Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[Goat]

[font=Verdana][/font]
Greetings to all.

Goat wrote....post278
As for Jesus being dead. People die, and the longest anyone is known to have lived that is verified to have ever lived is 122 years 164 days... Jesus is supposed to have lived about 2000 years ago. Therefore, if he lived at all, considering the time frame, he's now dead. Can you show otherwise without resorting to religious material that can not be shown to be true?

How old was Adam when he died?
How old was Noah when he died?
Its quite obvious the difficulty you are having in proving that Jesus died.

The following is a quote from the Babylonian Talmud:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! -Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43a

As we can see the claim he was hanged and if he was hanged then he died.If his death cannot be proven then this book is in doubt(false).

Nickman i am working on your questions.To those that ask me questions that does not relate to this subject i ignore.Those that make false allegations against me i ignore.Those that ask questions that lead to argumental debate i ignore.The only way forward is through intellectual reasoning.

May peace and blessings be upon Jesus,his mother Mary and all mentioned Prophets.
May you all have a peaceful day.

Did Adam even exist?? I mean, it's a story in a book, and we have no reason to think it is other than a story. Because of the name, we have every reason to think that it is an allegory, and was MEANT to be an allegory. Ha-adam, means 'The Man'.

Did Noah exist?? It is a story in a book, and we have no reason to think it is other than a story.

It seems to me that you are having a great deal of difficulty to show that Jesus of Nazareth even existed.

[faroukfarouk]

Greetings

Nickman wrote....
The references in the Talmud are thought of, by scholars, to be a forgery and later addition. Yet, if we look at the text we see that this Yeshua individual was stoned to death and hung not crucified. This person had 5 followers. If you want to use the Talmud text as reference to Jesus you will have a lot to explain. Such as, Jesus working in egypt, his mother being driven out by her husband for adultery, his true father being Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera, being stoned instead of crucified, and practicing magic and idolatry. You also have to explain why the majority of scholars do not accept these references as being about Jesus.

Study the jewish encyclopedia your answer is there.

Goat wrote.....
Did Adam even exist?? I mean, it's a story in a book, and we have no reason to think it is other than a story. Because of the name, we have every reason to think that it is an allegory, and was MEANT to be an allegory. Ha-adam, means 'The Man'.

Did Noah exist?? It is a story in a book, and we have no reason to think it is other than a story.

It seems to me that you are having a great deal of difficulty to show that Jesus of Nazareth even existed.

One massive hallucination.Whats is that you smoking?

Have a peaceful day.

[Nickman]

Greetings

Nickman wrote....
The references in the Talmud are thought of, by scholars, to be a forgery and later addition. Yet, if we look at the text we see that this Yeshua individual was stoned to death and hung not crucified. This person had 5 followers. If you want to use the Talmud text as reference to Jesus you will have a lot to explain. Such as, Jesus working in egypt, his mother being driven out by her husband for adultery, his true father being Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera, being stoned instead of crucified, and practicing magic and idolatry. You also have to explain why the majority of scholars do not accept these references as being about Jesus.

Study the jewish encyclopedia your answer is there.

Goat wrote.....
Did Adam even exist?? I mean, it's a story in a book, and we have no reason to think it is other than a story. Because of the name, we have every reason to think that it is an allegory, and was MEANT to be an allegory. Ha-adam, means 'The Man'.

Did Noah exist?? It is a story in a book, and we have no reason to think it is other than a story.

It seems to me that you are having a great deal of difficulty to show that Jesus of Nazareth even existed.

One massive hallucination.Whats is that you smoking?

Have a peaceful day.

Ok, Im done debating with you. You don't understand proper debate.

[ThatGirlAgain]

One massive hallucination.Whats is that you smoking?

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[cnorman18]

To those that ask me questions that does not relate to this subject i ignore.Those that make false allegations against me i ignore.Those that ask questions that lead to argumental debate i ignore.The only way forward is through intellectual reasoning.

In practice, that seems to mean you will ignore ALL questions; and "intellectual reasoning" seems to mean "jumping through my hoops and giving me the answers I want to hear."

