I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

spayne

Post #171

Post by spayne »

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
spayne wrote:Theism in general may not have an answer but Christianity and the Bible definitely do.
I am not understanding how your bible quotes solve the Euthyphro dilemma.
I wasn't addressing the Euthyphro dilemma in my response. However, I do think that the Bible addresses/resolves this. In the Bible morality is not defined by God's commands; but rather it is rooted in God's nature and character of absolute goodness and holiness. This identity of holiness then expresses itself through God's commands to present a moral order that is objectively good (because its source is objectively good). The goodness of God is understood to be a foundation of his character, not simply that God is equal to or is being compared in some way to what good is. God simply IS good. Finally, the Bible says that we are made in his image and that we have his word written in our hearts. The conclusion therefore is that humans have the moral intuition to recognize his laws as being objectively good.

Haven

Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #172

Post by Haven »

Janx wrote: Hi Haven,

I've been mulling over your response for a while and sadly can't make sense of it. Maybe you can help me out.
Sure. I'm sorry if my last post wasn't clear.

My main point was that most god concepts imply that god is the most basic element of reality. This means that the universe and everything else (besides god) that exists is either created by or somehow based on god. Given this, god's nature could function as some kind of objective standard.
Morality is a tool social creatures use to assist in the challenge of co-existential. We aught to be moral because we want to remain in a society. This desire to fulfill our needs is the objective fact upon which morality is founded. If fundamental necessity is responsible for anything, it would be shaping our desires, our environment and our capacity to achieve what we want.
This makes sense.
A moral structure is the result of shared desires. It's a social contract to protect social cohesion. Those who are immoral break this contract and must either be controlled or expelled from society.
I agree.
Justice is a tool to assist in preventing us from slipping down the slippery slope of morality - it's controlled immorality for the sake of greater good.
This makes sense.
I don't see how we can add objectivity to this system without losing our freedom to be individuals - to pursue what we want and have the capacity to shape our desires.
I still disagree with this. Why can't moral standards be universal? Morality has to be in some sense objective in order to remain relevant. If morals are not objective, then they are little more than arbitrary statements enforced by power.

Artie
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Post #173

Post by Artie »

Knight wrote:
Artie wrote:Of course. Cooperating organisms have a better chance of survival. Cooperation automatically produces a common code called morals. Those morals include taking responsibility for others as others take responsibility for you because this enhances survivability and prosperity for both yourself and others. Even monkeys show responsibility and empathy towards other monkeys by avoiding hurting them even though it's to their own considerable disadvantage.
Why should anyone be responsible for anyone's survival?
I just told you. The moment organisms started cooperating it increased the chances of survival for the individual and the group as a whole. Morality was born. Those who were moral survived, those who were immoral didn't. Those who took responsibility for others and for whom others took responsibility survived. Even monkeys take responsibility for the well-being of other monkeys and avoid hurting them even if it is to their disadvantage. If you don't take responsibility for others they won't take responsibility for you. Such behavior is not beneficial for you or the society you live in on which you depend. I don't think I can explain it much clearer.
Artie wrote:I may have misunderstood the question. Could you rephrase?
Yes. Suppose you were a criminal. How would you want to be treated?
Still don't understand what you mean. Could you perhaps use a few more words to explain exactly the point you are trying to make?
Artie wrote:What?
Noting two facts that occur within the same geographical space does not imply those facts are causally related. The USA was the world's largest economy. Why don't you consider that to be more relevant to criminality? Furthermore, those stats are at best putative.
You wouldn't expect a country where almost four out of five are Christian to have a low crime rate because of the economy?
Last edited by Artie on Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Haven

Post #174

Post by Haven »

Knight wrote: Why should anyone be responsible for anyone's survival?
Because it's the right thing to do.
Yes. Suppose you were a criminal. How would you want to be treated?
If I were a criminal, I would want to be punished for my immoral actions. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I were not held accountable for my actions.
Noting two facts that occur within the same geographical space does not imply those facts are causally related. The USA was the world's largest economy. Why don't you consider that to be more relevant to criminality? Furthermore, those stats are at best putative.
True. Personally, I think capitalism and a culture of violence, not religion, are what leads to America's high crime rate, but this is a discussion for another thread.

