Coming home . . .

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Haven

Coming home . . .

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Hi all,

I don't know if this is the best sub-forum to post this, and I don't know if this will be well-received, but here it is: after months of research, agonizing, and attempted debunking, I've decided to leave atheism and return to the faith of my childhood, Christianity. I don't have the time to post a long diatribe (yet, I will tomorrow), but in a nutshell the evidence for atheism was illusory and the evidence for (non-fundamentalist) Christian theism was simply too strong to ignore. I have always placed the pursuit of the truth over the pursuit of atheism, and that pursuit -- though it originally took me in an anti-theist position -- is bringing me home. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, mods, if you want to move this to RR, then please do. However, I am hoping to foster at least some discussion on atheism vs. theism, naturalism vs. Christianity, so I think this is a good place for it.

To everyone who's spoken with me here over the past few months, thanks, I really appreciate it. To my theist "foes," I'm sorry that I tried to attack your views; I now recognize you were likely right. To my fellow atheists, I thank you for your support. This doesn't mean that I will become some raving fundamentalist lunatic, I'm still into rationalism, it just led me in a new (old) direction. If you want more details, just ask.

Thanks :)

Debate questions: Is Haven crazy? Have I lost my mind? Is the evidence for theism greater than the evidence for atheism? Does God exist? Is rational theism possible?

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Post #71

Post by theopoesis »

Good day, Haven.
Haven wrote: I went back to atheism (actually igtheism, if we're being specific). I simply cannot justify believing in a being for which there is no evidence or coherent definition. My heart longs to return, but my brain runs the show.
(underline added)

You're free to be what you want to be, but for my two cents, I'm not sure why the issue of a "coherent definition" is such a big deal. I'm quite unpersuaded by igtheism. Several things to note here:

(1) A major tenet of religious philosophy is that you relate to God as a person, not a thing. The seminal work of Martin Buber makes the distinction quite well. You relate to an "it" differently than you relate to a "thou." God is a "thou." Definitional comprehension is much more important when relating to an "it" than a "thou." You don't ever hear people say "I'm not going to relate to Mary until I know how to define 'Mary'." It just doesn't make much sense. So what if we can't define God? That wouldn't mean we can't relate to God.

(2) Igtheism seems to be rooted in antiquated philosophy of language. Language doesn't just cause us to "picture" something. Language does much more. I raised some objections to McCulloch earlier in this thread, suggesting that Wittgenstein resolved the entire problem igtheism poses. McCulloch claims Wittgenstein doesn't make much sense to him. I expect that is the case for many igtheist, because Wittgenstein undermines the whole definitional objection.

(3) The whole "coherent definition" in igtheism tends to appeal to verificationism or falsificationism. I could very easily offer you the definition of God offered by Anselm: "that thing from which no greater thing can exist." There's a definition (not that I'm an Anselmian). As I've heard it, the objection goes "but that can't be falsified, so that's a noncognitive statement." Perhaps you're a different sort of igtheist, and if so forgive the straw man. But if you are like many others, this sort of argument seems silly - most notably because there are plenty of statements that are obviously true but that cannot be falsified. They are called necessary truths. Falsification is the possibility that something can be logically contradicted (usually by the outcome of an experiment). If something cannot possibly be contradicted, then there is no reason to believe in it, or so the argument goes. But the argument does not apply to a priori truth, to necessary truths, etc. Just take the simple necessary truth: "all triangles are trilateral." What would it look like to falsify this statement? Presumably, you'd have to point to a quadrilateral triangle. But such a thing is a logical contradiction in itself, so could not possibly be pointed to in order to falsify the claim that "all triangles are trilateral." Do we therefore refuse to believe the obvious, necessary truth that all triangles are trilateral? Now, there are two camps of theists. One thinks that God is something like a hypothesis, which we put forward and look for evidence to support. The igtheist claims we cannot have falsification of these claims, and so rightly calls evidential theism into question. But the other branch of theism is presuppositional theism, which claims that God must be taken as a necessary axiom as the basis of a coherent worldview. If God's existence is treated as such, it would not be subject to falsification as a criteria even if we accept that criteria, because God's existence would be a pre-condition for the possibility of falsification at all.