What "false allegations"? Do you mean plagiarism, which is proven? Do you mean that you denied that your questions had been answered multiple times, which is also proven? Do you mean that you refuse to answer any questions directed at you, which is also proven?

What "questions that do not relate to this debate"? You have alluded to or quoted from the Talmud several times now, and still refuse to give your views on it. You have shrugged off pertinent, to-the-point and civil questions of EVERY kind, and refused to answer ANY. Apparently "do not relate to this debate" means "do not follow my programmed presentation."

What does "argumental debate" mean? How does that differ from "debate"? What is it that you think we do here? You present ideas, they will be questioned and argued with. But for that to happen, of course, you have to answer some questions yourself instead of insisting on only asking them and rejected any and all answers you receive.

Your clumsy efforts at propaganda may not be getting anywhere, but they're kind of fun to watch. Carry on...

[Goat]

[font=Verdana][/font]
Greetings to all.

Goat wrote....post278
As for Jesus being dead. People die, and the longest anyone is known to have lived that is verified to have ever lived is 122 years 164 days... Jesus is supposed to have lived about 2000 years ago. Therefore, if he lived at all, considering the time frame, he's now dead. Can you show otherwise without resorting to religious material that can not be shown to be true?

How old was Adam when he died?
How old was Noah when he died?
Its quite obvious the difficulty you are having in proving that Jesus died.

The following is a quote from the Babylonian Talmud:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! -Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43a

As we can see the claim he was hanged and if he was hanged then he died.If his death cannot be proven then this book is in doubt(false).

Nickman i am working on your questions.To those that ask me questions that does not relate to this subject i ignore.Those that make false allegations against me i ignore.Those that ask questions that lead to argumental debate i ignore.The only way forward is through intellectual reasoning.

May peace and blessings be upon Jesus,his mother Mary and all mentioned Prophets.
May you all have a peaceful day.

Do you know when the Babylonian Talmud was written? It was written down 2 to 3 hundred years after the fall of the Temple. How can you tell if the story is not a reaction to the claims from the Christians?

[Danmark]

Study the jewish encyclopedia your answer is there.

How does that suggestion advance the debate? You might as well say 'do research,' or 'read the Encyclopedia Britannica.'

[arian]

Jeremiah is one example of what the Messiah was expected to do.

Jeremiah 23
23 Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture! declares the Lord. 2 Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done, declares the Lord. 3 I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing, declares the Lord.

5 The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The Lord Our Righteous Savior.
7 So then, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer say, As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt, 8 but they will say, As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them. Then they will live in their own land.

Thank you so much ThatGirlAgain...

Yes, this happened many times in the past for the Children of Israel, all pointing to that coming 'Eternal Kingdom' that will descend from Heaven with Christ's second coming. All those that have been born again in the Spirit shall enter in, but the wicked, the greedy, the adulterers, homosexuals and all those that practice witchcraft and magic will be cast out into eternal darkness.

First God shows us over and over again that He holds on to His part of His promise, as if He says; "See, I told you I can do it, and look, once again I brought you together (I'm referring now to this last gathering of Israel) NOT because you have turned to Me, not because your deeds are righteous, in fact your clothes are red as scarlet, like filthy rags, ... but because of my promise! Now take of the blood that I sacrificed for you, the perfect Lamb my dear Son and it will wash you and make your robes as white as snow!"

Amos expresses it in more apocalyptic terms

Amos 9

11 In that day

I will restore Davids fallen shelter"
I will repair its broken walls
and restore its ruins"
and will rebuild it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name,
declares the Lord, who will do these things.
13 The days are coming, declares the Lord,

when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills,
14 and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,
says the Lord your God.

It is Daniel that is being referred to when Jesus is called the Son of Man and the imminent end of days is described in the Synoptic Gospels.

Daniel 7
13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Can't get any clearer than that of the Christ ruling; "everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.


The Gospels go to great lengths to identify Jesus as the Messiah via (allegedly) identifying references in the Hebrew scriptures.

It fits perfectly, Jesus rules over all peoples and nations with His chosen (those who chose Him as King) in an everlasting Kingdom, ... why do you see another person that would fit better? I would love to hear it?

