
is no way around it with Christian doctrine. Somewhere along the way, it
cannot be right. It completely contradicts the image of a benevolent,
loving God. And the kicker, all of this can be applied to Satan and his
fallen angels.

And then further problems pile on. God decides to literally wipe out the
Earth in an act of mass genocide, literally killing every person and
animal and living thing on the Earth barring one family and a collection
of animals. This could perhaps make sense if God simply didnt know what
was going to happen, but He did. And it is completely illogical. When God
was making the world, he knew if he set it up this way, that this would
happen, and he would have to do this. That makes no sense. And then, to
fix it all (which, was actually by design because he knew it would
happen), he decides to send his Son to be crucified and redeem us of our
sins. But if for some reason we decide we dont believe in it (and being
completely honest, there are a LOT of reasons to reject it), we are BURNED
ALIVE FOREVER. And thats not even taking into account that you dont even
believe we really have a choice to be saved, but rather all of us would
burn if God didnt arbitrarily decide which ones to save from the
deathtrap that he designed and put us in. The Bible says it is our very
nature to sin, we cannot help it, we are born into it--we have no chance
from the beginning unless youre one of the lucky few who wins the
salvation lottery when God drew numbers before he created humanity. Can
you honestly tell me where Im wrong here? Can you truthfully admit all of
this and still hold the belief that God is just and loving? Your analogy
that God is still just, like a police officer stopping only certain people
for speeding tickets does not hold up. For one, in this situation, the
police officer is the one who designed them to speed and are born with an
innate, unavoidable nature to speed. And yes, it is unjust if you only
punish some and not others for no reason. If both your children misbehave
and make the same mistake (that is, being a sinner), and you mercilessly
beat and torture one and give the other one a hug, yes, that is most
assuredly injustice. Youd probably have your children taken away from
you.

Its like, once I remove God from the equation, everything falls into
line. I realize the following can be rationalized, but if they dont have
to be, if the core of Christianity doesnt make sense then everything
becomes easy. Why is there evil? God isnt real. Why is there suffering?
God isnt real. Why doesnt God make his existence obvious? God isnt
real. Why does God appoint all authority, even authority that ends up
brutally murdering millions for no reason? God isnt real. Why are there
passages in the Old Testament that make God seem really bad? God is not
real.

I do not want rhetoric about us being the clay or a fool says in his
heart God there is no God and not having the right to question Gods
ways. It doesnt hold up. God apparently gave us a brain, I cannot be
faulted for using it. Im trying to determine if the Bible is actually
true, and going back to the Bible is circular logic. Surely God would not
expect me to delude myself in order to believe divine, life-saving truth.
My reasons to believe in God are hanging by a thread. My best evidence is
the experience of others. My parents, and others I genuinely trust, have
told me about experiences they swear actually happened, and if they did,
either had to have been God or extreme self-delusion. My parents claim to
have seen a fog in their bedroom while intense prayer, Ive heard
countless stories of extreme coincidences. But can I really base my faith
on the subjective, biased experiences of others? Im inclined to say no.
Ive never experienced God, despite all my efforts and sincere prayer to
do His will (I assure you it was not at all done with a selfish or
doubtful attitude). There are a few other interesting reasons, like
prophecies, but I havent researched it much and Id imagine most are
disputed, its worth looking into but it doesnt erase the bigger problems
Ive talked about above.

So thats my problem. I apologize if I wrote that a little bit heated, Im
just pretty frustrated. Its not like Ive never believed in God. I pretty
much always have, and Ive been, at points, absolutely devout, dedicating
my life and having a genuine love and desire to serve Him. These are not
doubts out of some ulterior motive, I dont want to go drink and
fornicate. It is genuine intellectual inquiry. The weird thing is, I still
want to go to church and youth group, and marry a nice Christian girl and
live a good Christian life, helping others. Maybe Ill just end up living
like one regardless, trying not to think about the utter hypocrisy and
absurdity that would be. If you see me praying or something, I hope you
dont think Im necessarily think Im a huge fake idiot, even if I am...my
opinions are subject to change (whether through logic or not)...I have
never come close to opening up like this about these kind of things to
anyone so Im a bit apprehensive..."

Jesus taught faith. The Bible teaches faith.

Do you understand the importance of this...? Of course it takes faith to even believe in GOD. GOD knows this. It's by design.