For my money, atheism > igtheism.

Of course, I still am persuaded that Christian theism > atheism.

Haven

Post #72

Post by Haven »

Theopoesis, a few questions:

1) Do you believe god is something that objectively exists, or is she/he/it simply a subjective idea that helps one live life?

2) I feel presuppositionalism is absurd because it commits the fallacy of begging the question and because it is susceptible to counterexamples -- I could just as easily posit atheism as the basis of a coherent worldview and clam that theism is wrong a priori. How would you get around these problems?

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Post #73

Post by Ionian_Tradition »

theopoesis wrote: (1) The Trinity: Though it is common to suggest that there are trinities in multiple religions, I am not convinced of the same through my reading in comparative religion. A triad is distinct from a Trinity. I am convinced that teleology helps us overcome Hume's objection that we cannot deduce "ought" from "is". We can do so through this logical form: If moral agent A wants outcome O, A ought to do O. If outcome O is the teleological purpose of that agent, and if failing to act according to one's purpose is in fact self-destructive, then we can formulate a moral system based on a mutual desire of agent A for his/her own benefit, and of God G (from whom teleology originates). It is cooperative in the Christian metaphysic, and it truly can move from is to ought.

Now, suppose that you were to hold to a polytheistic view of the world, or an atheistic view. You could potentially run into problems with the teleological component of this whole metaphysic. If there were two distinct sources of creation, there could potentially be two distinct purposes, two distinct teleologies, and two distinct moral systems. Therefore, for moral coherence, we would need to posit a single source of teleology: monotheism.

Having done so, we run into the Euthyphro dilemma, which argues from a false dichotomy that morality would be meaningless if derived from God. I resolve this dilemma through the suggestion that God acts according to his character. In patristic thought, you could explain this by claiming that God's actions are Personal, and undertaken by the Three Persons of the Trinity, who are perfect hypostasizations of the divine nature and character. Thus, they work in perfect harmony according to a real moral standard that is not contingent on their will nor is external to their nature (thereby defeating Euthyphro as I understand it). The trinity is necessary first because without the three persons instantiating the same nature, there could be division and teleology would break down. But why not simple monotheism, as in Islam or Judaism?

The answer is in considering that "God is love." If we defeat Euthyphro by referring to God's character, then we would hope that God's character was loving in order to maintain any degree of morality as we know it. But to be loving, there must be relationality. In fact, I've read some sociological arguments (not by Christians or specifically talking about God) that indicates that to truly judge a social action, you must judge the action with respect to a minimum of three social agents. Hence the Trinity. Hence Christianity. (That's all very abreviated, but I hope it at least shows that my decision to favor Christianity isn't only arbitrary.
I am somewhat inclined to believe that this particular line of reasoning is not beyond refutation. I should very much enjoy the opportunity to debate this topic with you theopoesis...Provided you have interest in doing so.

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Post #74

Post by theopoesis »

Always happy to answer a few questions. Whether that's a sign of too much free time on my hands, or that I like to hear my own voice (or text?) more than I should, one can only guess...
Haven wrote:Theopoesis, a few questions:

1) Do you believe god is something that objectively exists, or is she/he/it simply a subjective idea that helps one live life?
Yes, God exists objectively, in my opinion and experience. The idea of God is also very helpful in building a worldview which allows one to live life. However, (post-liberalism aside), this worldview and idea are built upon the idea that the God referenced in the ideas actually exists.
Haven wrote: 2) I feel presuppositionalism is absurd because it commits the fallacy of begging the question and because it is susceptible to counterexamples -- I could just as easily posit atheism as the basis of a coherent worldview and clam that theism is wrong a priori. How would you get around these problems?
I think any worldview, really any thinking at all, must have some presuppositions. If we doubt everything, we wind up in that messy solipsism trying to figure out whether anything out there really exists or if an alien lobotomy has created all of this through some weird science experiment on my brain. At a minimum, we tend to assume that our experiences are of something real and external to us, that we exist, that cause and effect is not an illusion, etc. These are just assumptions necessary to functioning in life. Now, suppose I came to you and asked, "how do you know what you are experiencing is real?" You'd probably have to appeal to your experiences, which is begging the question. (After all, even thoughts that you have are something that you experience.) Do you therefor reject your experiences because there is some circular reasoning going on? Of course not. If you assume your experiences are correct, then you can live a functional life, and go on to think about other things. If you deny your experiences, it seems you will be stuck in a gridlock forever. So because one assumption undermines all thinking, and the other makes all thinking possible, it seems to be an easy choice: assume your experiences conform to reality.

