Did Allah start Christianty?

[Burninglight]

Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.

The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "If you don't believe Jesus died on the cross, why do you use it as an argument? It is impossible that Islam's god and the Biblical God are one. They aren't the same. Islam's god has no son; Muhammad once said Allah had three daughters and latter recanted. No Bible prophets ever made such a mistake with prophecy. 

Since Allah didn't understand the Christian trinity, I can ask Muslims questions they cannot answer such as, can you show me were it states Allah is against the trinity as Christians understand it or God's Triunity? Where does it state that God's word cannot be made flesh?"

ANSWER: I don't see how I used this in an argument or said something I didn't believe in, all I said was that Jesus (peace be upon him) was not God, why do you believe that Islam's God is not the same God as the Gospel? Muhammad (peace be upon him) never said such a thing lol, you are mistaken.

Allah perfectly understand the concept of Trinity as He warns against this in the Quran, I have shown you so many evidences in the past for this, why is it that you always continue to ask the same questions?? Where does it say it can

Let me refresh your memory. You said, "ANSWER: Yes, but not believing in God brings harm to other and yourself, Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God, so you can he save you when he did not possess the power to save himself on the cross??" This is you using Jesus' crucifixion as an argument when you don't believe He died on the cross. Why do you lol saying I am mistaken?
I have proved to you that Allah didn't understand the Christian trinity. Prove he did or prove me wrong!

[HaLi8993]

@ A Troubled Man

"You didn't answer my question, which god do you refer? It can't be Allah because we know Islam is nothing more than the words of Muhammad. So, which other god are you referring?"

ANSWER: There is only One God, but there are different beliefs, this will still however never change the fact that there is One God, if people have created their own religion or have falsified and diverged off track in their worship and understanding in and of God it still doesn't change the fact that there is still only One God, Therefore do you believe in God or not?? Are you an Atheist or not???? Do you really believe that we came into being randomly??

Islam is the unchanged words of God, if any person actually spent their time learning and practicing this beautiful religion you would have no doubt in your mind that it is the truth and would submit to the laws of your Creator in order to please Him, in return for forgiveness and eternal Paradise that is unimaginable. From an outsiders perspective it wouldn't seem to be right, due to the amount of attention it receives but you really need to ask yourself why is it that it receives so much attention? because any truth that stands up for a cause is silenced. Seriously how long do we live for 60-70 years sometimes even less, you only have a limited time of worship but a lifetime of enjoyment, this is the Mercy of our Lord. If you loose this chance you loose it all. Can we really afford to do so.

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "Let me refresh your memory. You said, "ANSWER: Yes, but not believing in God brings harm to other and yourself, Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God, so you can he save you when he did not possess the power to save himself on the cross??" This is you using Jesus' crucifixion as an argument when you don't believe He died on the cross. Why do you lol saying I am mistaken? 
I have proved to you that Allah didn't understand the Christian trinity. Prove he did or prove me wrong!

ANSWER: Lol, I'm using your beliefs to prove that the bible is incorrect in saying that Jesus (peace be upon him) died for your sins can't see where I said anything that I don't believe in, or where I said he died on the cross. Lol. I have already proven you wrong in regards to this matter, if you wish I do this again then forward some proof and we shall begin to discuss what you are suggesting.

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "Let me refresh your memory. You said, "ANSWER: Yes, but not believing in God brings harm to other and yourself, Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God, so you can he save you when he did not possess the power to save himself on the cross??" This is you using Jesus' crucifixion as an argument when you don't believe He died on the cross. Why do you lol saying I am mistaken? 
I have proved to you that Allah didn't understand the Christian trinity. Prove he did or prove me wrong!

ANSWER: Lol, I'm using your beliefs to prove that the bible is incorrect in saying that Jesus (peace be upon him) died for your sins can't see where I said anything that I don't believe in, or where I said he died on the cross. Lol. I have already proven you wrong in regards to this matter, if you wish I do this again then forward some proof and we shall begin to discuss what you are suggesting.

But that is you still using something you don't believe in as an argument. Regarding the trinity, where does it say in the Quran that Allah is against the trinity as Christians understand that to be.?

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "But that is you still using something you don't believe in as an argument. Regarding the trinity, where does it say in the Quran that Allah is against the trinity as Christians understand that to be.?"

ANSWER: So how do you suggest I prove that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for your sins without presenting an argument from your  sources?? Isn't this the same thing you are doing?? Allah does not accept the concept of trinity:

QURAN - 4:171

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three" (trinity) desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs"

QURAN: 5:73

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." (in a trinity) And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment"

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "But that is you still using something you don't believe in as an argument. Regarding the trinity, where does it say in the Quran that Allah is against the trinity as Christians understand that to be.?"

