The Urantia Book

[McCulloch]

Yes, there is the eye witness account [to Jesus' resurrection] given in the Urantia Book.

Bro Dave has put forward the Book as eyewitness testimony to support the allegation that Jesus was raised from the dead. Is the Urantia Book a reliable source of information? Does it meet the criterion used by historians or scientists or theologians?

[bernee51]

Hi Bernee and thanks for joining in,..

And thanks for the reply. A s mentioned I have made perfunctory forays into small parts of Urantia and perhaps a more thorough reading would deepen my undersatnding and reduce my skepticism. To that end I have begun readinf from the beginning.

Something in the foreward grabbed my attention..

"At the heart of this eternal and central universe is the stationary Isle of Paradise, the geographic center of infinity and the dwelling place of the eternal God."

"the geographic center of infinity" - now that is a concept that I have difficulty getting my head around. When texts that demand to be taken seriously make statements like that before it has even got going it sort of tends to put me off.

I shall endevour to persist.

[mark king]

"the geographic center of infinity" - now that is a concept that I have difficulty getting my head around.

If I may offer the following, also taken from the forward of the book;

page 6
Much of the confusion of all orders of beings, high and low, in their efforts to discover the Father-Infinite, is inherent in their limitations of comprehension. The absolute primacy of the Universal Father is not apparent on subinfinite levels; therefore is it probable that only the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit truly know the Father as an infinity; to all other personalities such a concept represents the exercise of faith.

as well;

As a time-space creature would view the origin and differentiation of Reality, the eternal and infinite I AM achieved Deity liberation from the fetters of unqualified infinity through the exercise of inherent and eternal free will, and this divorcement from unqualified infinity produced the first absolute divinity-tension. This tension of infinity differential is resolved by the Universal Absolute, which functions to unify and co-ordinate the dynamic infinity of Total Deity and the static infinity of the Unqualified Absolute.

In this original transaction the theoretical I AM achieved the realization of personality by becoming the Eternal Father of the Original Son simultaneously with becoming the Eternal Source of the Isle of Paradise.

[Bro Dave]

Hi Bernee and thanks for joining in,..

And thanks for the reply. A s mentioned I have made perfunctory forays into small parts of Urantia and perhaps a more thorough reading would deepen my undersatnding and reduce my skepticism. To that end I have begun readinf from the beginning.

Something in the foreward grabbed my attention..

"At the heart of this eternal and central universe is the stationary Isle of Paradise, the geographic center of infinity and the dwelling place of the eternal God."

"the geographic center of infinity" - now that is a concept that I have difficulty getting my head around. When texts that demand to be taken seriously make statements like that before it has even got going it sort of tends to put me off.

I shall endevour to persist.

Yeah, that is one of the problems they address early on, by explaining that our language simply is not capable of describing what we have no way of experiencing. Non time and non space are a couple others. But they still have been directed to make the attempt. And so, they "stretch" some of our words, and add shades of meaning to others, at least to give us a feeling for what they are trying to share. It has been my personal experience that simply reading it the first time as a pure fiction novel, allows one to digest it all without getting a stomach ache! I promise you, when you have assimilated the entire book, you will be amazed by it consistancy and breadth. So many authors, and yet the message does not vary.
By the way, I usually tell folks NOT to start with the Forward! It turns out that it is really a summation of the entire book, and I spent 14 years trying to plow through the forward, with literally no success! I finally just picked a few areas I thought I understood, and read those. Well, it looks like you may already have done some of that. Anyway, try to just relax, and get into the flow. I think you will be pleasently surprised!

Bro Dave

[Bro Dave]

Mark, passages like those are exactly the reason I spent 14 years trying to read the Forward. Well, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but thankfully I finally just started reading stuff that looked interesting.
Now, for those who insist on starting with the Forward, Bill Sadler has written explainations that even I was able to understand, and enjoy!

Here is a link:
http://urantiabook.org/archive/readers/doc606.htm

Bro Dave

[bernee51]

Mark, passages like those are exactly the reason I spent 14 years trying to read the Forward. Well, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but thankfully I finally just started reading stuff that looked interesting.
Now, for those who insist on starting with the Forward, Bill Sadler has written explainations that even I was able to understand, and enjoy!

Here is a link:
http://urantiabook.org/archive/readers/doc606.htm

Bro Dave

Thanks for the link Dave, but even Bill Sadler still states "At the very center of this central universe is the Isle of Paradise. Paradise does not move. It is the center point of infinity. God lives there"

This is my problem, one I'm sure you have come across. The Isle of Paradise (point A) is at the center of infinity. All that exists spreads out from this point - infinitely. Lets move a small distance, not far, say 100 light years in any direction to point B. Well lookie - the infinite universe is spreading out in all directions from this point as well. Point B is the centre of infinity.

In fact, if the universe is infinite, it is spreading out in all directions from where I sit. I am at the cenre of infinity. But so is McC in Canada. And so are you Bro Dave. In an infifnte universe all points are at the centre, and none are. It is, like square circles, married bachelors and the biblical god, a logical impossibility.

[Woody]

Attention Mr Moderator - Administrators Sirs !

