How You Can Prove the Bible Wrong

[Danmark]

Romans 1:28-31: (ESV)
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Doesn't this mean that if we do not believe in God, we will act as described?
And if so, can atheists not disprove this passage simply by being kind, considerate, and loving; refraining from the long list of evils above?

Is it fair to say the standard is not too high to reach; that all we have to do is meet or exceed the performance of the average Christian?

[Divine Insight]

Tex: Here we have a person creating his own Gospel, based on nothing anyone ever heard of, but I get the warning. Interesting.

Well, for whatever it's worth, I have no clue where that came from because I certainly didn't report your posts.

One....You are a liar if you call yourself "sinless" Like you did a few post ago.

Obviously I disagree.

You absolutely have no idea what you are preaching and since Lord Jesus did die on the cross for only doing the work of God....Any god you choose to believe in, let it happen. Therefore you must hate any god that may exist. Because babies die too and god let it happen also. So which god do you believe in, that doesn't let these thing happen? So I can start believing in him too.

To begin with I don't "preach", but since you are so bent on condemning me as a "sinner" and as a "God hater" I would suggest that you do "preach".

There is nothing wrong with any God allowing Jesus to be crucified. Just as you say, no matter what God might exist, people die, and that's a fact of life.

What I object to in the case of Jesus is not that a God allowed him to be crucified, but in the case of Christianity you must necessarily believe that this was God's PLAN.

This would have had to have been God's idea and plan for His purpose.

And it is on that point that it becomes demented and sick for me.

Now give me one of your sermons again.

I have no sermons for you.

I simply express what is true for me.

Do you believe that Jesus can "wash away the sins of men"?

This is part of the Christian faith is it not?

Therefore anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior has indeed become cleansed of all sin right then and there at that very moment.

In fact, is it not written that God cannot be in the presence of sin?

And if you believe that Jesus is God, and you expect Jesus to come into your heart, then you must be FREE of all sin in order for Jesus to be in your presence.

Not to fear, because if you feel that you have committed sins in the past, those will all be forgiven and all your sins will be washed away and you will be sin free when you are born again.

And now that you have been born again and are sin free, you are to sin no more.

That should be easy from that point forward.

Therefore if you are a Christian who has accepted Jesus as "The Christ", your Lord and Savior, you should be totally free of sin and never wish to sin again.

I realized when I read the words of Jesus that he came for the sinners and not for the righteous that I did not need for Jesus to wash away my past sins because I am already a righteous person.

I am not sick and therefore I do not need a doctor. When I first read the stories of Jesus all I kept thinking to myself is "By golly here's a guy in the bible who finally has moral values that match up with mine".

And trust me, that was quite refreshing after having read all the horribly immoral stuff of the God of Abraham.

So clearly I don't require Jesus' physician skills, because I am already like him, and he is like me.

I had accidentally already been as pure as Jesus before I heard of him.

And just as I had no desire to sin before I had heard of him, neither do I have any desire to start sinning now.

So I can confidently say that I am without sin.

Whether you personally accept this is totally irrelevant to me because you are not my judge. In fact, you're not even supposed to be judging me at all according to the teachings of Jesus.

And as I have pointed out before, Jesus taught that if we do not judge we will not be judged, if we do not condemn we will not be condemned, and if we forgive others, we will be forgiven.

What part Jesus' rumored quote here do you disagree with?

Luke.6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

It seems to me that you have a problem with Jesus, not with me.

[Tex]

Tex: Here we have a person creating his own Gospel, based on nothing anyone ever heard of, but I get the warning. Interesting.

Well, for whatever it's worth, I have no clue where that came from because I certainly didn't report your posts.

One....You are a liar if you call yourself "sinless" Like you did a few post ago.

Obviously I disagree.

You absolutely have no idea what you are preaching and since Lord Jesus did die on the cross for only doing the work of God....Any god you choose to believe in, let it happen. Therefore you must hate any god that may exist. Because babies die too and god let it happen also. So which god do you believe in, that doesn't let these thing happen? So I can start believing in him too.

To begin with I don't "preach", but since you are so bent on condemning me as a "sinner" and as a "God hater" I would suggest that you do "preach".

There is nothing wrong with any God allowing Jesus to be crucified. Just as you say, no matter what God might exist, people die, and that's a fact of life.

What I object to in the case of Jesus is not that a God allowed him to be crucified, but in the case of Christianity you must necessarily believe that this was God's PLAN.