ANSWER: So how do you suggest I prove that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for your sins without presenting an argument from your  sources?? Isn't this the same thing you are doing?? Allah does not accept the concept of trinity:

QURAN - 4:171

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three" (trinity) desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs"

QURAN: 5:73

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." (in a trinity) And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment"

These verses prove my point. Allah says say not "Three" or trinity but He doesn't know who the trinity is. Look at verse S 5: 73 "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." (in a trinity) And there is no god except one God."

He thinks Allah (whom Arabic Christians say is The father) is the third person of the trinity, but He is not the third of three. It is Allah's misconception. The third person of the trinity is the Holy Spirit whom Christians know is not Gabriel.

This verse proves Allah's and Muhammad's ignorance to the objective viewer. But wait, it doesn't stop there. Another verse that is case in point is when Allah questions Jesus saying, "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" This proves that Allah thought in the Christians eye Allah was the third, Mary and Jesus made up the other two; hence, you have Allah's notion of the trinity. This is a discrepancy of ignorance on Muhammad and Allah's part that you haven't been able to gainsay.

If Allah had mention just once the Holy Spirit as being God to the Christian I would remain silent. Muhammad shows Allah to be ignorant of what Christians believe. Allah doesn't come against the Christian understanding of the trinity only his understanding, but we are happy to say not three concerning Allah's description of the three.

We believe God is one not three. That is another misconception of Muhammad and Allah. I won't even get into Muhammad's

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "But that is you still using something you don't believe in as an argument. Regarding the trinity, where does it say in the Quran that Allah is against the trinity as Christians understand that to be.?"

ANSWER: So how do you suggest I prove that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for your sins without presenting an argument from your  sources?? Isn't this the same thing you are doing?? Allah does not accept the concept of trinity:

QURAN - 4:171

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three" (trinity) desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs"

QURAN: 5:73

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." (in a trinity) And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment"

These verses prove my point. Allah says say not "Three" or trinity but He doesn't know who the trinity is. Look at verse S 5: 73 "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." (in a trinity) And there is no god except one God. He thinks Allah (whom Arabic Christians know is The Father) is the third person of the trinity. He is not the third of three. It is Allah's misconception. The third person of the trinity is the Holy Spirit whom Christians know is not Gabriel.

This verse proves Allah's and Muhammad's ignorance to the objective viewer. But wait, it doesn't stop there. Another verse that is case in point is when Allah questions Jesus saying, "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" This proves that Allah thought in the Christian's eye Allah was the third and Mary and Jesus made up the other two; hence, you have Allah's notion of the trinity. This is a discrepancy of ignorance that you haven't been able to gainsay.

If Allah had mentioned the Holy Spirit as being God to the Christian, then, I would remain silent on this issue. But Christians do not believe the Holy Spirt is Gabriel. We believe Him to be the third person of the trinity. Muhammad and Allah show no understanding of that, and that information was out there during his life time. It is inexcusable ignorance IMHO. Christians believe God is one. This is another misconception of Allah and Muhammad. Don't get me started on Muhammad's recanted prophecy of the flying cranes. This is a truth that most Muslims today deny.

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "These verses prove my point. Allah says say not "Three" or trinity but He doesn't know who the trinity is. Look at verse S 5: 73 "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." (in a trinity) And there is no god except one God. He thinks Allah (whom Arabic Christians know is The Father) is the third person of the trinity. He is not the third of three. It is Allah's misconception. The third person of the trinity is the Holy Spirit whom Christians know is not Gabriel. 

This verse proves Allah's and Muhammad's ignorance to the objective viewer. But wait, it doesn't stop there. Another verse that is case in point is when Allah questions Jesus saying, "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" This proves that Allah thought in the Christian's eye Allah was the third and Mary and Jesus made up the other two; hence, you have Allah's notion of the trinity. This is a discrepancy of ignorance that you haven't been able to gainsay. 

If Allah had mentioned the Holy Spirit as being God to the Christian, then, I would remain silent on this issue. But Christians do not believe the Holy Spirt is Gabriel. We believe Him to be the third person of the trinity. Muhammad and Allah show no understanding of that, and that information was out there during his life time. It is inexcusable ignorance IMHO. Christians believe God is one. This is another misconception of Allah and Muhammad. Don't get me started on Muhammad's recanted prophecy of the flying cranes. This is a truth that most Muslims today deny"

ANSWER: 1) This verse was revealed about the Christians in particular. It was revealed about taking Jesus (peace be upon him) and his mother as gods besides Allah, thus making Allah the third in a trinity. If one continues to read further along in the same Surah this is similar to Allah's statement towards the end which says:

"And (remember) when Allah will say: "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah' He will say, "Glory be to You!"

