Why is this called a " Christian DEbate site"

[Tex]

It seems all people do here is attack God.

It should be called an "atheist" debate site. It's most probably to get Christians to come into the lions den.

[Tex]

Before I respond directly to Tex's personal attacks and incredibly disrespectful remarks, I'd like to point out this one thing:

Tex is not representative of all Christians.

Yes, I fully understand. And I don't hold anything against Christians in general at all.

In fact, many of my friends and relatives are Christians.

On a debate forum like this I address the religion, not the people who believe in the religion.

Or at least I try to keep it to that.

I don't even have anything against Tex. Actually.

I'm just trying to explain that I address religions, not people.

The accusations that seem to come back to me is that I'm a "God Hater".

And that is a personal judgement that misses the point of a religious debate.

I understand everything you say here, and I applaud it; but I don't think you quite get what I meant. Perhaps I should have phrased it this way:

Tex's BELIEFS are not representative of the BELIEFS of all Christians.

Condemnation, arrogant judgmentalism, and blatant contempt toward all other beliefs and approaches are common among Christians, especially of the more conservative iterations of that faith -- but they are not universal, even among those believers. I have know very, very many Christians who are respectful of the beliefs of others, and even of those who reject belief entirely; the most obvious example that comes to mind is that of Otseng himself, the Christian owner and chief administrator of this very forum. That Tex most emphatically is NOT respectful in that way ought not be taken as typical of Christians -- though it is more than a little ironic that he displays his contempt for others in a thread he started in order to demand the respect from others that he refuses to display himself.

A quote from a wise Jew of ages past comes to mind: "Remove the beam from your own eye before you attempt to remove the speck from the eye of another."

(And let it be noted for the record that I am, once again, defending Christianity and not attacking it.)

Not really....But if it make you feel better.
Do you believe LOrd Jesus to be your LOrd and Savior? If not why not? Since you said you were once a Christian. OR do you believe the NT to be false.

You can hide behind your bleeding heart routine....Can you answer the question?

Why do you not accept LOrd Jesus as your Messiah or Savior anymore?

You can quote the man.....But you did insult him.

[Tex]

Before I respond directly to Tex's personal attacks and incredibly disrespectful remarks, I'd like to point out this one thing:

Tex is not representative of all Christians.

Yes, I fully understand. And I don't hold anything against Christians in general at all.

In fact, many of my friends and relatives are Christians.

On a debate forum like this I address the religion, not the people who believe in the religion.

Or at least I try to keep it to that.

I don't even have anything against Tex. Actually.

I'm just trying to explain that I address religions, not people.

The accusations that seem to come back to me is that I'm a "God Hater".

And that is a personal judgement that misses the point of a religious debate.

Tex: You made that claim.....But then said it doesn't matter.....because how can I(YOU) hate something that I(you) believe is not true.

Seems pretty convenient doesn't it?

[cnorman18]

Not really....But if it make you feel better.

"Not really" what?

Do you believe LOrd Jesus to be your LOrd and Savior? If not why not? Since you said you were once a Christian. OR do you believe the NT to be false.

You can hide behind your bleeding heart routine....Can you answer the question?

Why do you not accept LOrd Jesus as your Messiah or Savior anymore?

Am I required to answer while I stand on one foot? (Do you even understand that reference?)

The short answer to your first question is, of course, "No." That does not mean that I deny that he is your Lord and Savior. That said, the rest of your questions do not have quick-and-simple answers, as you seem to expect, and they are a good deal more nuanced and complex, at least from my point of view, than you are likely to find acceptable. If you're truly interested, I have written about my conversion in the "Questions for a Specific User" subforum and in many other places. But since I suspect you're only looking for a quick way to pigeonhole and condemn me, I don't feel any obligation to jump through your hoops.

Suffice it to say here that I do NOT say that Christianity is false, nor have I ever; nor do I claim to know for certain that Judaism is true. I say only that the Jewish religion is the right one for ME. Beyond that, I decline to allow others to judge me, thank you very much, since I do not judge you.

Your behavior, which reveals your open contempt for others who disagree with you, yes; but that is quite another matter.

You can quote the man.....But you did insult him.