Let me ask you this. If GOD were to show up, how would you react...? Seriously, how would you feel...? What would you do...?

Do you even think that you could even get a word out of your mouth that GOD wouldn't have known what you are going to say before you say it...?

If Jesus were to walk up to you today, would you recognize Him...? Can you see Him...?

Let me ask you this, do you ever talk to GOD...?

Take religion out of it.... Have you just ever opened up your heart and just talked to him. Told about your concerns, your desires, even confess your sin...?

Good morning Lord. How are you doing today...?

Lord, help me with my faith. Teach me the difference between faith and religion (religious acts, deeds, works that some feel that they score brownie points w/ GOD for doing)

Help me to know you and draw me closer to you. I love you.

Lord, I still struggle. I still stumble. Help me to know that you love me and to understand.

Father, I am struggling. My faith is weak but my heart is willing.

Father I need you, I want to feel you and know that you are close to me. Please keep me and guide me into your truth. Trusting in you and whom you've sent, Jesus Christ.

My heart cries out to you Lord.

In Jesus Christ Name I pray,
Amen

Would this not just be a form self brainwashing? That is what it seems like anyways.

If only the conversations weren't one-sided, then it could actually be a conversation, rather than just conditioning of the mind.

I feel that your example would help to bolster any religious feelings, not just Christianity, so I fail to see any significance.

[sleepthroughthestatic]

Wow, this topic got big. Firstly, thank you to everyone that has responded to me. I did read every message directed towards me and thought about each one. I'm thinking I'll go back and respond to them more specifically at some point, but it's already really late where I am right now. I honestly have avoided this thread because I had grown tired of thinking about religion. I was tired of being confused and depressed and I needed to re-establish some sense of normalcy in my life again. The last 4-7 months of my life have been somewhat mentally chaotic. I went from complete, dedicated, devout, on fire Christian over the summer to desolate, nihilistic, fatalistic, nearly suicidal atheist over a very short span of time. It was extremely abrupt and very strange because it was almost entirely internal. My social/family/school life has been very stable, and very great to be completely honest. So I'm very grateful I had that.

Ultimately, I talked to my mom about this whole thing (and just my mom). I finally started to break down a bit on the outside and that's when I knew I had to have a real, genuine discussion with someone that I cared about. I felt bad about it, because like I said, I thought it would be selfish to open up about it. I had to test the waters by saying I was doubting certain things (when actually, at the time, I had completely abandoned my faith), and she was shockingly receptive. I ended up telling her all of my thoughts, even showing her the same message I sent to my teacher that I posted on here. She was very supportive. Strangely so, actually, because apparently she is in a very similar place that I was (though less extreme). She has shared my very same problems in the past. She is still a believer, she believes there is a God, but she is now content with knowing that she will never know everything there is to know.

I've basically taken the same route, though I don't actively believe in God. My opinions and views are ever-changing, I realize, and I am not so absurd as to suggest I suddenly have everything figured out. If anything, this entire experience has retaught me how much I do not know and I remain open to possibilities. Here are actually some excerpts from a journal entry I wrote on February 15th--for anyone who is going through similar issues, I found solace in this line of thinking (and yes, I realize it can be critiqued, but at the end of the day it's what I currently am comfortable with believing):

"Today, towards the end of the day, I feel I had something of a small existential breakthrough. Two thoughts have been developing in my head throughout the day, and though they are perhaps extremely obvious in hindsight, I found them to be somewhat profound:

1. Though we cannot prove a higher power, it doesnt mean there ISNT one. There is SOME reason to believe in a higher power. I realize anecdotal evidence is frowned upon, but surely it has some merit--people are put to death on anecdotal evidence. My parents genuinely claim to have seen a fog whilst intense prayer--a visible, tangible fog and both claim to have seen it. Are they outlandish stories? Slightly. It is exactly the kind of story that people would cite as anecdotal garbage. But my parents have a sound mind. My mother is very genuinely open about what she believes--and it doesnt always line up conventional Christian thinking. She is open and clear about doubts she has and has never, never lied to me or manipulated me with the intent to get me to believe something false. Basically, there is no reason for her to lie about this. So either she and my dad are very delusional, or something inexplicable happened--God or some higher power being the only options that make any sense. Does this alone convince me? No. I realize experiences are subjective and that people have religious experiences across many different religions. But its worth noting. There are tons of stories of extreme coincidences that would seem to indicate Gods hand in peoples lives. Its not concrete evidence...but it certainly feels like something. Enough to say maybe. Enough to remind us that we dont have all the answers. We dont really know what happens when we die. Regardless of likelihood, we dont really know and we will never know until we die. Perhaps we merely turn to dust. Perhaps something we cannot even imagine happens. We are very finite beings, trying our absolute best to get a very, very limited grasp on an extraordinarily complex universe. Perhaps people have become a bit arrogant on how much knowledge we think we have. Now I suddenly believe in an infallible Bible or strictly the Christian God? Not really (I havent really for 3 months now). The possibility may be there. Perhaps God actually is in many religions, touching people across the world. Yes, the religions contradict each other in some very big areas, but perhaps they are merely humans trying to interpret a real God. Perhaps none of them are true. Perhaps one. Perhaps the real truth is one we havent even thought much of. What remains important is that you live your life in a way that you wont be ashamed of if you ever DID have to answer to a higher authority. When I die, I want to be able to look back and say in my genuine defense that I tried to know the truth, and I tried to live in a moral way. I know that somewhat idealizes my life, I know that I will always have moments of extreme selfishness and moments that I disgust myself. But that doesnt mean to stop trying. That doesnt mean I cant, on the whole, use my life in a way that positively impacts the world around me--God or no God, thats how I want to live. "

If anyone is curious, my teacher ended up somewhat responding, but not really. He ended up just telling me after class that we should meet in person to talk, but I really feel no need to as I didn't agree with where his emails were going anyway. Here are the messages he sent to those who are curious:

"Thank you for the emails and your open and honest words. You're right.
God gave you a brain and intends for you to use it - to love Him with
all your heart and all your mind. When considering such a monumental
question we must engage it with gravity and humility.
I welcome your direct and challenging words. Obviously I want you to
trust Jesus Christ and believe God is holy and good as I have.
However, outward action is the pretense of faith and a faith that has
never considered doubt is a weak faith.
I'll make you a promise if you'll make me one. I promise that this
conversation will stay between us and you can be as direct and honest
as you want to be. In this I am functioning as friend and brother, not
as teacher. I'll do this, if you promise to engage our discussion as
an honest seeker without predetermined conclusions in your mind. Deal?
I have many things I want to say in response to your emails but time
will not permit me a proper opportunity right now. I don't want to
dismiss your questions with trite platitudes. I will work on my
response tonight and tomorrow and have something to you by Sunday
night at the latest. I will give you my best reasons for believing God
is existent, holy and good. Then I think we need to chat in person if
at all possible.
Briefly though:
1. You have the information mostly but are addressing some of it in a
backward fashion.
2. You need to look at the intricacy and beauty of the universe
around you and determine if God's existence explains more of the data
or his non- existence. You say His non-existence does. I say that it
is crazy to say random chance produced this.
3. If then after 2 you conclude God exists, then you must address the
effort to understand him and his nature with humility since he is by
necessity infinite and you and I are most certainly finite. I'm not
saying don't ask the hard questions. I'm saying ask them understanding
that total clarity on all of them might not be possible.

Also, I'm pretty certain God can stand up to our questions. I think
God welcomes the honest doubter (Mark 9:24) but not the rebellious
self-appointed judge. For what it's worth, I'm quite certain you're
the former.

I'll write more soon."

"Vince,
First, please let me apologize for the delay in getting to you. My life
seems to go through cycles of regular busy and insane busy. The last month
has been the latter. If it doesn't seem like too much of a cop-out, the
delay is not because responding to you was unimportant, but to the
contrary, I think it is so important that the little 5-30 minute snatches
of time it seemed I could get were wholly inadequate...and so I kept
delaying and delaying hoping for a more substantial block of time.
Finally, I have that chance.
Just between us, I do feel somewhat responsible for your struggle. With a
subject like this, especially given your age, I like to make you think
rather than just force feeding you the information, because I want you to
make the journey yourself so that the conclusion is yours - you own it,
instead of mine - you regurgitate it. However, because our church is
growing dramatically (by our standards) and unexpectedly, I have not put
the time into giving you the best information to take the journey yourself.
So, in summary, I've given you the questions, but not given you enough
information to formulate the answer. I honestly wish I could have a
mulligan with your class and start over. Ce la vie.
Second, before I give you my big answer, I want to challenge a few of the
views you seem to put forward in your emails:

- *"Christianity is a very good thing that allows people to live
with a feeling
of purpose and happiness (even if I dont necessarily believe it **to be
divinely true)."* I disagree. I would agree more with an atheist like
Christopher Hitchens here. If it is not true, then it causes people to
foolishly waste their lives and possibly others. Christianity calls on us
to deny ourselves and to live not for this world but for the world to come.
If it is not true, then it does this falsely. Paul said, *"*If in
Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be
pitied." (1 Corinthians 15:19) Yes, Christianity has led to a global
increase in education, health care, and women's rights, but, if it is not
true it has harmed countless lives too by calling people to leave family
and home and to lose their lives to advance a lie.
- *"I thoroughly buy into Christianity from a moral and lifestyle
perspective, and regardless of my personal belief in God, I will continue
to live my life the way that I see to be the correct way
(moral,compassionate,
empathetic, etc--the way I've been raised, that is, **Christian)."*
Here you imply that Christianity can be reduced down to a moral code -
a
Golden Rule by which to live. It cannot be. It may be moral (the way I
see to be the correct way) but it is not Christian. Yes, the Bible gives a
very famous moral code, but it is not a code to be lived by, it is a code
intended to demonstrate that it cannot be lived by and thus demonstrating
our inherent immorality and sinfulness and need for a savior. (see
Galatians 3:24) A moral code says, "behave this way and you are moral;
behave another way and you are not." Christianity says, "You are not only
immoral, but sinful and deserving of judgment, yet God is merciful and
forgives despite your depravity and because of His goodness." This is
profoundly different in nature.
- *"This is a culmination of stumbling blocks, and I've tripped so many
times that I'm starting to wonder why I keep getting back up. How much
should I have to work, rationalize, and conjure up reasons to believe **in
God? Should not God have made it obvious, if He were real?"* You are
assuming several incorrect things. The most foundational is that the
problem in the equation is God. If a man blinds himself, are his parents
to blame? I know it is not new information to you, but God created us to
know and rejoice in Him; we sinned and died spiritually breaking that
ability to know Him, and because He is good and gracious and merciful, He
made a way for us to be saved. In your equation, God would have to do one
of two things: (1) ignore sin, thereby violating His own essential Holy
nature; or (2) force your response - force you to accept His way back to
the relationship you were created for - spiritual rape, if you will.
Before you object about predestination and free will, hang on to the end.

Sorry, interrupted...More to follow this evening...."

"You stated the crux of your argument as follows:
*When creating the universe, God knew man would fall. He had complete knowledge
that man would rebel, and billions of people would be RUTHLESSLY TORTURED
for ETERNITY as a result--every single nuance of his design for Creation
impacted the eternal destiny of people. But God created us anyway. And why?
Because he wanted to be loved? Worshiped? No one really has a reason. And I
cant think of a reason that would come anywhere near justifying the
ruthless, eternal torture of your own creation. Your own creation that is
in an environment in which they did not choose to be, an environment where
the outcome is already established, and (which is questionable due to the
Bible explicitly driving home the point of Gods sovereignty), I do not see
how it is justified. I do not want
rhetoric about how God gives us all a chance. Tell me, if you were about to
have a son, but you knew your son would go on to make bad decisions
and eventually
end up burned and tormented for eternity, would you still go ahead and have
your son? No, you would do the loving thing and stop it from happening.
Anyone who didnt would be rightfully called an evil, egotistical,
psychopath. And that is the reality of the situation, there is no way
around it with Christian doctrine. Somewhere along the way, it cannot be
right. It completely contradicts the image of a benevolent, loving God.*

Obviously, I'm sure it is no shock to you that I disagree with your
assessment.

