My faith is hanging by a thread-are there sufficient answers

[sleepthroughthestatic]

This is literally the exact email I sent to my Christian philosophy teacher (I go to a very serious Christian high school). One of my comments about not wanting to discuss this with others has actually kept me from even posting on forums, but this is a debate forum...so I guess it's okay...I really need to start looking outward from myself. Just looking for additional input...thanks. If I get responses, I will probably question them...so be prepared, I'm not looking for a quick answer that gives me some vague hope. I want it to be able to sustain itself against criticisms and still hold water. Also, I'm not really looking for an atheist to come in here and say "this is what it feels like to be logical, it's always interested to see people cope with their shattered faith, etc etc". Please spare me that. And yes I realize the email probably sounds pathetic and idiotic to someone who hasn't been here, and will only use this as evidence to fuel their angst against religion...


"Hey, I decided I wanted to send an email. I find writing to be the more
clear way of communicating, and when dealing with such a profoundly
meaningful subject, I want to ensure both of us are saying what we want to
say--having time to think it through and communicate it in the manner that
we wish.

First, theres a few things I want to say. I dont want you to feel bad or
anything, like you caused me to stumble. Ive been having doubts for
literally years, but I always seem to bounce back based mostly on
emotion, vague answers, or practicality. I dont usually discuss these
doubts with anyone, because Im very afraid that I will ask questions,
people will not have the answers, and then I will cause them to stumble
and ultimately lose their faith. And, from a human standpoint, I think
Christianity is a very good thing that allows people to live with a
feeling of purpose and happiness (even if I dont necessarily believe it
to be divinely true). Even if it wasnt true, I wouldnt want to take that
away from someone. If it is true, I especially dont want to take that
away from them. So its generally a lose-lose situation. However, you have
obviously already thought about these things and I dont feel Im in
danger of messing up your life.

Also, don't be too alarmed. I'm not on the brink of going off the deep
end, I'm not going to start living like a depraved animal if I suddenly
lose my faith. I thoroughly buy into Christianity from a moral and
lifestyle perspective, and regardless of my personal belief in God, I will
continue to live my life the way that I see to be the correct way (moral,
compassionate, empathetic, etc--the way I've been raised, that is,
Christian). Nobody else even has a slight clue that I have any doubt, and
I consider this, obviously, confidential. I don't think, even if I
completely rejected Christianity, that I would ever even tell my
parents--it would be a selfish thing to do that would only serve to worry
and crush them.

I feel like I believe in Christianity with my heart, but less and less do
I believe it with my mind. Which makes for a very weak faith, one based on
works and fueled by self-aware delusion. So I really do need to work out
what I truly believe. But this is not just a small stumbling block, I've
had those. This is a culmination of stumbling blocks, and I've tripped so
many times that I'm starting to wonder why I keep getting back up. How
much should I have to work, rationalize, and conjure up reasons to believe
in God? Should not God have made it obvious, if He were real? I've read
the books. I've read Why I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, I've
read books by Lee Strobel, I've done my homework. To end this long
introduction, I believe you mentioned in class, when discussing God's
sovereignty versus human free-will, that one must pick the one that best
fits the data (the data being the Bible of course). Well, you left out the
third option. That God is...imaginary. That seems to fit the data with
little contradiction. I cant be a true Christian as long I believe that
in the back of mind.

Now, this leads to current, primary issue.

Here is what is what the Bible states:


1. God knows absolutely everything, that is, was, ever will be.
2. God created literally everything.
3. If one does not meet Gods criteria (ie: accept Christ), you are
literally tortured forever.

When creating the universe, God knew man would fall. He had complete
knowledge that man would rebel, and billions of people would be RUTHLESSLY
TORTURED for ETERNITY as a result--every single nuance of his design for
Creation impacted the eternal destiny of people. But God created us
anyway. And why? Because he wanted to be loved? Worshiped? No one really
has a reason. And I cant think of a reason that would come anywhere near
justifying the ruthless, eternal torture of your own creation. Your own
creation that is in an environment in which they did not choose to be, an
environment where the outcome is already established, an environment in
which God setup the rules. Even if it is their choice to go to Hell
(which is questionable due to the Bible explicitly driving home the point
of Gods sovereignty), I do not see how it is justified. I do not want
rhetoric about how God gives us all a chance. Tell me, if you were about
to have a son, but you knew your son would go on to make bad decisions and
eventually end up burned and tormented for eternity, would you still go
ahead and have your son? No, you would do the loving thing and stop it
from happening. Anyone who didnt would be rightfully called an evil,
egotistical, psychopath. And that is the reality of the situation, there
is no way around it with Christian doctrine. Somewhere along the way, it
cannot be right. It completely contradicts the image of a benevolent,
loving God. And the kicker, all of this can be applied to Satan and his
fallen angels.