Never. Wouldn't think of it.

Now, my turn: above, you quoted a post that was not addressed to you, but you have ignored another -- specifically, this one -- which was. Would you care to answer it now?

[AdHoc]

Your cartoon really doesn't resonate with me. Can you please specify when Tex or I "used Christianity to belittle you"?

Being a non-Christian the cartoon resonates with me quite well.

To begin with I don't need to specify when you or Tex have personally belittled me. I never made the claim that either of you were personally guilty of that. Although, having said that I could show where Tex had made such comments toward me personally, not in this thread, but in others. I'm not going to do that though because it's clear that he has already been cited for various violations of this nature on this site. You can go to the probation thread and click on the links to the offensive posts there.

The cartoon is quite valid in general, not just with respect to me personally. I did not create that cartoon and that fact that it exists on the web is evidence that I'm not the only one who agrees with its message.

I'm not even an atheist, and I've been insulted and belittled by many Christianity for merely not embracing and supporting Christianity. Do you think they care that I actually believe in God? No. Because they don't even recognize my belief in God because I don't believe in the God of the ancient Hebrews.

So they insult me by proclaiming that I am rejecting "God" when nothing could be further from the truth.

Christianity does not own God, despite its overbearing arrogance concerning that matter.

As I searched for examples for people saying really disrespectful things about God I found a few and they were all written by you.

First off, I would never say anything disrespectful about God.

I have already provided a link that shows an example of what I was referring to.

I reject the ancient Hebrew fables about God because IMHO, it's their fables that are an insult to any God that might exist.

It's ancient fables and superstitions that I say disrespectful things about. And my purpose in doing that is to show that they are indeed unworthy of my respect. That is indeed the heart of my arguments against them.

Obviously something has happened to you in the past that really made you hate the idea of God.

I love the idea of God.

But yes, I hate the idea that you think you own God.

When did say I own God?

I can understand hating people or organizations who have wronged you. But for the life of me I can't understand hating the cross.

Hating the cross? Now we're getting somewhere.

Yes, to me the idea that any so-called "God" would have his only begotten son butchered on a pole as a symbol of "love" is so sick and demented, that yes, I most certainly do hate that idea.

Yes, I confess. I hate the idea that someone would need to be beaten and nailed to a pole before some insane sick demented God could "love" them.

To me, religious myths don't get much sicker than that. There is nothing pretty about such a thing, IMHO.

And that's just my honest sincere opinion.

Why it is that you can't understand the LOVE of my position on that is beyond me.

Why would I want to reduce love to being symbolized by a crucifixion that some God himself requires? That's not LOVE, IMHO.

Ignore it, sure. But to me it represents God's love for you. Ignore it, don't believe it, sure.
But why hate it?

Having someone beaten and nailed to a pole represents God's Love?

Would you like to debate that particular issues head-to-head?

Sure

I can give you a myriad of reasons why that makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

And I'm certain that you would be extremely hard-pressed to give me a single solitary reason why it could possibly make any sense.

You "Christians" try to ram Christianity down the throats of everyone else, accusing them of refusing to accept "God's Love", and insinuating that they "Hate God", just because they see nothing divine about Christianity.

And you even do this to people like me who actually believe in a real God.

I'm not even an atheist. I just reject religions that make God out to be a monster.