The most foundational issue here is the big one: Is God sovereign or does
man have free will? As I said in class, the answer is, in some way beyond
human reasoning, yes. The Bible teaches both. Somehow both are true
without restricting the other. You may, like others, look into this
apparent contradiction, throw up your hands, and walk away from the
discussion. That is the first option. Or you could admit the possibility
that the human intellect is finite and that there is the possibility that
apparent contradictions may be precisely that...apparent, yet false. Much
of your argument or your willingness to accept my argument hangs on how you
deal with this issue. If I am going to consider the issue of an infinite
God, then I will assume that this infinite God might have truths that are
beyond my ability to understand. You may find this argument lazy. I find
it logically consistent with the premise. If you are willing to humble the
human intellect to this possibility, then human free will is not an
illusion and it is the culprit in anyone who would go to hell of their own
free will (Romans 10:5 and following).
The second issue is the why of God's creation of us. God had three
possibilities in regards to creation: (1) Create nothing; (2) Create
perfectly but without free will. This He did, in all of creation, with the
notable exception of man. If He created only this, it could only be for
His own pleasure. Neither animal, plant, or mineral can marvel or ponder.
Or (3) Create with a free will, sovereignly permitting that free will to
be exercised outside of His perfect will. His love kept Him from the first
option. The second option was unnecessary and without purpose. This leads
Him to the 3rd option, yet in arriving at it, He is allowing the
possibility that some will rebel and of their own free will choose that
which will require Him to judge them in accordance with His holiness. As a
father, I did bring my son into this world understanding that there is the
possibility that he will reject God and spend eternity in hell. Every
parent does. If he rejects God's grace and love, then he will receive the
punishment we all deserve. However, I pray every night that God would
soften his heart to the Gospel and by His loving grace, save him from his
sin.
Your entire argument falls on these two points.
Is God good to create with a perfect will that all would be saved (1
Timothy 2:4), yet with a permissive will that only the elect would be
saved? I say yes.
Have to go get my kids...I'll write more later."

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 181:

...
I finally started to break down a bit on the outside and that's when I knew I had to have a real, genuine discussion with someone that I cared about.
...

While I commend the notion, I'da preferred you to have said "someone I trust" - while of course we can expect you trust her. My point here being that I see you in emotional turmoil as opposed to "intellectual turmoil".

1. Though we cannot prove a higher power, it doesnt mean there ISNT one. There is SOME reason to believe in a higher power. I realize anecdotal evidence is frowned upon, but surely it has some merit--people are put to death on anecdotal evidence.

Atheists have been put to death on the basis of their non/belief, does this anecdotal evidence lead you to conclude there are no gods?

My parents genuinely claim to have seen a fog whilst intense prayer--a visible, tangible fog and both claim to have seen it.

With all respect, "fog" does come to mind when I hear of religious claims.

...
But my parents have a sound mind.

"Sound" does not mean "correct".

...
Basically, there is no reason for her to lie about this.

This should not lead you to conclude her thoughts on the matter are correct.

God gave you a brain and intends for you to use it - to love Him with
all your heart and all your mind.

Notice there's no presentation of how you can confirm the validity of this statement.

I'll do this, if you promise to engage our discussion as an honest seeker without predetermined conclusions in your mind. Deal?

While seemingly innocuous, I worry that such language may be used against you if you disagree; you'll become "a not honest seeker" and to have "predetermined" your conclusions.

2. You need to look at the intricacy and beauty of the universe around you and determine if God's existence explains more of the data or his non- existence. You say His non-existence does. I say that it is crazy to say random chance produced this.

Notice that a disagreement is "crazy", not "honestly sought", nor "not predetermined".

...
God welcomes the honest doubter (Mark 9:24) but not the rebellious self-appointed judge.

While the god himself is proclaimed to be the "self-appointed judge".

I'll leave the rest as it really just restates commonly understood biblical notions - sans any evidence upon which to determine the veracity thereof.

[sleepthroughthestatic]

With all due respect, I clearly stated that my entry could be critiqued and nitpicked--they are simply my personal thoughts, they are neither scientific nor scholarly. I really don't care. There are ways to disagree with anything, and I'm merely taking the position that I don't and can't know anything for certain. I openly concede I do not actively believe in God, but I will not state that there is no chance; and I will not claim that I KNOW that anyone who disagrees with my assessment is either delusional or crazy.

What I needed at the time was a "maybe" on the existence of God, because the complete turnaround from full-on believer to nihilistic atheist was too much--that journal entry was my way of justifying and articulating that line of thinking. If that little slice of not knowing gets me through the day, I'm okay with that. The harshness of believing you KNOW there is no God, there is no afterlife, there is no ultimate purpose to life--it was and is too much for me. I'll admit that. Perhaps I'm weak, I again, don't really care. Because if there is no God, it comes down to what is going to make me happy--and if there is a God, obviously, remaining open to the possibility is beneficial. The key is that I'm no longer bound to think a certain way. I can look at an issue, and choose my stance on it based on what I feel is logical and correct--not on whether or not it lines up with the Bible. I feel I've given myself the freedom of an atheist, but the hope of a believer (to some degree, my "hope" being a vague maybe rather than a clearly defined end).