Now let's take presuppositionalism. Some people would present presuppositionalism as saying that we should just blindly accept faith in God, and that those who don't accept these things as a presupposition are missing the point. That's a terrible argument.

I think presuppositionalism is something different. I think it is a methodological stance: I think I need a worldview in order to function in the world. I must have answers to questions like: what is good/evil, what is my purpose, what is my identity, what is truth and how do I know it, how should human societies be organized? All of these questions need to be answered, but each worldview on hand has several assumptions from which the entire worldview emerges. So I look at a worldview (whether secular humanism or Christian theism or whatever), then, I acknowledge that regardless of which worldview I choose there are going to be certain presuppositions. In this way, atheism (which technically isn't a worldview, as the atheists around here like to point out, so you'd really need a better example, but I digress)... In this way, atheism is not a counter-example that would refute Christianity in any way. It would be a counter-example that also includes presuppositions, like Christianity, and which has a necessary degree of circularity for that reason.

So, we grant some necessary circularity, but how do we then choose between different worldviews available? I think there are two main ways. The first is explanatory scope. I have a few presuppositions from which my worldview emerges, but how much traction can I get with them? Can I explain the world, people within it, morality, knowledge, truth? If my presuppositions explain why cheese pizza tastes good, but they can't explain the first thing about morals and knowledge, they aren't of much use to me. (That's a silly example just to make a point... no one's worldview is that limited in explanatory scope). So one objective is to find a set of presuppositions as part of a worldview that allows me to explain a lot about the world. The second way is called a reductio ad absurdam. It's a technical type of logical argument. Let's suppose you assume premise A, which entails B, which entails C, which entails ~A. Then your argument, which necessarily follows from your presupposition, undermines that very presupposition. In that case, you're probably going to need to abandon your presupposition for a new set of presuppositions.

Why, then, do I presuppose many things about God and Christianity? Well, for one Christianity has huge explanatory scope. But more than that, I have not yet seen a way in which it is a self-destroying worldview. On the other hand, most of the secular alternatives I've studied to seem to have that self-destructive capacity. Just study secular post-modern philosophy and see how secure secular rationality seems. I've posted some arguments of this nature here over the last few years (when I'm around, that is). If you look above Ionian Tradition just challenged me to a head to head (I think) on one of these arguments. Feel free to read my brief thoughts on the Trinity and morality to get an idea of what I mean.

So, to sum it up, I'm a presuppositionalist Christian because I've not yet found a suitable alternative. And sure, people here challenge the arguments and evidence for God, but one thing I've almost never seen here is a real alternative for the Christian worldview. And since I can usually see one (or several) ways around the counterarguments (most arguments here theist or nontheist aren't very watertight), I see no reason to leave the faith that has nurtured me spiritually for so many years. Until things change, I see no reason to.

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Post #75

Post by theopoesis »

Ionian_Tradition wrote: I am somewhat inclined to believe that this particular line of reasoning is not beyond refutation.
That may be the most tentative challenge of an argument I've yet seen, which probably means you are wise, not rushing in until you know all the details. Makes me think it would be fun to debate with you.

I also think I might agree with you...
Ionian_Tradition wrote: I should very much enjoy the opportunity to debate this topic with you theopoesis...Provided you have interest in doing so.
What did you have in mind?

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Post #76

Post by Ionian_Tradition »

theopoesis wrote:
Ionian_Tradition wrote: I am somewhat inclined to believe that this particular line of reasoning is not beyond refutation.
That may be the most tentative challenge of an argument I've yet seen, which probably means you are wise, not rushing in until you know all the details. Makes me think it would be fun to debate with you.