The harder you push Christianity at me, the harder I'll push back.

~~~~~

In fact, here's something that I'm certain never crosses your mind:

I have tried in the past on discussion forums to just present my mystical views of God and just totally ignore Christianity.

Do you think that's possible?

No way!

The Christians will immediately pounce on my thread screaming that "Only Jesus is Lord" and that my mystical views of God, are sick demented views that are clearly from Satan!

You people won't even allow other religions to be expressed with having to jump in and accuse the believers of those other spiritual philosophies of being "misguided" or possessed by Satan.

"You Christians"? "You people"? Why am I being thrown under the bus with whatever ignotant person(s) you are speaking of

So trust me, I've been there in the past, trying to support the truly beautiful mystical views of God only to have mud thrown at me by the Christians who "Hate" anyone who doesn't worship Jesus as Lord.

So that's why I finally gave in and realize that the only way to deal with Christianity is to meet it HEAD ON.

The Christians really give me no choice in the matter.

I submit that anyone who hates a person who doesn't worship Jesus as Lord is not a Christian

All I ask from any Christian is to simply comprehend why I have legitimate reasons for dismissing Christianity as being implausible and unrealistic.

But no, they refuse to allow for that. Instead all the do is continually accuse me of "Hating God" etc, just because I find Christianity to be utterly despicable.

By the way, I don't even reject Jesus, or the moral teachings attributed to Jesus.

I totally accept that Jesus was most likely a Mahayana Buddhist. Misunderstood, and made into the monster of Christianity via outrageous superstitions perhaps, but still a good man in spite of that.

And I'll gladly debated anyone on that issue head-to-head anytime they so choose.

Even the Jews reject that Jesus was "The Christ".

I just go a bit further and reject the fables of the God of the Old Testament too.

I place God far ABOVE any of that disgusting sickness.

So as far as I'm concerned I'm the one who's trying hard to support a far better picture of God.

Fair enough. I'm hearing you loud and clear that you have been treated with disrespect by christians but do you hear me that it hurts to read what you write sometimes about the God I serve?

[Tex]

You can quote the man.....But you did insult him.

Never. Wouldn't think of it.

Tex: Well...you did .....You claim he was not the Christ. By this, you say, that billion of people have died in vain. That they were fooled by the Apostles and Christ himself.

Do I have to post scripture from the NT? Or do you also believe the scripture of Christians to be fables.

So if you want to believe as the Jews , then believe....But please don't insult me by telling me the Lord was just a" Man". To Christians he is are King and always was and always will be.

[Tex]

Suffice it to say here that I do NOT say that Christianity is false, nor have I ever; nor do I claim to know for certain that Judaism is true. I say only that the Jewish religion is the right one for ME. Beyond that, I decline to allow others to judge me, thank you very much, since I do not judge you.

Tex: You don't have to say it.....You say Christ was just a man.....You say you don't believe Christ to be your Christ. You were a CHRISTIAN.....Then you left the faith to become part of the Jewish faith.

I don't judge you.....Who am I that you should worry.
I can't judge no one. If I judge then you must think I have the power to condemn. I can't condemn anyone. You don't have to worry about me.

[cnorman18]

You can quote the man.....But you did insult him.

Never. Wouldn't think of it.

Tex: Well...you did .....You claim he was not the Christ.

That is another falsehood. I have NEVER said that Jesus was not the Christ. Feel free to find a quote where I did; I have over 7,000 posts here -- better start hunting.

What I HAVE said is that Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. which is an entirely different concept and distinct from the Christian Christ. I have even explicitly said that Jesus may very well have been sent by God to be the "Messiah" for the Gentiles, in order that non-Jews might receive knowledge of the One God and the wisdom of His Prophets; but that is not, truly, for me to say. It is a possibility, but I cannot claim knowledge of it -- just as I cannot claim certain knowledge of the truth of Judaism.

By this, you say, that billion of people have died in vain. That they were fooled by the Apostles and Christ himself.

I have also said, and more than once, that I believe that God will honor the sincere beliefs of those who worship Him in whatever way they find or choose. I do not believe that anyone has ever "died in vain," nor have I ever said that anyone has been "fooled."

You have a very bad habit of putting words in the mouths of others. In order to feel more outraged? Not for me to say. But you certainly do it, and it is neither accurate, nor honest, nor acceptable as a debating tactic.

Do I have to post scripture from the NT? Or do you also believe the scripture of Christians to be fables.

The New Testament is not Scripture to Jews. That means only that it is not authoritative for us, which is not the same as saying it is false. I have no knowledge of that and do not claim to. I have, for the record, studied the NT extensively under world-class scholars at Southern Methodist University, and I regard NONE of it as "fable" or "fiction" or anything of the kind. The fact that I no longer accept it as Scripture does not mean or imply any such thing.