And then further problems pile on. God decides to literally wipe out the
Earth in an act of mass genocide, literally killing every person and
animal and living thing on the Earth barring one family and a collection
of animals. This could perhaps make sense if God simply didnt know what
was going to happen, but He did. And it is completely illogical. When God
was making the world, he knew if he set it up this way, that this would
happen, and he would have to do this. That makes no sense. And then, to
fix it all (which, was actually by design because he knew it would
happen), he decides to send his Son to be crucified and redeem us of our
sins. But if for some reason we decide we dont believe in it (and being
completely honest, there are a LOT of reasons to reject it), we are BURNED
ALIVE FOREVER. And thats not even taking into account that you dont even
believe we really have a choice to be saved, but rather all of us would
burn if God didnt arbitrarily decide which ones to save from the
deathtrap that he designed and put us in. The Bible says it is our very
nature to sin, we cannot help it, we are born into it--we have no chance
from the beginning unless youre one of the lucky few who wins the
salvation lottery when God drew numbers before he created humanity. Can
you honestly tell me where Im wrong here? Can you truthfully admit all of
this and still hold the belief that God is just and loving? Your analogy
that God is still just, like a police officer stopping only certain people
for speeding tickets does not hold up. For one, in this situation, the
police officer is the one who designed them to speed and are born with an
innate, unavoidable nature to speed. And yes, it is unjust if you only
punish some and not others for no reason. If both your children misbehave
and make the same mistake (that is, being a sinner), and you mercilessly
beat and torture one and give the other one a hug, yes, that is most
assuredly injustice. Youd probably have your children taken away from
you.

Its like, once I remove God from the equation, everything falls into
line. I realize the following can be rationalized, but if they dont have
to be, if the core of Christianity doesnt make sense then everything
becomes easy. Why is there evil? God isnt real. Why is there suffering?
God isnt real. Why doesnt God make his existence obvious? God isnt
real. Why does God appoint all authority, even authority that ends up
brutally murdering millions for no reason? God isnt real. Why are there
passages in the Old Testament that make God seem really bad? God is not
real.

I do not want rhetoric about us being the clay or a fool says in his
heart God there is no God and not having the right to question Gods
ways. It doesnt hold up. God apparently gave us a brain, I cannot be
faulted for using it. Im trying to determine if the Bible is actually
true, and going back to the Bible is circular logic. Surely God would not
expect me to delude myself in order to believe divine, life-saving truth.
My reasons to believe in God are hanging by a thread. My best evidence is
the experience of others. My parents, and others I genuinely trust, have
told me about experiences they swear actually happened, and if they did,
either had to have been God or extreme self-delusion. My parents claim to
have seen a fog in their bedroom while intense prayer, Ive heard
countless stories of extreme coincidences. But can I really base my faith
on the subjective, biased experiences of others? Im inclined to say no.
Ive never experienced God, despite all my efforts and sincere prayer to
do His will (I assure you it was not at all done with a selfish or
doubtful attitude). There are a few other interesting reasons, like
prophecies, but I havent researched it much and Id imagine most are
disputed, its worth looking into but it doesnt erase the bigger problems
Ive talked about above.

So thats my problem. I apologize if I wrote that a little bit heated, Im
just pretty frustrated. Its not like Ive never believed in God. I pretty
much always have, and Ive been, at points, absolutely devout, dedicating
my life and having a genuine love and desire to serve Him. These are not
doubts out of some ulterior motive, I dont want to go drink and
fornicate. It is genuine intellectual inquiry. The weird thing is, I still
want to go to church and youth group, and marry a nice Christian girl and
live a good Christian life, helping others. Maybe Ill just end up living
like one regardless, trying not to think about the utter hypocrisy and
absurdity that would be. If you see me praying or something, I hope you
dont think Im necessarily think Im a huge fake idiot, even if I am...my
opinions are subject to change (whether through logic or not)...I have
never come close to opening up like this about these kind of things to
anyone so Im a bit apprehensive..."

[Nickman]

I think theists don't understand right and wrong so they have to get theirs from a book. The rest know how to be kind and loving without a manual. Its like common sense, some of us have it some don't.