This would have had to have been God's idea and plan for His purpose.

And it is on that point that it becomes demented and sick for me.

Now give me one of your sermons again.

I have no sermons for you.

I simply express what is true for me.

Do you believe that Jesus can "wash away the sins of men"?

This is part of the Christian faith is it not?

Therefore anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior has indeed become cleansed of all sin right then and there at that very moment.

In fact, is it not written that God cannot be in the presence of sin?

And if you believe that Jesus is God, and you expect Jesus to come into your heart, then you must be FREE of all sin in order for Jesus to be in your presence.

Not to fear, because if you feel that you have committed sins in the past, those will all be forgiven and all your sins will be washed away and you will be sin free when you are born again.

And now that you have been born again and are sin free, you are to sin no more.

That should be easy from that point forward.

Therefore if you are a Christian who has accepted Jesus as "The Christ", your Lord and Savior, you should be totally free of sin and never wish to sin again.

I realized when I read the words of Jesus that he came for the sinners and not for the righteous that I did not need for Jesus to wash away my past sins because I am already a righteous person.

I am not sick and therefore I do not need a doctor. When I first read the stories of Jesus all I kept thinking to myself is "By golly here's a guy in the bible who finally has moral values that match up with mine".

And trust me, that was quite refreshing after having read all the horribly immoral stuff of the God of Abraham.

So clearly I don't require Jesus' physician skills, because I am already like him, and he is like me.

I had accidentally already been as pure as Jesus before I heard of him.

And just as I had no desire to sin before I had heard of him, neither do I have any desire to start sinning now.

So I can confidently say that I am without sin.

Whether you personally accept this is totally irrelevant to me because you are not my judge. In fact, you're not even supposed to be judging me at all according to the teachings of Jesus.

And as I have pointed out before, Jesus taught that if we do not judge we will not be judged, if we do not condemn we will not be condemned, and if we forgive others, we will be forgiven.

What part Jesus' rumored quote here do you disagree with?

Luke.6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

It seems to me that you have a problem with Jesus, not with me.

Tex: Again....Lord Jesus is the only reason I enter heaven. We must live a good life...This is without a doubt....However we will never be good enough. If you think that you are so good just as God is....Then do as Lord Jesus did and walk on water,
heal the sick, feed the hungry. Can you do this? When you do...then I will believe in YOUR gospel.

Don't tell me...according to your gospel Lord Jesus never did these thing. Right?


So IMO.... at this moment, you have no clue what you are saying when it comes to Christianity.

[Tex]

To begin with I don't "preach", but since you are so bent on condemning me as a "sinner" and as a "God hater" I would suggest that you do "preach".

Tex: You said it...Then it become my fault when I say you said it/wrote it.


Divineinsight:

Yes, in terms of the God of Abraham (as depicted in the Biblical stories) I hate him. Absolutely. He's disgusting.

Do you even know what you are writing?

[Divine Insight]

So IMO.... at this moment, you have no clue what you are saying when it comes to Christianity.

When did I ever claim to speak for "Christianity"?

As far as I'm concerned no religion in the world is more anti-Jesus than Christianity.

IMHO, Christianity is actually far more about holding Jesus up as being the sacrificial lamb of the immoral and demented God of Abraham of the Old Testament.

A fictitious God who whose immoral commandments and directives Jesus himself didn't even agree with according the new Testament Gossip rumors.

Apparently Jesus didn't like the God of Abraham anymore than I do.

Jesus was very much like me in many ways as far as I can see.

Christianity also holds up the teachings of Paul as if they came straight from Jesus himself. I personally renounce Paul as not having even understood Jesus much less having any right to speak for him.

Jesus offered no prophecy of the coming of Paul. On the contrary, Jesus warned that false prophets would be coming in his name.

I totally renounce the teachings of Paul as having nothing to do with Jesus. Paul was a liar for absolutely certain. I know this for a fact because he claims that people who don't believe in his views of God are horribly immoral people who don't obey their own parents. I know that this is false because I don't believe in his views of God and I'm not the evil immoral things that he claims I must be.

So that fact that Paul is a liar is a given for me. Thus Paul cannot have anything to do with Jesus, or any real God.

I don't claim to speak for Christianity. On the contrary I renounce Christianity as being Anti-Jesus.