Allah means God, is it not the belief of Christians that the father used in the concept of Trinity is God?? Furthermore these verses do not contain any errors, the verse is telling Christians:

1) To not say three, which is what they always say, three as in trinity. We simply cannot deny this fact.

2) To not worship Mary which is what Catholics worship and look to her as a God, by putting their salvation in Mary.

Therefore the Quran condemns all forms of blasphemy and not only the trinity concept that you are familiar with.

2) You are mistaken in thinking God is ignorant, God makes it very clear. Can you please provide some references is this the verse in question??:

QURAN - 5:116

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen"

The above question will be put to Jesus (peace be upon him) on the day of judgment. Jesus (peace be upon him) rejects shirk and affirms the Oneness of God. Allah will also speak to Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary saying to him on the day of Resurrection in the presence of those who worshipped him and his mother as gods besides Allah.

3) God makes it very clear to desist in saying God is three in any shape or form, doesn't matter what it includes or which belief you are following so why do you continue to believe in the concept of trinity which there is no proof of, your continual accusations against Islam has no value and they will always be refuted cause they are simply not true. The question is where does it state that the Holy Spirit is part of God??

No where in the Quran did Allah Almighty define the trinity as the father, mother and son.  Allah in the Quran responded to the two main trinity doctrines that exists:  

1) Father Mother and Child

2)Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Quran condemned the christians who worshiped Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them)  and all forms of "trinities".  The point is that any and all types of worship of Jesus (peace be upon him) and or his mother Mary is blasphemy, therefore any plurality of God is false.

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "These verses prove my point. Allah says say not "Three" or trinity but He doesn't know who the trinity is. Look at verse S 5: 73 "They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." (in a trinity) And there is no god except one God. He thinks Allah (whom Arabic Christians know is The Father) is the third person of the trinity. He is not the third of three. It is Allah's misconception. The third person of the trinity is the Holy Spirit whom Christians know is not Gabriel. 

This verse proves Allah's and Muhammad's ignorance to the objective viewer. But wait, it doesn't stop there. Another verse that is case in point is when Allah questions Jesus saying, "Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?" This proves that Allah thought in the Christian's eye Allah was the third and Mary and Jesus made up the other two; hence, you have Allah's notion of the trinity. This is a discrepancy of ignorance that you haven't been able to gainsay. 

If Allah had mentioned the Holy Spirit as being God to the Christian, then, I would remain silent on this issue. But Christians do not believe the Holy Spirt is Gabriel. We believe Him to be the third person of the trinity. Muhammad and Allah show no understanding of that, and that information was out there during his life time. It is inexcusable ignorance IMHO. Christians believe God is one. This is another misconception of Allah and Muhammad. Don't get me started on Muhammad's recanted prophecy of the flying cranes. This is a truth that most Muslims today deny"

ANSWER: 1) This verse was revealed about the Christians in particular. It was revealed about taking Jesus (peace be upon him) and his mother as gods besides Allah, thus making Allah the third in a trinity. If one continues to read further along in the same Surah this is similar to Allah's statement towards the end which says:

"And (remember) when Allah will say: "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah' He will say, "Glory be to You!"

Allah means God, is it not the belief of Christians that the father used in the concept of Trinity is God?? Furthermore these verses do not contain any errors, the verse is telling Christians:

1) To not say three, which is what they always say, three as in trinity. We simply cannot deny this fact.

2) To not worship Mary which is what Catholics worship and look to her as a God, by putting their salvation in Mary.

Therefore the Quran condemns all forms of blasphemy and not only the trinity concept that you are familiar with.

2) You are mistaken in thinking God is ignorant, God makes it very clear. Can you please provide some references is this the verse in question??:

QURAN - 5:116

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen"

The above question will be put to Jesus (peace be upon him) on the day of judgment. Jesus (peace be upon him) rejects shirk and affirms the Oneness of God. Allah will also speak to Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary saying to him on the day of Resurrection in the presence of those who worshipped him and his mother as gods besides Allah.

3) God makes it very clear to desist in saying God is three in any shape or form, doesn't matter what it includes or which belief you are following so why do you continue to believe in the concept of trinity which there is no proof of, your continual accusations against Islam has no value and they will always be refuted cause they are simply not true. The question is where does it state that the Holy Spirit is part of God??