Weve all seen the DUMMIES books, such as, math for dummies, computers for dummies. Thats what the bible is, its a manual for people to learn something they don't understand. For the people who understand morals, we don't buy those books. Especially ones that are obsolete and 3000 years old.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 220:

Weve all seen the DUMMIES books, such as, math for dummies, computers for dummies.

I feel a bit embarrassed about not knowing of these. Are these books in stores, or libraries, or places where books are commonly found?

Thats what the bible is, its a manual for people to learn something they don't understand.

I'd phrase it as an effort at understanding what can't be understood.

I'll accept any offer that shows I'm enquibulating.

For the people who understand morals, we don't buy those books. Especially ones that are obsolete and 3000 years old.

I must admit, I'm fascinated by your tales of these... things... these, what do you say? Books? Did I say that right?

What really gets me about all this is that in the interim years, some of these, to use your term - if you can be deemed trustworty - these books, have been printed, but here we are, this Bible book remains a best seller.

I think it goes to show that many complex and nuanced notions that can't be shown emperically "need them an answer". Where that answer is not found in philosophy, or where that deal doesn't provide enough intellectual import, it gets placed into a whole 'nother realm of philosophy. The realm of religious philosophy. The difference there being, best I can tell, is that one is aweful proud of it.

[brhal]

How can God be causing all these terrible things you attribute to him if he doesn't exist.

[Darias]

How can God be causing all these terrible things you attribute to him if he doesn't exist.

I'm just gonna drop by here and give a quick answer.

The point of the argument is that given the nature of this universe with all its imperfections and given the state of humanity itself -- all of this suggests that either there isn't a god, or the god that supposedly set this system up is far short of omnibenevolent. And if a god must exist and he is the god of the Bible, then we can be certain that this god is not omnibenevolent given the complete disregard and contempt for human life found in the old testament (divinely inspired genocides, rape, murders, etc.)

Again, if a all knowing all powerful god exists, he is ultimately responsible for the evils of the world, if he doesn't, those evils can be wholly attributed to natural disasters and human action alone. You can't have it both ways. A god that knew his "perfect" creations would have a compulsion to disobey, yet created them anyways and punished them and most of humanity for all eternity, is by any definition short of perfectly loving -- more like malevolent.

Malevolent Bronze Age gods like Yahweh and others are not worthy of human exaltation and worship -- even if they did exist.

If they don't exist, then human evils are the fault of mankind alone and we are the only ones who can try to correct those and make the world a better place.

[Nickman]

From Post 220:

Weve all seen the DUMMIES books, such as, math for dummies, computers for dummies.

I feel a bit embarrassed about not knowing of these. Are these books in stores, or libraries, or places where books are commonly found?

Thats what the bible is, its a manual for people to learn something they don't understand.

I'd phrase it as an effort at understanding what can't be understood.

I'll accept any offer that shows I'm enquibulating.

For the people who understand morals, we don't buy those books. Especially ones that are obsolete and 3000 years old.

I must admit, I'm fascinated by your tales of these... things... these, what do you say? Books? Did I say that right?

What really gets me about all this is that in the interim years, some of these, to use your term - if you can be deemed trustworty - these books, have been printed, but here we are, this Bible book remains a best seller.

I think it goes to show that many complex and nuanced notions that can't be shown emperically "need them an answer". Where that answer is not found in philosophy, or where that deal doesn't provide enough intellectual import, it gets placed into a whole 'nother realm of philosophy. The realm of religious philosophy. The difference there being, best I can tell, is that one is aweful proud of it.

Theists don't realize they get their morals from a book written 3000 years ago while we atheists get ours from experience, knowledge, society, love, and the like. Their morals are store bought. They think they have to have a manual to live life instead of just living it and letting it right its own story.

I look at it like this, the morals of the bible worked for them. But as time went on newer books were able to add and detract to the morality in the bible. Follow this line until now, we have books that can explain morality in terms far superior and relevent to our time. This is because of the 3000 years of experience we have gained since the bible was written. Even with that said, morals don't come from a book. They come from the heart.

[Nickman]

How can God be causing all these terrible things you attribute to him if he doesn't exist.

I don't believe god exists, with that said, in order to debate properly I have to be on your level and pretend as though he does exist. Were not arguing at this point about his existence. We are arguing about his morals and the morals of man. In order to do that I have to speak in terms of his supposed existence. If he is real I can say my morals are far superior to his. I have his word that tells me that.