As far as I'm concerned Jesus was most likely a Jew. He probably was a mystic Jew as that was a common view of Jews in those days. And he was also well-educated in the philosophy of Mahayana Buddhism and that's where he was coming from.

It is the God of Jesus that is meaningful to me.

Not the God of Abraham that the Christians worship.

So I don't preach "Christianity".

On the contrary, I point out all the contradictions and fallacies that it has created.

Don't tell me...according to your gospel Lord Jesus never did these thing. Right?

That's right. Most of the Gospel rumors are no doubt highly exaggerated superstitions or even potentially outright lies.

I don't believe that Jesus ever walked on water. Although he may have stood on a rock that was just beneath the surface of the water.

I actually did that myself one time when we were sailing. We were sailing along and we came to this huge rock that was just under the surface of the water. I got out of the boat and walked around on it and it looked like I was walking on water. Something like that probably happened with Jesus, and his disciples were impressed.

I don't believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. Either Joseph was his father, or Mary was already pregnant by some other guy when she met Joseph.

I don't believe that God spoke from a cloud.

I don't believe that a multitude of saints where jostled from their graves and went into the Holy City to show themselves to the Jews there who later refused to believe any of this.

I don't believe, that Jesus himself rose from the dead.

You gotta read between all those superstitious rumors if you want to see the truth.

[Divine Insight]

To begin with I don't "preach", but since you are so bent on condemning me as a "sinner" and as a "God hater" I would suggest that you do "preach".

Tex: You said it...Then it become my fault when I say you said it/wrote it.


Divineinsight:

Yes, in terms of the God of Abraham (as depicted in the Biblical stories) I hate him. Absolutely. He's disgusting.

Do you even know what you are writing?

Well, you took that out of context. In that post I made it perfectly clear that I see the God of Abraham as a fictional character that has no more merit than Zeus. And I also went on to say that the hate is then also "fictional".

Jesus clearly hated the God of Abraham too. He thought his morals were disgusting as well. Why do you think Jesus blasphemed against the God of Abraham and rejected all his teachings and commandments to replace them with more highly moral behavior?

The very reason the so many Christians LOVE Jesus so much is precisely because he did reject the immoral teaching of the God of Abraham.

Christians don't love the God of Abraham. They love Jesus!

But they aren't supposed to be loving Jesus, they are supposed to be loving GOD with all their mind, heart, and soul, not Jesus.

In fact, try taking Jesus away from any Christian and getting them to accept a pre-Christ Judaism. Most of them would PUKE and say, "No Thank You!"

They do not like the God of Abraham anymore than Jesus did.

Jesus himself rejected the God of Abraham, and that's why the Christians LOVE him so much.

[Tex]

To begin with I don't "preach", but since you are so bent on condemning me as a "sinner" and as a "God hater" I would suggest that you do "preach".

Tex: You said it...Then it become my fault when I say you said it/wrote it.


Divineinsight:

Yes, in terms of the God of Abraham (as depicted in the Biblical stories) I hate him. Absolutely. He's disgusting.

Do you even know what you are writing?

Well, you took that out of context. In that post I made it perfectly clear that I see the God of Abraham as a fictional character that has no more merit than Zeus. And I also went on to say that the hate is then also "fictional".

Jesus clearly hated the God of Abraham too. He thought his morals were disgusting as well. Why do you think Jesus blasphemed against the God of Abraham and rejected all his teachings and commandments to replace them with more highly moral behavior?

The very reason the so many Christians LOVE Jesus so much is precisely because he did reject the immoral teaching of the God of Abraham.

Christians don't love the God of Abraham. They love Jesus!

But they aren't supposed to be loving Jesus, they are supposed to be loving GOD with all their mind, heart, and soul, not Jesus.

In fact, try taking Jesus away from any Christian and getting them to accept a pre-Christ Judaism. Most of them would PUKE and say, "No Thank You!"

They do not like the God of Abraham anymore than Jesus did.

Jesus himself rejected the God of Abraham, and that's why the Christians LOVE him so much.

Tex: You have no clue what you are saying. Lord Jesus always used scripture in his teaching. Lord Jesus spoke of Moses of Abraham, Jacob, Noah. You know you are preaching your own gospel here.

The Apostles were Jews. Lord Jesus was born a Jew. Saint Paul was a Jew....None have ever said the the God in the OT is a lie. Your trying to created a New religion which is based on your imagination. You're not the first and won't be the last.

