Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[cnorman18]

Just putting in an observation, in response to no one, that might be relevant to this whole question -- inspired by a Religious School class I was teaching last Sunday.

To Christians, the entire Bible is all of a piece, all the Word of God, all equally authoritative. That partly explains why they put so much stock in the various "prophecies" they find in Isaiah, the Psalms, Daniel, and so on.

For Jews, this is not the case; there is a hierarchy of authority in the Hebrew Bible, and it is not all equal.

The most sacred and authoritative part of the Bible is the Torah, which consists of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. THAT is the Torah that we study so assiduously, that we read through in services over the course of every year, and that is the foundation of our religion -- WHATEVER its origins and provenance.

Those books are, of course, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

The rest of the Bible is neither so sacred nor so authoritative. After the Torah come the Prophets -- Nevi'im in Hebrew -- which are revered, but not studied as much; they refer mostly to events in their own times. These books are not coequal with the Torah or even close to it; they might even be considered the first commentary on the Torah. The term "Prophet" to Jews does not denote one who tells the future -- that's very rare, in Jewish teaching, and generally only happens in the short term to prove a point to a specific audience. "Prophet" means "one who speaks the truth." There are, to be sure, "prophecies of the End of Days -- but those have never been considered detailed blueprints of things that are to come, but only metaphorical and poetic statements about the eventual and ultimate destiny of the world.

The Prophets include, first, the major prophetic books: These are Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel; and the minor prophets, which are Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habbakuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.

The rest, after the Prophets, is called the "Writings" -- in Hebrew, Khethuvi'im -- and those are even less sacred and less authoritative. Those consist of historical court records, hymns and songs, poems, "wisdom" literature (like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes), and so on. They are a vital and beloved part of our heritage, but they are not considered coequal with the Torah any more than the Prophets are -- in fact, much less.

The Writings are: First, Psalms, Proverbs, and Job; then the "five megilloth or Scrolls, which are read on certain Jewish holidays; The Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, and Esther; and finally, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and 1 and 2 Chronicles. These last were considered, even by the rabbis and sages of old, to be rather late books and to be taken with a few grains of salt -- and all of the Writings were definitely considered works of imagination and literary creativity. I don't think that any of them were ever read literally, even when they were newly written.

The Hebrew name for the Jewish Bible is Tanakh; this is a Hebrew acronym formed by the first letters of the three sections -- T, N, Kh; Torah, Nevi'im, Khethuvi'im. These constitute the Hebrew Bible, but it is only the Torah that is read in services from enormous handwritten scrolls that are kept covered in the Ark (a cabinet) at the front of the sanctuary, where an altar would be in Christian churches.

Perhaps all that will help. I've often said that we Jews read the Bible in a different way than Christians, and this may by the primary difference. It also explains why the order of the books in Jewish Bibles differs from that in Christian ones.

Thanks! Very helpful. Where does the Talmud fit into this hierarchy? I understand it to be an ever growing commentary on the Tanakh. Is that correct? Does it have more or less authority than the writings, for example? Or is it more a matter of how one values individual Rabbi's and their contributions?

The Talmud is the written expression of what is called the "Oral Torah." Tradition says that God gave Moses the keys to the interpretation of the Torah and some details (like those of kosher slaughter, for instance) that are vital but not found in the text. This was to be passed down from teacher to student without being committed to writing -- unless it was determined that it was in danger of being lost.

In the late 2nd century of the common era, Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi, aka Rabbenu HaQadosh (in English, Rabbi Judah the Prince, or Our Holy Master/Teacher), the leader of the Jewish community in Judea, made the determination that the Oral Torah was indeed in danger of being lost, after a series of terrible pogroms and massacres in which the majority of the rabbinical students in Palestine were killed. He therefore ordered, and took charge of, the committing of the Oral Torah to writing. (His authority to do this was beyond question; he was not only the ranking rabbi in Judea, he was of the Davidic line and thus most probably the "rightful heir" to the throne of Israel -- and was also apparently a close personal friend of the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius, who would come to him for advice not only on personal matters, but on affairs of state. There has never been anyone quite like him, before or since.)