But the big time expectation, the institution of the messianic age, is pushed into the future.

It is not something we can see with these physical eyes, the Kingdom is here in the Spirit, in us in our hearts souls and minds just as it was prophesied would be. But at His second coming when we are changed in a blink of an eye, from this corruptible to that incorruptible, we shall see it and dwell with Christ in that everlasting Kingdom forever and ever.

[ThatGirlAgain]

Jeremiah is one example of what the Messiah was expected to do.

Thank you so much ThatGirlAgain...

Yes, this happened many times in the past for the Children of Israel, all pointing to that coming 'Eternal Kingdom' that will descend from Heaven with Christ's second coming. All those that have been born again in the Spirit shall enter in, but the wicked, the greedy, the adulterers, homosexuals and all those that practice witchcraft and magic will be cast out into eternal darkness.

First God shows us over and over again that He holds on to His part of His promise, as if He says; "See, I told you I can do it, and look, once again I brought you together (I'm referring now to this last gathering of Israel) NOT because you have turned to Me, not because your deeds are righteous, in fact your clothes are red as scarlet, like filthy rags, ... but because of my promise! Now take of the blood that I sacrificed for you, the perfect Lamb my dear Son and it will wash you and make your robes as white as snow!"

Can you find any OT reference to the Messiah coming twice? If so, what was the purpose of that as supported by OT references? The Messiah was supposed to come and bring the Kingdom. The Messiah came " no Kingdom. Oh, the Messiah will handle that the next time?

Amos expresses it in more apocalyptic terms



It is Daniel that is being referred to when Jesus is called the Son of Man and the imminent end of days is described in the Synoptic Gospels.

Daniel 7
13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Can't get any clearer than that of the Christ ruling; "everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

That is a messianic prophecy. What associates it with Jesus except more prophecies? And we might note that the prophecy based on Daniel that appears in the Synoptic Gospels did not get fulfilled.

First Jesus says that some of the people listening to him will not die until they see the Son of Man come with angels to judge everyone.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 8:38-9:1 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Fathers glory with the holy angels.
And he said to them, Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

Luke 9:26-27 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.

Then Jesus links the coming of the Son of Man to the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem and its population.

Matthew 23:35-36
[Speaking to the Pharisees]
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Matthew 24:1-2
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

Matthew 24:15-16
So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand " then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

[Descriptions of destruction and woe]

Matthew 24:29-34
29 Immediately after the distress of those days

the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

(Very similar language in Mark and Luke, except Luke mentions Jerusalem surrounded by armies, exactly as happened in 70 CE.)

The holy place would be understood by contemporaries as the Temple, destroyed in 70 CE. This sign must happen before that. Note the interjected language let the reader understand. Jesus did not say that. The author put that in. Why? Because it was something that his readers would recognize. Otherwise how could they understand it? A likely candidate is Caligula trying to put his statue in the Temple in 45 CE, which resulted in massive riots in Jerusalem.

It was very clearly the terrible Jewish War and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple being referenced. This is confirmed by Jesus saying that these things would happen before this generation passed away. This connects with his prior assertion that some of the people hearing his voice would still be alive when it happened.

But immediately after.nothing happened! No Son of Man in the clouds, no angels, no gathering of the elect. Tying the prophecy of Daniel into Jesus simply does not work.

27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.


The Gospels go to great lengths to identify Jesus as the Messiah via (allegedly) identifying references in the Hebrew scriptures.

It fits perfectly, Jesus rules over all peoples and nations with His chosen (those who chose Him as King) in an everlasting Kingdom, ... why do you see another person that would fit better? I would love to hear it?

I do not see it fitting at all. Where is this Kingdom? It was supposed to happen very quickly. It did not.

But the big time expectation, the institution of the messianic age, is pushed into the future.

It is not something we can see with these physical eyes, the Kingdom is here in the Spirit, in us in our hearts souls and minds just as it was prophesied would be. But at His second coming when we are changed in a blink of an eye, from this corruptible to that incorruptible, we shall see it and dwell with Christ in that everlasting Kingdom forever and ever.