[Tex]

You mean "rules". Morality mean we are working on a higher level than animals.

No I mean morality. Animals have it too, if you would care to look at the research that has been done on the subject. Humans have evolved into a higher morality and altruism. Morality back in bible times was less moral than our morals today, but it worked for them in their time. If we tried to envoke their morals in todays society we would crumble.

Why care about people that are starving? This caring means nothing, if you believe we are just animals too.

However if you get a reaction to a child in pain....Then you have been built with s


omething that no animals has....To some a gift to other a burden.

Animals have showed huge evidence of altruism. Binobo monkeys turn silent and comforting in the death of others. Orangutans have showed consciousness of self via the MARK test. There are many more if you will research.

Regardless if one thinks we are animals or not means nothing on morality. Anyone can care for anyone. Whether you have a god or not. Your monopoly on morals just shows how much you don't understand them and hinders you from being truly moral with your fellow man. Claiming you have morals and I don't already creates a schism between us and we have never met. Do you see how you fail to realize your totalitarian, monopolized and manufactured morals are a mere illusion? You think you are good by following said god. I know I am moral by following my heart and mind to the benefit of those around me.

Gods morals in the bible are abhorent compared to mine. He no idea what severity, true love and care are. He flys off the handle at any "disobedient" act with death on the spot. Not very loving is it?

You know he killed a guy for gathering sticks on the sabbath right? He also prescribed how to sell your 12 year old daughter.

As I said before the morals of the bible are a far cry from what we have today. Today our morals have evolved for the most part to the better.

This is just more crap you sell yourself, to not believe in God.

Go live in the jungle and see how fast morals exist .

[Tex]

How can God be causing all these terrible things you attribute to him if he doesn't exist.

I don't believe god exists, with that said, in order to debate properly I have to be on your level and pretend as though he does exist. Were not arguing at this point about his existence. We are arguing about his morals and the morals of man. In order to do that I have to speak in terms of his supposed existence. If he is real I can say my morals are far superior to his. I have his word that tells me that.

This is a ridicules philosophy.....If you have morals, we have them for no reason.
What will men get from higher morals??? It only take one Hitler, to kill thousands and their all over the place, waiting to move in. If there is no God, then we all have are own morals to live by.

Even today, people that don't want to believe in God.....Still create false gods to do as they wish. They don't just become atheist, it would have been nice if they did. Even they know there is no purpose in believing that there is no God.

Being an atheist, is like someone who covers his ears and sings, so not to hear the truth.

[Richard81]

And this is just crap you sell yourself, to make you seem better than atheist. Denying scientific research doesn't make it any less true. If I can't have morals without a god to answer to, then why am I not a killer or a criminal, as a person without a moral code would be? Why are the mostly atheist countries also the most peaceful, free and have less murders than other countries? Why aren't they full of criminals and murderers? Rethink your assumptions, because they are obviously wrong, since atheist are not crazy killers and criminals, as anyone without morals would be. I guess what your really saying is that if you ever became an atheist, you would become a killer or a criminal? Well, the majority of atheist aren't like you, they don't need someone watching them to do the right thing, they don't need a promise of eternal bliss, or a threat of an eternity in hell, to do what they know is right. Do you?

[Tex]

And this is just crap you sell yourself, to make you seem better than atheist. Denying scientific research doesn't make it any less true. If I can't have morals without a god to answer to, then why am I not a killer or a criminal, as a person without a moral code would be? Why are the mostly atheist countries also the most peaceful, free and have less murders than other countries? Why aren't they full of criminals and murderers? Rethink your assumptions, because they are obviously wrong, since atheist are not crazy killers and criminals, as anyone without morals would be. I guess what your really saying is that if you ever became an atheist, you would become a killer or a criminal? Well, the majority of atheist aren't like you, they don't need someone watching them to do the right thing, they don't need a promise of eternal bliss, or a threat of an eternity in hell, to do what they know is right. Do you?

Why this obsession with murder?

Feeling guilty about something as simple as: not showing up somewhere, you said you would be, is enough to prove you are more than a mere animal. Do animals feel guilt? You said something to someone and at that moment didn't realize that it hurt that person.....Why even realize you did?
Do animals do this????? Why even care??? What is the purpose of this?

How about ...feeling embarrassed? How does this help me as an animal?

You're trying to block out God....But you can see God in the simplest of things.
It's not just about the ten commandments.