The resulting document, which was supervised and redacted by Rabbi Judah and others, known as Tannaim, is called the Mishnah. This is the core of the Talmud, and it consists, interestingly, of the record of a series of debates and arguments on various aspects of Jewish law and practice. (It would appear that one of the major principles of the Oral Torah was that we humans were charged with the responsibility of working out the meaning of the Torah, as well as of Justice and Righteousness, for ourselves.)

Over the next few centuries, layer upon layer of commentary was added to this core document; this is called the Gemara. The Mishnah and Gemara together constitute the Talmud. The Talmud was closed sometime in the late fifth or early sixth century CE, though commentaries on the Torah (notably that of Rashi, the tenth-century French rabbi whose work is still studied today) and responsa continue to be written into the present day.

The authority of the Talmud is much like that of other works of Jewish religious literature; it is studied, with great respect and reverence, but it is not followed slavishly or without question. Indeed, one of the remarkable things about the debates and arguments in the Talmud is that they do not always have a conclusion or end with a definitive ruling. When the sages could not come to a consensus, very often the final word is "Let both answers stand as correct," even if they are mutually exclusive. No one felt capable or speaking for God, and so the practices and laws of the Jewish religion were ALWAYS pluralistic to a degree.

The final authority in the Jewish religion is not a book, not even the Torah; it is no Supreme Council, since none has existed since the fifth century; and there has never been a Jewish Pope. The final authority is the consensus of the Wise among our people, who are also identified by consensus -- and thus, it can truly be said that the final authority in Judaism is human reason. One of the lesser-known dicta of the Talmud is that "a well-ordered logical argument has the same authority as a Scriptural command."

My own rabbi teaches that "If one sees something in the Torah" -- the most authoritative of Jewish books, let us remember -- "that you know to be wrong, there are two and only two possibilities; either you do not understand the Torah properly, or the Torah is wrong." Note that the third alternative, common in other religions -- that is, overruling our own rational, critical thought and moral sense in favor of religious dogma -- is not permitted to us. We are to THINK, and THINK HARD, and HONESTLY, as a PEOPLE -- and NEVER toss our brains, minds and hearts out the window in some false effort to get easy answer from a God Who has given US the responsibility for living our lives, caring for each other, and perfecting our world.

I hope that's helpful.

[Danmark]

The authority of the Talmud is much like that of other works of Jewish religious literature; it is studied, with great respect and reverence, but it is not followed slavishly or without question. Indeed, one of the remarkable things about the debates and arguments in the Talmud is that they do not always have a conclusion or end with a definitive ruling. When the sages could not come to a consensus, very often the final word is "Let both answers stand as correct," even if they are mutually exclusive. No one felt capable or speaking for God, and so the practices and laws of the Jewish religion were ALWAYS pluralistic to a degree.

The final authority in the Jewish religion is not a book, not even the Torah; it is no Supreme Council, since none has existed since the fifth century; and there has never been a Jewish Pope. The final authority is the consensus of the Wise among our people, who are also identified by consensus -- and thus, it can truly be said that the final authority in Judaism is human reason. One of the lesser-known dicta of the Talmud is that "a well-ordered logical argument has the same authority as a Scriptural command."

My own rabbi teaches that "If one sees something in the Torah" -- the most authoritative of Jewish books, let us remember -- "that you know to be wrong, there are two and only two possibilities; either you do not understand the Torah properly, or the Torah is wrong." Note that the third alternative, common in other religions -- that is, overruling our own rational, critical thought and moral sense in favor of religious dogma -- is not permitted to us. We are to THINK, and THINK HARD, and HONESTLY, as a PEOPLE -- and NEVER toss our brains, minds and hearts out the window in some false effort to get easy answer from a God Who has given US the responsibility for living our lives, caring for each other, and perfecting our world.

I hope that's helpful.