I do not even regard the Hebrew Bible as "the Word of God" as you probably do; I regard it as the literature of the Jewish people, and neither history, science treatise, nor the direct words of the Almighty. Again, that is not the same as saying it is "false" or a "fable."

So if you want to believe as the Jews , then believe....But please don't insult me by telling me the Lord was just a" Man".

But how do I "believe as a Jew," which you very kindly give me permission to do here, and say anything else about him? That is what Jews believe. A good man, no doubt; but only a man, for all that. Not God, nor son of God, nor Messiah.

I give you permission to disagree, but not to dictate my own beliefs.

To Christians he is are King and always was and always will be.

And you are certainly entitled to that opinion and belief, and, as I say below and have said many times, I do not call it false. I say only that it is not MY opinion or belief. Do you understand that distinction?

Suffice it to say here that I do NOT say that Christianity is false, nor have I ever; nor do I claim to know for certain that Judaism is true. I say only that the Jewish religion is the right one for ME. Beyond that, I decline to allow others to judge me, thank you very much, since I do not judge you.

Tex: You don't have to say it.....You say Christ was just a man.....You say you don't believe Christ to be your Christ. You were a CHRISTIAN.....Then you left the faith to become part of the Jewish faith.

Yes. That is my right and my decision, I believe. Do you think you have the right to dictate such decisions to others?

You have the right to disagree, and that is all. You do not have the right to condemn me for it, as you have inarguably done, and put words in my mouth that purport to show that I say and believe things that I don't.

I don't judge you.....

Of course you do. Every word you write here shows that you do. The fact that you don't use the word "judge" doesn't prove much. Do you not regard me as a traitor or apostate or renegade of some kind? If not, why do you keep throwing up the fact that I was once a Christian and am now a Jew in such an obviously condemnatory way? You certainly aren't just acknowledging that fact without criticism or negative comment. To you, stating the fact that I am a convert to Judaism obviously IS a criticism -- and "criticism" means "judgment."

Who am I that you should worry.
I can't judge no one. If I judge then you must think I have the power to condemn. I can't condemn anyone. You don't have to worry about me.

Why would I worry about you? All I have ever said here is that I disagree with you. The fact that you disagree with me is just a corollary of that fact, and I have no problem with it. Apparently you do.

If you really regard the fact that others do not share your beliefs as some sort of insult or slander, then this, truly, is not the place for you. You'd better not even bring up the subject of religion with anyone OUTSIDE of the Internet in your "real life," because you are liable to discover that there are MANY people, even many Christians, who do not believe as you do, and you will inevitably walk around feeling "insulted" most of the time.

I respect your beliefs. Why can you not just respect mine and let it go? Jesus himself was a Jew, you know. He never disrespected nor condemned the beliefs of others; he healed the servant of a Roman centurion, who was obviously neither a Jew nor a Christian, and spoke no word of judgment or condemnation to him. Who DID he condemn? Those among his own people who professed to be holier and more pious than others and were without either compassion or humility. At least that's the way it looks in the NT that I read. Is it not in yours?

[Tex]

That is another falsehood. I have NEVER said that Jesus was not the Christ. Feel free to find a quote where I did; I have over 7,000 posts here -- better start hunting.

Tex: Word games again.....Do you believe Lord Jesus to be the Christ then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

[Tex]

I respect your beliefs. Why can you not just respect mine and let it go? Jesus himself was a Jew, you know. He never disrespected nor condemned the beliefs of others; he healed the servant of a Roman centurion, who was obviously neither a Jew nor a Christian, and spoke no word of judgment or condemnation to him. Who DID he condemn? Those among his own people who professed to be holier and more pious than others and were without either compassion or humility. At least that's the way it looks in the NT that I read. Is it not in yours?

[/quote]

Tex:If I told you this....What would you say to me?

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son.

[Goat]

That is another falsehood. I have NEVER said that Jesus was not the Christ. Feel free to find a quote where I did; I have over 7,000 posts here -- better start hunting.

Tex: Word games again.....Do you believe Lord Jesus to be the Christ then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

Christians believe him so.. but the Christain concept of 'The Christ' is a different concept of the Jewish Messiah. Jesus does not qualify for being the Jewish Messiah. Christians can call Jesus anything they want, but they do not have the right to impose their religious concepts on another religion.

The Jewish faith does not accept the Christian concept of 'The Christ' to be valid for Judaism.