Knight
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Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:23 am

Post #175

Post by Knight »

Janx wrote:Agreed. It is in our nature to have certain desires. Morality helps us meet those desires. Thus we are moral because we want to be.
I assume you agree with the part you emboldened, which would be good. But to clarify, wouldn't you agree that there are immoral desires too? If so, there would be no moral way to meet those desires.
Janx wrote:Seeking approval implies want of payment (approval) for one's actions. This is in contrast to benevolence or charity where one does good for the sake of doing good (because it feels good).
Unless you think that one can do good for no reason or purpose (I don't), whatever reason you provide as to why one does good could be viewed as a quid pro quo.
Janx wrote:I see that our motives are always personal. Empathy allows us to recognize that others share our desires and emotions. We benefit from social co-operation. It is logical to have concern for others because their existence and health determines our own personal success at achieving goals and meeting needs. It is not surprising then that human beings who showed greater empathy and social cohesion survived longer and reproduced more. Thus morality is perfectly compatible with the natural evolutionary process.

We have immorality because a certain level of it is still beneficial to the individual. There are many moral strategies one can apply. The criminal strategy is to be moral enough for acceptance in society while being immoral enough to gain an advantage. This strategy is risky but clearly works well enough to continue it's propagation.
This presupposes that morality is tied to survival or empathy. I think quite a few atheists in this thread beg this question. Why ought anyone live or empathize?

Even if atheists could account for why we believe what we believe in respect to morals, they could not state those beliefs are true.

Haven

Post #176

Post by Haven »

spayne wrote: I wasn't addressing the Euthyphro dilemma in my response. However, I do think that the Bible addresses/resolves this. In the Bible morality is not defined by God's commands; but rather it is rooted in God's nature and character of absolute goodness and holiness. This identity of holiness then expresses itself through God's commands to present a moral order that is objectively good (because its source is objectively good). The goodness of God is understood to be a foundation of his character, not simply that God is equal to or is being compared in some way to what good is. God simply IS good.
I agree that this concept -- morality rooted in the character of a necessary being -- gets around the Euthyphro dilemma. However, the god of the Bible is far from "objectively good," in fact, he can be considered monstrously evil. All it takes is one look at the Old Testament to see that.
Finally, the Bible says that we are made in his image and that we have his word written in our hearts. The conclusion therefore is that humans have the moral intuition to recognize his laws as being objectively good.
Moral intuition comes from evolution and our brain structure, not from any god(s).
Last edited by Haven on Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Knight
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Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:23 am

Post #177

Post by Knight »

Haven wrote:Because it's the right thing to do.
How do you know?
Yes. Suppose you were a criminal. How would you want to be treated?
Haven wrote:If I were a criminal, I would want to be punished for my immoral actions. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I were not held accountable for my actions.
Interesting ramifications for corporal punishment and penal substitution... but that is off topic :)

Have you ever committed a crime for which you weren't punished?

Haven

Post #178

Post by Haven »

Knight wrote: How do you know?
I just do. I can't give a more coherent or intellectual answer than that -- I just know.
Have you ever committed a crime for which you weren't punished?
No.

Knight
Student
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:23 am

Post #179

Post by Knight »

Artie wrote:I just told you. The moment organisms started cooperating it increased the chances of survival for the individual and the group as a whole. Morality was born. Those who were moral survived, those who were immoral didn't. Those who took responsibility for others and for whom others took responsibility survived.
Immorality pervades our culture. How can you say immorality dies out? Furthermore, you are only explaining how moral beliefs became a part of our culture. You aren't explaining whether or not those beliefs are true. Ought we survive or not? I repeat: I am not asking why you think our belief that we ought to survive came about.
Artie wrote:Still don't understand what you mean. Could you perhaps use a few more words to explain exactly the point you are trying to make?
You murdered someone. People find out about it. How do you want to be treated by said people? I really don't know what is so complicated about this question. Are you trying to play "gotcha"? If so, can we skip to the point you want to make?
Artie wrote:You wouldn't expect a country where almost four out of five are Christian to have a low crime rate because of the economy?
I believe I already stated those facts were putative.

Knight
Student
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:23 am

Post #180

Post by Knight »

Haven wrote:I just do. I can't give a more coherent or intellectual answer than that -- I just know.
There's seems to be some cognitive dissonance in this reply. If a Christian said they "just know" God exists - which I believe you accused me of doing in another thread - would you find that answer to be a justifiable one?

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