Very! I have to say I like it. It explains why we don't have television Rabbi's out pounding the podium declaring they speak for god. Makes me wonder how these upstart, frequently juvenile sounding, pontificating versions of Christianity ever emerged from such a reasonable tradition.

[arian]

The demons thought the end had come. It had not. From their point of view this alleged messiah, who was supposed to bring the end of days, was powerless in that regard. They no doubt told their boss about this and Satan proceeded to gear up big time for world domination. By not bringing about the end of days as had been promised, God encouraged Satan. How can you trust a bumbling God like that? What makes you think any other promises are going to be kept?

You miss the entire reason the Messiah was to come. This is one of the reasons Jews still wear the 'laws of Moses' on the outside of their foreheads during Jewish celebrations. (talking about believing in a bumbling god?)

Wrong. The episode with the woman and the child happens after the seventh trumpet when the end of days is already well under way. It is not in the past. It is in the future. I already pointed that out and you did not address it. Having Satan be the post-rebellion incarnation of evil in the NT is inconsistent with the picture presented in the OT. Reference to that kind of Satan cannot be used to justify the idea of Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

Revelations reveals events, glimpses of the past, present and future not necessarily in chronological order.

If I found the NT writings and read them, ... and then fifty years later found out about the OT writings and read them, I would not think that creation of the world and the universe (Genesis) was after Jesus walked the earth and was crucified (New Testament). I bet even I could figure out which story came first. The same with Revelations. You have to try to understand it from Johns perspective, as a 'believer and follower of Christ' ... only you not believing in God can somewhat interfere with that... I would think.

First, that the kingdom of God will be established forcibly, by the sword to speak metaphorically.

I believe that is exactly how Constantine understood it.

Isaiah 1
24 Therefore the Lord, the Lord Almighty,
the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
Ah! I will vent my wrath on my foes
and avenge myself on my enemies.
25 I will turn my hand against you;
I will thoroughly purge away your dross
and remove all your impurities.
26 I will restore your leaders as in days of old,
your rulers as at the beginning.
Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness,
the Faithful City.
27 Zion will be delivered with justice,
her penitent ones with righteousness.
28 But rebels and sinners will both be broken,
and those who forsake the Lord will perish.

Isaiah 2
12 The Lord Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty,
and all the oaks of Bashan,
14 for all the towering mountains
and all the high hills,
15 for every lofty tower
and every fortified wall,
16 for every trading ship
and every stately vessel.
17 The arrogance of man will be brought low
and human pride humbled;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18 and the idols will totally disappear.
19 People will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
20 In that day people will throw away
to the moles and bats
their idols of silver and idols of gold,
which they made to worship.
21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks
and to the overhanging crags
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.

Isaiah 11
12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.
13 Ephraims jealousy will vanish,
and Judahs enemies will be destroyed;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.
14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will subdue Edom and Moab,
and the Ammonites will be subject to them.
15 The Lord will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River.
He will break it up into seven streams
so that anyone can cross over in sandals.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.

Isaiah 25
10 The hand of the Lord will rest on this mountain;
but Moab will be trampled in their land
as straw is trampled down in the manure.
11 They will stretch out their hands in it,
as swimmers stretch out their hands to swim.
God will bring down their pride
despite the cleverness of their hands.
12 He will bring down your high fortified walls
and lay them low;
he will bring them down to the ground,
to the very dust.

Isaiah 26
11 Lord, your hand is lifted high,
but they do not see it.
Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame;
let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.

I couldn't quoted this better myself ThatGirlAgain, ... a perfect example of what has been going on for the past 4,000 years and what is coming on mankind and the Jews soon. Then everything will be burnt up (the old earth and the old heavens) and the New Eternal Kingdom revealed.

Isaiah 26
19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise"
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy"
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

That is the Day of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead, ... veyr good.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

Not hide, hide, but hide from the influence of wickedness, (come out of her my people) ... like that.