According to the Gospels (see above), it was supposed to be a dramatic unmistakable event. All the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. (Matt 24) If the Kingdom is something that happened already, then the prophecy of a Second Coming to establish this Kingdom is wrong. But we already know that. It was supposed to happen quickly but it did not.

The failure to fulfill this prophecy led to some clever explanations later on. Acts replaces the Second Coming with the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. John says that expectation was just a mistake.

John 21

[Jesus speaking to Peter]

18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go. 19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, Follow me!

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, Lord, who is going to betray you?) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, Lord, what about him?

22 Jesus answered, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me. 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?

24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

John 20 appears to be the original ending of the Gospel of John. John 21 refers to the author in the third person. There is a clear implication. John, a very old man by now and the last hearer of the words of Jesus, has now died. The not taste death and this generation shall not pass away prophecies are wrong.

[The Tongue]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

Well, as the OT clearly describes the Messiah as a Teacher/Leader/Warrior, and the NT describes Jesus as a hellenistic Savior/Redeemer that is found nowhere in the OT descriptions, it seems clear that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and that Christians don't even consider him as such.

You have touched upon part of the equation.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you

Jesus said that it is the Holy Spirit that is the Teacher. At the baptism event of Jesus the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness. In the days of Moses the Spirit is responsible for the destruction of many enemies that stood in opposition of Moses.

Matthew 23:10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ

Jesus says the Holy Spirit will teach all things. And that One is your Teacher, the Christ... One Teacher, the Christ... Holy Spirit teaches all things... The Holy Spirit is the One Teacher, the Christ.

The Holy Spirit fulfills the Teacher/Leader/Warrior/Christ description of the Messiah

[Cewakiyelo wrote].......At the baptism event of Jesus the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness. In the days of Moses the Spirit is responsible for the destruction of many enemies that stood in opposition of Moses.

The Spirit of our Lord and saviour "The Son of Man," to whom is ascribed, all the sins of the androgynous body of mankind=EVE who is of Adam, in which "The Spiritual Son of God="The Son of Man," is currently developing.

It is He who descends from the ends of time upon Jesus, his chosen earthly host body and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness, where, for 40 days, He tries to tempt him into doing one act of worship to him, "The Son of Man" rather than the Father spirit, who dwells behind the veil of the flesh within the inner most sanctuary of his temporary tabernacle, the body of mankind, in which, he gains all the wisdom, knowledge, and insight, needed by the heir to the throne of Godhead, from the pain and suffering endured by the great androgynous body in which he is currently developing, which pain and suffering is caused by the sins and mistakes made by that body.

And Just as you are held accountable for the sins that you make while in the flesh, so too is "The Son of Man," The Omega, who the Alpha becomes," is held accountable for the sins of the Androgynous body in which he develops.

That is, after he has chosen his successor, to be the cornerstone to the new spiritual androgynous body, who is to inherit his throne of Godhead, to the entire creation, visible and invisible.

The Tongue ... You stated.... It is He who descends from the ends of time upon Jesus, his chosen earthly host body and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness, where, for 40 days, He tries to tempt him into doing one act of worship to him, "The Son of Man" rather than the Father spirit,

It is unclear what you are saying? I would presume you mean that Jesus was led into the wilderness where the devil tried to tempt Jesus. It looks like maybe your fingers couldn't keep up with your thought process. Been there and done that many times.

I'm sorry mate, I haven't visited this particular thread for awhile, and didn't realise that someone had responded to one of my posts.

The truth that sets us free is the knowledge that the Father and the Son, are one and the same person at the point where a cycle of time begins and ends. The ancestral parental spirit of the great androgynous body of mankind is the spirit that is developing within the body of mankind, gaining all the wisdom, knowledge and insight needed by the heir to the throne of Godhead to the entire creation, by the lessons he learns from the pain and suffering that is endured by the body in which he is developing, which pain and suffering is caused by the sins and mistakes made by the body in which he develops.

He, The Son of Man, and heir to the throne of Godhead, is the Omega at the ends of time, and He is Who He Is, because of what we, the spirits that are gathered to his ancestral spirit in his evolution to the ends of time, are today.