No where in the Quran did Allah Almighty define the trinity as the father, mother and son.  Allah in the Quran responded to the two main trinity doctrines that exists:  

1) Father Mother and Child

2)Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Quran condemned the christians who worshiped Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them)  and all forms of "trinities".  The point is that any and all types of worship of Jesus (peace be upon him) and or his mother Mary is blasphemy, therefore any plurality of God is false.

Only Catholics worshipped Mary but even they never considered her to be God or part of the trinity. No one has ever in Christendom considered her part of the trinity. They considered her to be the mother of Jesus who is all that God is but not all there is to God.

Finally, I never said God was ignorant. I said the Allah of Islam is. You are right he never said trinity was father, mother & child, but he implies it. FYI, that has never been a trinity doctrine let alone a main one. You have a grave misconception just like Muhammad did and Allah did. Only the father, Son and Holy Spirit make up all and only what is called trinity. Allah never spoke against trinity as Christians understand that to be, because Allah didn't understand that no one considered Mary to be God along with Jesus. This is a misconception and discrepancy in Islam that you must face one day soon!

Any intelligent person can infer that Allah meant the father, mother and son as the only trinity and not one of two major trinity doctrines. You are obviously now talking off the top of your head. There has never been two main trinity doctrines. You are also obviously trying to redeem the discrepancy in the Quran, lol. If Allah was right that Christians considered Mary to be God and part of the trinity, then, they wouldn't be called trinity, because that makes four. Islam's Allah and Muhammad blew it concerning Christian belief and the trinity.

This topic will still surface, because contrary to what you said, you still didn't satisfy the discrepancy of error in the Quran.

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

QUOTE: "Only Catholics worshipped Mary but even they never considered her to be God or part of the trinity. No one has ever in Christendom considered her part of the trinity. They considered her to be the mother of Jesus who is all that God is but not all there is to God. 

Finally, I never said God was ignorant. I said the Allah of Islam is. You are right he never said trinity was father, mother & child, but he implies it. FYI, that has never been a trinity doctrine let alone a main one. You have a grave misconception just like Muhammad did and Allah did. Only the father, Son and Holy Spirit make up all and only what is called trinity. Allah never spoke against trinity as Christians understand that to be, because Allah didn't understand that no one considered Mary to be God along with Jesus. This is a misconception and discrepancy in Islam that you must face one day soon! 

Any intelligent person can infer that Allah meant the father, mother and son as the only trinity and not one of two major trinity doctrines. You are obviously now talking off the top of your head. There has never been two main trinity doctrines. You are also obviously trying to redeem the discrepancy in the Quran, lol. If Allah was right that Christians considered Mary to be God and part of the trinity, then, they wouldn't be called trinity, because that makes four. Islam's Allah and Muhammad blew it concerning Christian belief and the trinity.

This topic will still surface, because contrary to what you said, you still didn't satisfy the discrepancy of error in the Quran"

ANSWER: Who has authorized the worship of Mary?? God certainly hasn't. Any act of worship performed to other than God is associating partners onto him. Mary is worshipped and looked at as a God, as people put their salvation into her, only God is able to do this. Mary was considered part of the trinity to early trinity doctrines as they believed that trinity was indeed the father, mother and son. This belief, is still widely accepted among Roman Catholics but under a different name today.  

Your saying God is ignorant because Islam is the words of God, no where in the Quran does it mention who the trinity concept is referring to because it encompasses all forms pluralistic beliefs of God. Early Christians explicitly identified the Holy Spirit as “Mother.� Furthermore in the Gospel of the Hebrews Jesus (peace be upon him) referred to the Holy Spirit as his Mother. The idea of a Father-Mother-Son Trinity was popular during the 5th century.

Now how would you know what God is implying lol, this is the problem you seem to think it is ok to add things to the belief of others without any proof. Allah speaks of all forms of trinity, He makes it very clear that the trinity concept of any kind is not accepted because He is One not three in One.

To suggest that God was implying this trinity concept you are referring to would not make sense because people believe in different trinitarian concepts not to mention those that do not call themselves Christians, as I have shared with you, so if it was indeed what you are suggesting that would mean God would allow one trinity concept and not another which would be contradictory because it still has a pluralistic foundation consisting of more than One regardless what it's referring too. 

How does it make it four when early Christians believed in three. I think you need to do a little homework of your own as it seems you don't really know what your ancestors believed in lol.