21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

That Day of the Lord is coming, ... you see that? Jesus will return with power and might NOT to save this time, but "to punish the people of the earth for their sins."

Isaiah 59
17 He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
and the helmet of salvation on his head;
he put on the garments of vengeance
and wrapped himself in zeal as in a cloak.
18 According to what they have done,
so will he repay
wrath to his enemies
and retribution to his foes;
he will repay the islands their due.
19 From the west, people will fear the name of the Lord,
and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.
For he will come like a pent-up flood
that the breath of the Lord drives along.
20 The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,
declares the Lord.

The Isaiah 26 reference to the resurrection of the dead makes it clear that it is the end of days that Isaiah is talking about.

The kingdom will be a physical one.

A real one, a spiritual kingdom not a physical one. Only it is explained in a physical sense for the OT listeners to understand, those who still lived according to the flesh and not according to the spirit. This Spiritual understanding came with Christ, and after He left, He sent that Spiritual Kingdom for those who are born again and enter it with their spiritual minds. You can see these symbolic 'spiritual' references next in Isaiah:

Isaiah 60
10 Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.
11 Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations"
their kings led in triumphal procession.
12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.
13 The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
the juniper, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn my sanctuary;
and I will glorify the place for my feet.
14 The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the Lord,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15 Although you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one traveling through,
I will make you the everlasting pride
and the joy of all generations.
16 You will drink the milk of nations
and be nursed at royal breasts.
Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
17 Instead of bronze I will bring you gold,
and silver in place of iron.
Instead of wood I will bring you bronze,
and iron in place of stones.
I will make peace your governor
and well-being your ruler.
18 No longer will violence be heard in your land,
nor ruin or destruction within your borders,
but you will call your walls Salvation
and your gates Praise.

Zechariah 8
19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.
20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going. 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.
23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

Look; This is what the Lord Almighty says: In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.

Now if you think that is not of a future spiritual reference then you are not being too honest with yourself. These Jews are the 'believers', those who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ, not the physically minded unbelieving Jews of today.

Ezekiel 39
7 I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. 8 It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of.

Who are the biggest profaners of Gods Holy name today if not the Jews? TV, Movies, music, Comedians all Jews that mock God and His beloved Son Jesus Christ. From Mel Brooks Hystory of the World part 1, to Bill Mahers religulous, to Adam Sandler and the rest of the 'Fockers' (the movie meet the Fockers) all mocking God and boasting their atheism while the Nazis are laughing their heads off that they finally made you believe that you are nothing but evolved animals, 'sub-human' just as they said during the holocaust. The Jews continue to serve the Beast, just as they did in the concentration camps where only one Nazi was needed to watch over a thousand Jews. The rest they made sure were able to go to the front lines, ... well it IS the same way today.
This is why I asked you to come over my house and I will show you first hand.

9 Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up"the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. 10 They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them, declares the Sovereign Lord.

You don't actually think this is talking about the Jews today are you? It is all spiritual talk... way above the smart brains of our Jews of today, ... unless they turn and heed the warning of the Sovereign Lord!

Isaiah 51
3 The Lord will surely comfort Zion
and will look with compassion on all her ruins;
he will make her deserts like Eden,
her wastelands like the garden of the Lord.
Joy and gladness will be found in her,
thanksgiving and the sound of singing.
4 Listen to me, my people;
hear me, my nation:
Instruction will go out from me;
my justice will become a light to the nations.

But there will be no more death or suffering.

Isaiah 25
6 On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine"
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his peoples disgrace
from all the earth.

Now, can you cite OT references that somehow negate all of the above and also predict that the kingdom will be invisible and that it will somehow arrive long before the end of days? Remember it has to be OT references to establish Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. NT references to invisible kingdoms are flimflams intended to cover up the fact that the alleged messiah failed to deliver on the promises.[/quote]

Invisible to the physical eyes, as the teaching of Christ is to them today. How long will it take for those laws of Moses the Jews wear on their foreheads to sink into their brains, into their minds and hearts? Does EVERYTHING has to be physical to them? The reality is God and no one has seen God with their eyes. You must come to know God, and frankly, saying you don't believe in God is NOT the way to go about it.