[Tex]

Luke 22
39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, Pray that you will not fall into temptation. 41 He withdrew about a stones throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done. 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

Tex: Here....Now you can hate the monster in the NT. Is that better for you.

[Danmark]

Luke 22
39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, Pray that you will not fall into temptation. 41 He withdrew about a stones throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done. 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

Tex: Here....Now you can hate the monster in the NT. Is that better for you.

Tex, you quote scripture then talk about hating monsters in the New Testament. What the foolscap are you talking about?

[Divine Insight]

Tex: You have no clue what you are saying. Lord Jesus always used scripture in his teaching. Lord Jesus spoke of Moses of Abraham, Jacob, Noah. You know you are preaching your own gospel here.

The Apostles were Jews. Lord Jesus was born a Jew. Saint Paul was a Jew....None have ever said the the God in the OT is a lie. Your trying to created a New religion which is based on your imagination. You're not the first and won't be the last.

I'm not trying to create anything.

Religions are the problem Tex.

Mahayana Buddhism recognized this. This is why Mahayana Buddhism itself was not about "religion". It was about moral behavior.

And sure, Jesus was a Jew, and clearly he accepted much of the old fables of Judaism. If you actually speak with a Jew, even today, you will find that most Jew do not view the Bible as the verbatim literal "Word of God" like the Christians do anyway.

Jesus tried to emphasize the parts that he wanted to emphasize, and he clearly rejected the parts that he did not agree with. That's blatantly evident in the fact that he renounced the judging of others, and taught people not to cast the first stone. He also clearly rejected the seeking of revenge as in "an eye for an eye", and replaced that with and idea of forgiveness as in "turn the other cheek".

He also rejected "hate thy enemy" and taught people to love their enemies.

So Jesus is the one who is all over the place.

Jesus is the one who was creating his own Designer Religion by trying to combine the best of Buddhism with the best of Judaism.

Jesus is the one who came up with a new religion based on his own imagination along with the help of Mahayana Buddhism.

So don't pin that one on me.

I don't think Jesus really wanted his teachings to become a "religion" anyway.

He was just trying to teach higher moral values from what had been taught by the orthodox view of the Jewish Pharisees. He clearly hated the Pharisees and constantly called them hypocrites.

When I read the story of Jesus I see a man who basically responded to all of this stuff precisely how I would have responded to it. Had I lived back then I probably would have called the Pharisees hypocrites too, just as I call Christianity on the same charge today.

If Jesus were here today he'd be objecting to the same things I'm objecting to.

There's no way that Jesus would support Christian bigotry in his name.

It's as hypocritical as the Pharisees were in his day.

Jesus is very much like me, right down to embracing spiritual philosophies that call to him and rejecting the immoral religious teachings that he didn't care for.

When I read the story of Jesus I see me.

I don't see someone else. I see me.

In the old Testament the only two characters I truly identified with there were Moses and Noah.

If you're going to embrace these religions you've got to embrace the characters that you identify with, not the ones you don't identify with.

One of the main characters that I did not identify with at all was the God of Abraham himself. But clearly neither did Jesus identify with that God. At least not as depicted in books like Deuteronomy and Leviticus, because Jesus renounce the immoral teachings of those books and replaced those teachings with far higher moral values.

Jesus created his own religion. And the religion of Jesus was not "Christianity".

Jesus would not approve of Christianity. Of that I can be certain.

I don't believe that Jesus would approve of the babbling of Paul either.

But in the end, it really doesn't matter what Jesus might approve or not approve of. In the end, he was just a man like the rest of us. Obviously a man who had high moral values and high hopes for humanity, but just a man none-the-less.

[Divine Insight]

Luke 22
39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, Pray that you will not fall into temptation. 41 He withdrew about a stones throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done. 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

Tex: Here....Now you can hate the monster in the NT. Is that better for you.

Very romantic fiction.

But it never happened.

Don't forget this was all written after the fact.

This is just an attempt to romanticize the story.

Also, if Jesus knew what God's plan was, why would he ask for it to be taken away from him?

That would imply that even Jesus was in disagreement with God's plan.

All I see here is very poorly written superstitions.

Don't forget, from my perspective there is absolutely no reason to accept every single superstitious verse of these rumors as the "Gospel Truth".

In fact, if I were willing to do that, we would only need to look at a single verse:

Matt.17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

If you can believe that, then that pretty much seals the deal right there doesn't it?