The UB is really a huge massive work. 4 major sections, a hundred or so Papers (chapters) and many hundred subsections. Covers everything from A-Z and beyond.

This topic will easily soon outgrow one thread here within this Christianity Forum.

Can you guys consider creating a UB Forum on this site. This subject will soon likely require the space. There are many other forums on various esoteric subjects....how about a new forum for this?

Thanks for your time!

Woody

[Bro Dave]

Mark, passages like those are exactly the reason I spent 14 years trying to read the Forward. Well, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but thankfully I finally just started reading stuff that looked interesting.
Now, for those who insist on starting with the Forward, Bill Sadler has written explainations that even I was able to understand, and enjoy!

Here is a link:
http://urantiabook.org/archive/readers/doc606.htm

Bro Dave

Thanks for the link Dave, but even Bill Sadler still states "At the very center of this central universe is the Isle of Paradise. Paradise does not move. It is the center point of infinity. God lives there"

This is my problem, one I'm sure you have come across. The Isle of Paradise (point A) is at the center of infinity. All that exists spreads out from this point - infinitely. Lets move a small distance, not far, say 100 light years in any direction to point B. Well lookie - the infinite universe is spreading out in all directions from this point as well. Point B is the centre of infinity.

In fact, if the universe is infinite, it is spreading out in all directions from where I sit. I am at the cenre of infinity. But so is McC in Canada. And so are you Bro Dave. In an infifnte universe all points are at the centre, and none are. It is, like square circles, married bachelors and the biblical god, a logical impossibility.

Bernie, language is the problem. The UB says the Isle of Paradise lies outside of time and space, with time existing "above", and space existing "below", something like that. Clearly, language is incapable of conveying exactly what they are trying to reveal. However, it leave us with a "feeling" for it, and that is sufficient for now. When we, and our language are ready for more, more will be revealed.
As for the "logic", ours is hardly absolute. I was just reading an article that pokes a hole in what we "know" about Quantum Mechanics".
http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?nam ... e&sid=1590
The UB is not, nor does it perport to be, the ultimate source of truth. Its justs a clearer picture... a much clearer picture than we've had.

Bro Dave

[Bro Dave]

Attention Mr Moderator - Administrators Sirs !

The UB is really a huge massive work. 4 major sections, a hundred or so Papers (chapters) and many hundred subsections. Covers everything from A-Z and beyond.

This topic will easily soon outgrow one thread here within this Christianity Forum.

Can you guys consider creating a UB Forum on this site. This subject will soon likely require the space. There are many other forums on various esoteric subjects....how about a new forum for this?

Thanks for your time!

Woody

Woody, I think you are a little premature. There are only a few who willing to discuss the UB. As I mentioned, maybe as few as a half dozen. If this topic gets a lot of interest, I'm sure the administrators will be aware and do whatever they find approprate.

Bro Dave

[Arie]

Greetings everyone. I would like to take a jab at the Paradise and Universe notion. The UB states that it "is the geographic center of infinity and the dwelling place of the eternal God." Yet it states in many areas that the universe we live in and many, many others are definitely limited... having distict boundaries of space.

Here are some quotes I found about this... there in Papers 11 and 12.

11:9.2 "Paradise is the geographic center of infinity; it is not a part of universal creation, not even a real part of the eternal Havona universe. We commonly refer to the central Isle as belonging to the divine universe, but it really does not. Paradise is an eternal and exclusive existence."

12:0.3 "To created beings the master universe might appear to be almost infinite, but it is far from finished; there are still physical limits to the material creation, and the experiential revelation of the eternal purpose is still in progress."

12:0.2 "In principle, that is, in eternal potential, we conceive of material creation as being infinite because the Universal Father is actually infinite, but as we study and observe the total material creation, we know that at any given moment in time it is limited, although to your finite minds it is comparatively limitless, virtually boundless."

You see... Paradise is surrounded by 7 inhabited superuniverses and each superuniverse contains millions of universes and so on. Beyond that are the still organizing and yet to inhabited creations. Paradise is the end result of time-space ascension for us mortals. Likewise, which is fascinating... there are beings who descend from Paradise perfection to lowly places as Urantia to enlighten us... such as the multitudes of Creator Sons which Michael of Nebadon is our local universe Father who sojourned here roughly 2000 years ago. I would dare not overwhelm you more as there is a massive intellectual foray in which to go and alot of time to digest.

Also... in regards to mcculoch, I'll just say the gargantuan collection of knowledge from the UB is astounding and if your really honest with yourself you may just witness it.

[Billurantia]

Friends,

Some proof of the validity of the Urantia Papers has been attempted by skeptics within the Urantia community. Most of the science revealed in the Papers has proven correct. The dates in the story of Jesus's life have proven to be right on the money. Mondays are Mondays etc.

As Bro Dave stated, the forward is in actuality a summary of the entire content of the Papers. This is not really relevant to the question posed here. The answer to this question is only available to those who actually read the text. It does become a matter of faith. This is circular reasoning, and therefore invalid in debate.

However, I do suggest that serious students of truth should at least read section IV, the life of Jesus, it would do them no harm.

Bill,
Faith son