I also think I might agree with you...
Ionian_Tradition wrote: I should very much enjoy the opportunity to debate this topic with you theopoesis...Provided you have interest in doing so.
What did you have in mind?
Given that you and I seem more interested in mutually testing the validity of your argument than dogmatically arguing for any one position, I propose our exchange take the form of a casual discussion rather than a rigid formal debate. I shall begin by asking you to define a few terms. After you've done so, I will attempt to point out the potential flaws I believe I've detected in your argument. From there you will be free to issue rebuttals as you like and I shall respond in kind until such a time that you and I have reached a mutual satisfaction. Perhaps we can do so in the "Head to Head" section provided you find my terms agreeable.

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Post #77

Post by theopoesis »

Ionian_Tradition wrote: Given that you and I seem more interested in mutually testing the validity of your argument than dogmatically arguing for any one position, I propose our exchange take the form of a casual discussion rather than a rigid formal debate. I shall begin by asking you to define a few terms. After you've done so, I will attempt to point out the potential flaws I believe I've detected in your argument. From there you will be free to issue rebuttals as you like and I shall respond in kind until such a time that you and I have reached a mutual satisfaction. Perhaps we can do so in the "Head to Head" section provided you find my terms agreeable.
That sounds enjoyable and helpful. As long as we don't set too tight of a time frame on each response (I won't leave you hanging for weeks or anything, but I am working full time and reading for entrance exams for my next degree). Do you know how to set up a head to head? If not, I can ask a mod.

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Post #78

Post by Ionian_Tradition »

theopoesis wrote:
Ionian_Tradition wrote: Given that you and I seem more interested in mutually testing the validity of your argument than dogmatically arguing for any one position, I propose our exchange take the form of a casual discussion rather than a rigid formal debate. I shall begin by asking you to define a few terms. After you've done so, I will attempt to point out the potential flaws I believe I've detected in your argument. From there you will be free to issue rebuttals as you like and I shall respond in kind until such a time that you and I have reached a mutual satisfaction. Perhaps we can do so in the "Head to Head" section provided you find my terms agreeable.
That sounds enjoyable and helpful. As long as we don't set too tight of a time frame on each response (I won't leave you hanging for weeks or anything, but I am working full time and reading for entrance exams for my next degree). Do you know how to set up a head to head? If not, I can ask a mod.

Feel free to take as much time as is required to issue a measured and thoughtful response. I am in no particular hurry. With that said I will take care of setting up the H2H. I'll PM you when it is approved.

Haven

Post #79

Post by Haven »

Theopoesis, could you explain exactly why you find secular humanism and existential / moral nihilism untenable? The two main arguments I've seen against them are either appeals.to inconsistency (but all worldviews are somewhat inconsistent) or fallacious appeals to emotion.

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Post #80

Post by theopoesis »

Haven:

I'll do my best. A thorough answer would take quite a long conversation. I'll offer a brief answer here, and if you find it interesting, then we can move forward with a longer conversation.
Haven wrote:Theopoesis, could you explain exactly why you find secular humanism and existential / moral nihilism untenable? The two main arguments I've seen against them are either appeals.to inconsistency (but all worldviews are somewhat inconsistent) or fallacious appeals to emotion.
First, I thought I'd mention inconsistencies. Sure, every worldview has inconsistencies, but if presuppositionalism is correct, one way to evaluate worldviews is to see how fatal the inconsistencies are. I've posted this here about a month ago, but here are some of the inconsistencies I see with secularism. I don't think they are peripheral, but are rather quite central to many secular worldviews:

Secular modernity and postmodernity reveal a series of internal contradictions:

(1) A belief in a self-created, self-actualized individual through self-will; a belief in scientific causal determinism and behaviorism that eliminate the free will which makes self-actualization possible.

(2) A belief in progress and the advancement of human kind; the elimination of objective standards of truth and morality with which to measure progress.

(3) A belief in the inalienable rights of the political individual; the relegation of political truths to popular conventions, thereby guaranteeing that rights are always subject to alienation.