According to the OT (see all the above quotes an especially see Isaiah 11) the Kingdom of God will be ruled by the Jewish Messiah. It will be an earthly kingdom blessed by God with a human descendent of David as its earthly ruler.

Isaiah 2]
2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lords temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say,
Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
5 Come, descendants of Jacob,
let us walk in the light of the Lord

This is talking about the Jew Jesus Christ, ... with the final destruction of this earthly rule of Satan, and that New Eternal Kingdom revealed. How could you not see this?

The destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem happened. But they were supposed to be followed very quickly by the Second Coming. Did not happen. By the time that John and Acts were written this had become painfully obvious and other excuses were needed. John has it become a misunderstanding that it would happen quickly despite the very explicit language of the Synoptic Gospels and the clear expectation of Paul. Acts changes it from Jesus returning to the Holy Spirit, again despite explicit language in the Synoptics and Paul about an imminent return of Jesus and a universal judgment.

Not only do the OT prophecies fall flat. So do the NT ones.

No, not only the Holy Spirit that entered the believers, but the Spiritual Kingdom that was revealed to their minds. I know it IS hard, but we have to at least start to imagine the 'mind/spirit/soul' of man separate from the body. I had a hard time separating it too because we think that the brain creates the mind, ... that somehow those electrical impulses make up the 'mind', but it's not. The mind is our spirit that resides in this temple, or body and even though it is invisible, it is very real, ... without it we could not reason, walk, talk, create, OR live. We would be no different than a clay sculpture.

The New Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom that for now only our 'mind' can enter in and out from. And as Jesus said; "where two or three are gathered in my name, there I will be in the midst of you" It is NOT by sight...

Once more: This spiritual kingdom is not what was prophesized. Something entirely different was prophesized. It did not happen. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

Evolution and the Big Bang are irrelevant to what the OT says, which is entirely different from what the NT says. That is the subject of the debate, whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. And the answer is no.

It is exactly that, Evolution and the BB theory that has blinded you making you believe that you are sub-human that keeps you believing Satans lie that Jesus is NOT the Messiah. Evolution is very relevant against seeing the truth before you. That is the whole reason Satan makes his followers, his children teach it! Animals are far easier to manage than humans, ... especially 'believers', and we should have learned that from the last holocaust.

You really have no answer to all of the objections to Jesus being the Jewish Messiah, do you? Debate the topic, not fall back on some rally round the flag Us vs. Them scenario, invoking everything except the subject itself.

I have debated, I do debate and I will keep debating and try to open your eyes my friend. You can't see what you refuse to see, you can't believe that Jesus is the Messiah if you don't believe in God... it just won't work that way, it can't work that way... sorry.

And again: You really have no answer to all of the objections to Jesus being the Jewish Messiah, do you? Debate the topic, not fall back on some rally round the flag Us vs. Them scenario.

Every objection you have pointed out from Scriptures actually supports that a Messiah will come, and will be a descendent of David, be rejected by His People he came for, and die, be resurrected, bring the laws into the minds and hearts of men, through Jews because He was a Jew save the whole world, and finally bring in the Eternal Kingdom He promised. But if one believes he/she is sub-human, an evolved animal and denies his/her Creator, none of this really matters now does it?

It is those who sin against the ones who gladly do right whose righteous acts are like filthy rags because they are hypocritical in also sinning at the same time and against exactly those that the Lord respects for being truly righteous.

The Bible is a not a collection of Confucius says one-liners. Read " and quote " in context.

Sorry, and thanks... only my last two older computers are taken down, the Nazis are putting more pressure on me and my family, my faxes don't work because they took them out, my printers no longer function for the same reason, all my teeth hurt from them destroying them all, we can not get a loan to get out of debt or be able to pay our utility bills because the Nazi occupied banks say because, ... well it's 'just because' as they said, so I am using the Apple computer which I'm not used to, to answer your questions... and I'm not quoting Scripture like I used to... sorry. If it wasn't Gods will for me to stay alive, ... they would have killed me a long time ago. It's not like I could call upon a fellow Jew to help me LOL.