My opinion is bound to shift, perhaps sometimes leaning more towards God, sometimes leaning more towards no God. Being entirely honest and realistic, and at the risk of losing any intellectual credibility, my opinion will probably hinge on what I am most comfortable with believing at a given time. Because as far as I'm concerned, life is short, and I don't want to waste my life worrying about it's end. If that means I'm not as intellectually rigorous as I could be, so be it. I'd rather apply my rigor to my family, friends, career, and the things in life I will remember and smile about. That's not to say I will blind or delude myself from truth or deep thinking, my curiosity will not be satisfied simply by meandering through life. But right now, I'm going to focus on living and less on questions that simply do not have definite answers. I realize this response isn't going to satisfy Christians, and it may seem silly to some atheists, but it satisfied me (for now), and that's what I am going to weigh most heavily.

And yes, I know, my philosophy teacher's remarks I found to be unsatisfactory as well--for many of the same reasons you pointed out.

[Haven]

I am also an ex-Christian who lost my faith for intellectual reasons. I never wanted to be an atheist, and I definitely know where you're coming from. Personally, I cannot stand the nihilistic implications of atheism.

Some here may try to convince you otherwise, but I say you have to do whatever makes you happy, whatever helps you make it through life. If belief makes you happy, then go for it -- just be tolerant of those who think differently.

[Goat]

. But right now, I'm going to focus on living and less on questions that simply do not have definite answers. I realize this response isn't going to satisfy Christians, and it may seem silly to some atheists, but it satisfied me (for now), and that's what I am going to weigh most heavily.

And yes, I know, my philosophy teacher's remarks I found to be unsatisfactory as well--for many of the same reasons you pointed out.

In absence of evidence, focusing on living, and less on questions that do not have definite answer is a good thing. Isn't life , and doing what you think is RIGHT much more important? How you live your life has more effect on other people what why you live like you do.

[catalyst]

With all due respect, I clearly stated that my entry could be critiqued and nitpicked--they are simply my personal thoughts, they are neither scientific nor scholarly. I really don't care. There are ways to disagree with anything, and I'm merely taking the position that I don't and can't know anything for certain. I openly concede I do not actively believe in God, but I will not state that there is no chance; and I will not claim that I KNOW that anyone who disagrees with my assessment is either delusional or crazy.

What I needed at the time was a "maybe" on the existence of God, because the complete turnaround from full-on believer to nihilistic atheist was too much--that journal entry was my way of justifying and articulating that line of thinking. If that little slice of not knowing gets me through the day, I'm okay with that. The harshness of believing you KNOW there is no God, there is no afterlife, there is no ultimate purpose to life--it was and is too much for me. I'll admit that. Perhaps I'm weak, I again, don't really care. Because if there is no God, it comes down to what is going to make me happy--and if there is a God, obviously, remaining open to the possibility is beneficial. The key is that I'm no longer bound to think a certain way. I can look at an issue, and choose my stance on it based on what I feel is logical and correct--not on whether or not it lines up with the Bible. I feel I've given myself the freedom of an atheist, but the hope of a believer (to some degree, my "hope" being a vague maybe rather than a clearly defined end).

My opinion is bound to shift, perhaps sometimes leaning more towards God, sometimes leaning more towards no God. Being entirely honest and realistic, and at the risk of losing any intellectual credibility, my opinion will probably hinge on what I am most comfortable with believing at a given time. Because as far as I'm concerned, life is short, and I don't want to waste my life worrying about it's end. If that means I'm not as intellectually rigorous as I could be, so be it. I'd rather apply my rigor to my family, friends, career, and the things in life I will remember and smile about. That's not to say I will blind or delude myself from truth or deep thinking, my curiosity will not be satisfied simply by meandering through life. But right now, I'm going to focus on living and less on questions that simply do not have definite answers. I realize this response isn't going to satisfy Christians, and it may seem silly to some atheists, but it satisfied me (for now), and that's what I am going to weigh most heavily.

And yes, I know, my philosophy teacher's remarks I found to be unsatisfactory as well--for many of the same reasons you pointed out.

Like 100% atheist, I also understand where you are coming from. and you make some very valid points.