Matt 12: 50; For whoever does the will of my Father, which is in heaven, the same is my brother, sister, and mother.

Mark 3: 35; For whoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, sister, and mother.

John 20: 17; Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

The truth will set you free from the burdens that the pompous, pious, pretentious, self righteous hypocrites of the world, would impose on you. Be true to Who You Are, only then can you win the victory over the ruler of this world.

So now my friends, come soar with me
To the outer limits of reality.
This universe though wide it seems
Is but the shadow of our dreams.
We are naught but knowledge in these tents oes
refined through pain and punishment
We're the hive of man, and neath his Rod
We are one, we're the Son of God.
The past, the present, the future is he,
He was, He is, and He will be:
And heaven is, but a point in time,
To where the spirit in man must climb,
Eventually, when He's there at last
And stands and gazes at His past
And take the throne prepared in heaven,
Then all His past will be forgiven.
I am, Who I Am, the die is cast,
for I was created by my past
And we who we are this very day,
determines His future in every way.
If my past were changed,
Then who would I be?
One thing is certain, I wouldn't be ME..... By The Tongue.

As the old saying goes: All roads lead to Rome, so too, all genetic lines in the body of mankind, lead to the Son of Man who is the compilation of all the spirits of mankind, but all the genetic lines within the post-flood body of mankind, began in Enoch.

When the body of Adam was submerged in the Baptismal waters of the earth, It was his chosen successor Enoch, whose body arose from those Baptismal waters.

Enoch was the chosen one from the previous world, who, at the age of 365, the number of days in a calendar year, was carried to the very throne of Godhead, where he was anointed as the successor to Adam, the Most high in the creation, or the Most High on the ladder of evolution, and was translated from a physical being to a glorious body of light, where, girded and clothed with fire, he was to serve God before the body of Adam=mankind, into all eternity.

Noah, his wife, their three sons and their three wives were all direct genetic descendants of Enoch, through his six sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion, and Giadad. Enoch, the only man in scripture to have been carried to the throne of Godhead and translated in order that he should never experience death. See Genesis 5: 23-24. And Hebrew 11: 5.

All genetic lines that have descended from the eight souls in the boat, have within them the living ancestral spirit of Enoch, the cornerstone to who, all the spirits of man are gathered in his evolution to the ends of this cycle of universal Activity. And the stone that the builders of the universal church of Constantine had rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

No man has ascended to heaven, EXCEPT He who came down, even The Son of Man who IS in heaven.

It was the spirit=information=words of the Son of Man, which descended from the heights of time, with which the man Jesus was filled, but only after he had learned though suffering, not to be like his fire and brimstone preaching righteous cousin, John the Baptist. See Hebrew 5: 7-10.

Only when he had learned that in being true to his indwelling ancestral spirit, and accepting himself, for Who He Was, and that in his obedience to Who He Was he was sinless, did the conflict that raged within him, cease, and he could then be used as the vessel through whom our Lord God and savior, Who I Am, revealed himself and the awesome sacrifice that he makes for the great androgynous body in which he had developed.

They who pass judgment on the commands of their evolving indwelling spirit, and condemn those commands as evil, has condemned Who They Are.

For just as Moses lifted up upon a pole, the IMAGE of the serpent whose venom was coursing through the veins of Gods people in the wilderness, so too, Jesus, the earthly IMAGE of the Son of Man the glorious Son of God, who like Joseph the favorite son of Israel, was forever standing before his Father, accusing his brothers who were less perfect than he, was lifted up upon a pole, in order that all those who were dying because of the poison of the Old serpent that was coursing through their veins, only had to turn their eyes to his earthly IMAGE who has been lifted up, to be saved.

Jesus, the Image of the Son of Man the Most High in the creation, who now accepts all, for Who They Are.

Only when you can accept yourself for who you are and be true to who you are, will you, like Jesus, be able to accept your brethren for Who They Are.

Does this explain to you, who the spirit was, which descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove then led him out into the wilderness where he tried to tempt him to do one act of worship to him?