(4) A belief in the sufficiency of human reason to master its environment apart from supernatural revelation; the historicizing of knowledge systems as a product of culture, generation, language, gender, and race, thereby making human reason a captive of its environment instead of master over it.

(5) A belief in the individual autonomously shape his or her own identity; the elimination of a transcendent anchor for identity which relegates identity to temporal relationships, dialectics, or social networks whereby identity is completely determined by the other, and ever fragmented.

(6) A belief in the liberation of sexuality from the constraints of previous moral systems to allow the best sex lives possible; the sexualization of everything through a virtual "plague of fantasies" (to use Zizek's term), whereby our own minds grow bored with the real sex we can actually get.

I find these contradictions and others to be serious flaws that call into question the secular worldviews as a whole.

That being said, let's look at some deeper problems. Really, any serious discussion would have to pick out a specific metaphysical system from a specific thinker or school of thought, so I recognize that this at best can often be generalities. But you suggest nihilism could be an option and want to know why it is untenable. Let's look at the nihilism of Neitzsche, one very specific person with a specific system of thought: there is no good and evil, truth or falsehood, there is just the will to power. Sacrifice is silly, what we need is the ubermensch who through dominance can rise above the others. Simplistic readings of Neitzsche might point out that in making claims like these, Neitzsche is asserting truths, but he is also objecting to the possibility of truth. Therefore, it is a reductio ad absurdam. But, I think this is a simplistic reading of Neitzsche and that we can give him the benefit of the doubt, where he might suggest that his own claims of metaphysical truth is a power play as much as are other claims of metaphysical truth, but that more basic truths like "my name here is theopoesis" are not subject to such criticism. Instead, we need a more sophisticated version of the same argument. Then, our critique of Neitzsche would be threefold: (1) genealogies are constructed by Neitzsche to explain the origin of these power/truth/morality systems. Neitzsche uses these genealogies to explain how one should be replaced by another. However, his reconstruction of history is undertaken within his own view, and as such is itself a power play to reinforce his point. His genealogy as part of a metaphysical system would not necessarily conform to the factual truth of history, and as such Neitzsche's logical basis for his claims is undermined, and nihilism leaves us with historical agnosticism: we can never know what happened, we can only tell what happened in a way that suits our purposes. (2) Neitzsche seems to argue that, according to "perspectivism" all assessment of particular truth propositions or metaphysical claims takes place within a certain perspective. In this way, Neitzsche is quite similar to presuppositionalism, except that he adjudicates between views through an analysis of power, and not through an analysis of internal coherence. If Neitzsche's perspectives are validated through our ability to "rule the perspective" through power, then we must still wonder: i. whether Neitzsche's perspective can be shared by us today given our different cultural mileau; ii. whether Neitzsche's perspective can actually be considered valid if its power was insufficient to make it accepted in any widespread way since his death; iii. whether Neitzsche's claims as reduced to a perspective can possibly wield as much power as a view which (whether true or not) claims universality for itself. (3) Neitzche claims "God is dead" partly as an objection against an objective view of the whole. However, this theological claim could only be made if such an objective view of the whole could be obtained, so again this claim need not demonstrate a "truth" so much as a desire to obtain control. It claims to know what it cannot, and here alone Neitzsche seems to fall prey to the simplistic version of the objection noted above. Neitzsche in effect is really saying, "I cannot know the truth, but when I accept my own perspective and live by it, I have power over myself through my own will and not that of another." Yet Neitzsche's perspectivism would again delegate the views of the "Self" to the culture/perspective, and as such would immediately rob Neitzsche of all power again. He is not master of his era, but mastered by it.

Thus, I reject Neitzsche as self-defeating. Beyond this, international law would seem to require a universal standard and not simply local perspectives, so pragmatically Neitzsche would fail us completely. Power is prone to corrupt those who have it. Beauty and attraction are often as influencial as power: Neitzsche as a whole seems to have a simplistic view of power relative to modern conceptions of "hard" vs. "soft" power.

I think I'm rambling, and woefully short to explain everything. I hope it made a bit of sense at least. I do not find Neitzsche the least bit compelling as an alternative to Christian theism. Perhaps there are other moral nihilists of which I am unaware that would be more compelling. Perhaps not.

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