As an atheist, I merely deny the viability of the god models presented to me through MULTIPLE religions out there. Christianity just happens to be one of them that I deny the existence of. It may be the one god model that the majority of my posts revolve around on here, but that is mainly due to the fact that christianity IS the most brought up topic on this forum.


That said, there well could be some type of "all-being, all-knowing" entity floating around out there.. I am actually open to that. If there is though, I reckon it would present itself TO ME and everyone else of its own accord and would not have to rely on others telling me or you what it supposedly "is" or supposedly "wants" and especially, it would not have a "tick-list" of what you MUST do to be considered viable TO "it", whether written on a scroll or in a bound book with gold leaf trim. It WOULD be an absolute or universal knowledge that NO ONE could deny and frankly, I don't think religion WOULD play any part in it as there would be no need FOR religion. That has yet to be revealed to me, or others for that matter, no matter what religion they choose, or what claims they make to the contrary. The fact that there ARE "fighting" factions even within a single religion, to me at least a show that that religion's alleged TRUTH, isn't any capital T truth...or ....."the" WAY... at all.

As such, I am not willing to latch onto anything "just in case" to fit for now into a conformist mindset. Truth is far too important for me to merely settle. As such, I see every day as a new one, have thrown aside the "taught to believe X" mentality. In fact, my hands could probably be considered like aviaries as I have flipped conformity over the years, MANY a "bird".

That said, it has worked for me, but I also take into account the life experiences I have had to come to this conclusion, purely for myself. I am not saying that this IS something EVERYONE should, would or could do. I am saying though that when it does come to the concept of spirituality (and religion does not have to play any part in that) comes down to understanding of SELF, rather than reading in a "manual" what it allegedly "takes" to be a spiritual being.

AFAIC, it's good that you are open and willing to shift your thoughts as new information comes your way, rather than remain static and cling to what you claimed to KNOW yesterday.

The thing is though, TRUTHS tend to remain static and they aren't reliant ON any religious spin or spiel.

As I alluded to in my initial post to you. With my personal revelation as to what IS truth vs not, was a matter of separating the actual NEEDS in life, from the WANTS.

What we as human beings within our CORE actually NEED in life, cannot be taught; they are part of the "just is".


Catalyst.

[JoeyKnothead]

With all due respect, I clearly stated that my entry could be critiqued and nitpicked--they are simply my personal thoughts, they are neither scientific nor scholarly.
...

For sure. My comments were meant to help you and others evaluate your own evaluation. I don't just discount the powerful impact religious notions can have on folks, except to try to limit such that have a negative impact on others.

I bid you peace and happiness in your journey, even it brings you to the religious side of things.

[Darias]

With all due respect, I clearly stated that my entry could be critiqued and nitpicked--they are simply my personal thoughts, they are neither scientific nor scholarly. I really don't care. There are ways to disagree with anything, and I'm merely taking the position that I don't and can't know anything for certain. I openly concede I do not actively believe in God, but I will not state that there is no chance; and I will not claim that I KNOW that anyone who disagrees with my assessment is either delusional or crazy.

This is an entirely logical position and it is also the one I take. I am an Agnostic-Ignostic Christian and an Apatheist. When it comes to the traditional Christian version of god, no, I do not believe such a deity can exist for various reasons. Yet I do not have the evidence based knowledge to claim that he does not, nor do I have the knowledge that other gods do not exist. To assert the impossibility of gods is the intellectual equivalent of asserting the existence thereof.

At the same time I see little evidence for divine intervention, which explains my could-care-less attitude when it comes to the existence or nonexistence of gods. Their supposed existence has no relevance in my daily life.

Now I actually acknowledge that a god might be knowable, therefore I am not a strong Agnostic. I don't believe that nonphysical entities can be examined but there are ways that a god might show himself to be real if he exists and is capable of such.

The position you have taken is perfectly rational and appropriate.

What I needed at the time was a "maybe" on the existence of God, because the complete turnaround from full-on believer to nihilistic atheist was too much...

Here I agree with you that the shift is sudden. Mine was gradual over the period of a few years. I also disagree with the need to be nihilistic. Just because the belief that "God has a plan and purpose" might not actually be true, does not mean that life has no purpose for you. Life is what you make of it, and it can indeed be fulfilling and meaningful apart from belief in traditional Christian ideology. I understand that this might be hard to accept, especially if you, as I have been, were taught that life has no purpose apart from Christ.

In my opinion, the statement "God has a plan and purpose" is a very vague utterance meant to comfort. But because it is vague and essentially meaningless, it cannot be all that comforting after all. What you should realize is that apart from your perspective, nothing has changed. You are still the same person with the same values more or less. You still like the same things. Your life has meaning to you and neither the stars nor the will of the gods can take that away from you.

--that journal entry was my way of justifying and articulating that line of thinking. If that little slice of not knowing gets me through the day, I'm okay with that. The harshness of believing you KNOW there is no God, there is no afterlife, there is no ultimate purpose to life--it was and is too much for me.

Your comfort with the idea that there may not be a god or an afterlife or a purpose to life matters not. You are not compelled to entertain the notion that you must know that there is no god or afterlife or meaning to life because no one can know, and in my opinion, no one has the right to know that which they cannot demonstrate. It's not only too much for you on an emotional level but it oversteps the bounds of logical reasoning.

Now, the way I see death is probably just like sleep. Non-existence before birth should be no more terrifying than non-existence after death, should that be the case. The thing most people fear is the way we might die or the sudden shift from awareness to eternal unconsciousness. We also fear what we leave behind and the emotional burden that causes others. But death itself isn't something to fear. It's also not something to chase after. In death there is no peace because peace is an emotional experience. That of course is assuming that there is no afterlife.

Now, I'd be delighted if there was an eternal afterlife though I cannot understand how my brain would be downloaded into a nonphysical entity.

I'd also be happy if there was a benevolent deity, provided he didn't desire to impose his wrath upon me for my failure to acknowledge him whoever he may be (Xenu, Thor, Yahweh, etc.)

But despite my doubts, I have no way of knowing either way. I have no reason to fear either outcome because I am exercising logic and goodness in the present. If I am to be damned for that, it should speak much about the justice and character of the judge not me.

I'll admit that. Perhaps I'm weak, I again, don't really care. Because if there is no God, it comes down to what is going to make me happy--and if there is a God, obviously, remaining open to the possibility is beneficial. The key is that I'm no longer bound to think a certain way. I can look at an issue, and choose my stance on it based on what I feel is logical and correct--not on whether or not it lines up with the Bible. I feel I've given myself the freedom of an atheist, but the hope of a believer (to some degree, my "hope" being a vague maybe rather than a clearly defined end).

You are not weak to doubt the logic of complete denial in the absence of evidence. That is an entirely logical position that cannot be matched or bested.

There is nothing wrong with hope because hope is based upon what is not known. We can all hope there's a good god out there; there's no harm in that. People might even hope for the opposite. The harm comes when you feel pressured to embrace a system of reasoning that isn't supported by logic, such as Strong Atheism -- firmly rooted in emotion and opinion, just like Theism.

My opinion is bound to shift, perhaps sometimes leaning more towards God, sometimes leaning more towards no God. Being entirely honest and realistic, and at the risk of losing any intellectual credibility, my opinion will probably hinge on what I am most comfortable with believing at a given time. Because as far as I'm concerned, life is short, and I don't want to waste my life worrying about it's end. If that means I'm not as intellectually rigorous as I could be, so be it. I'd rather apply my rigor to my family, friends, career, and the things in life I will remember and smile about. That's not to say I will blind or delude myself from truth or deep thinking, my curiosity will not be satisfied simply by meandering through life. But right now, I'm going to focus on living and less on questions that simply do not have definite answers. I realize this response isn't going to satisfy Christians, and it may seem silly to some atheists, but it satisfied me (for now), and that's what I am going to weigh most heavily.

And yes, I know, my philosophy teacher's remarks I found to be unsatisfactory as well--for many of the same reasons you pointed out.

My opinions have shifted all over the place. I have learned a lot on these forums and my position I hold today is based on this. It's precisely why I'm not an Atheist.

But anyways... Go live your life and don't worry about the unknowable unknowns. You have no reason to pain yourself over impossible questions.

Best of luck to you,


- Darias

[Crazee]

Good for you Sleep. Keep doing what you're doing and you'll find answers. The open-minded approach that doesn't shut out any possibilities entirely will serve you well. You've learned the most important thing already, and that's how to learn very effectively. Experiences with the greater identity of the universe will come because you're still open to the possibility that they exist.