If you have indeed seen Jesus and angels and demons and that others can see this for themselves by coming to your house, I suggest that you get in touch with Randi. Convincing him will convince the world.

Wow, ... tell this Randi to contact me PM or E-mail ASAP. I don't know how long before the Nazis take away our phone too, and cable internet, as they removed the ground phone line already. Oh well, we lived without phone in the past. Hey, I mean what is power if you can't exercise it, right? They sure enjoy causing pain and destruction I can tell you that much. Poisoning, ... I tell you they have perfected it, they have got it down to an art to where they convince their victims to administer their own poison to themselves LOL... what else can I say but LOL?

I already gave extensive quotes on how the kingdom will be established by force according to the OT. If the NT says differently, then Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

Well according to you God is not God either since you don't believe in God, ... so how would I debate what you just said?

Give me OT references to support your claim. I have already given lots of OT references that say the opposite of what you say. NT references will not work. If they contradict the OT it will only prove that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.

No contradiction my friend, only lack of understanding. It is hard to understand what you don't believe in.

It IS obvious, that is why the war against it!

Totally unobvious, being both invisible and apparently having no way of verifying its actuality as well as contradicting the OT all over the place.

The OT was dictated to Prophets by an invisible God, why are you using it then? Have you verified the validity of this invisible God before you use His prophesies?

I gave the OT quotes above. Find OT quotes that say something else. NT quotes do not count. If they contradict the OT, then Jesus is not the Jewish messiah.

There is no contradiction... only the lack or unwillingness to comprehend. If you don't believe in God, it's hard to understand His Prophesies.

In the rich man story Jesus shows that no matter how much 'works' we do, it is not enough because there is always something we will lack in. Jesus is the paid-in-full release, not our deeds.

Wrong. In Mark 10, when the man says he has always obeyed the action oriented commandments that Jesus specified, Jesus looked at him and loved him. Jesus realized that this was exactly the kind of person he wanted to help spread the word about the need for a return to righteousness. So Jesus invited him to shed all his worldly ties and follow Jesus on the road along with his other disciples. For everyone to sell their possessions and give to the poor would make the poor rich and ineligible for heaven. And who bought all those possessions anyway? They would now need to sell them to be saved. Who is going to buy them? Only the poor have any money now. But now the poor have all these possession they have to sell. And where are the poor that they are supposed to give to once they sell? And who did the buying this time?

Making the advice to the rich man a universal injunction simply does not work. Having Jesus invite him and him alone to join the itinerant band of disciples on the road works very well.

Why give the Red Cross money to rebuild hurricane torn places, ... another one will eventually come along again and again and they will need more money to rebuild, ... over and over again. Same with tornadoes, earth quakes, wars and so on.

You completely misunderstand the rich young ruler story. I have explained this to you several times before... only it doesn't make sense to you since you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, or that God exists. Heck, you don't even believe you are a human created in your Creators image?

As quoted extensively above, the kingdom of God on earth is all that there will be. Anyone who does not come into the kingdom gets destroyed. And that is all very literally physical, not some twisted metaphor.

Yes the physical part will be all destroyed... and that new Kingdom is an Everlasting Spiritual kingdom, only visible to the New spiritual born-again people of God. This cannot pass away because it is more real than this decaying physical creation that we infected with sin. That New Kingdom 'is all that there will be', and very real.

So it IS deeds that gain salvation. Upstream you said it was not, that deeds were filthy rags (by quoting out of context).

Faith without works is dead, and the only thing 'works' shows is our faith and love. If we do evil, it shows we don't believe in God, and that we hate. If we do good it shows we do believe, but will not get us in Heaven. Jesus gets us in Heaven, our works can only show we believe in Jesus.

Works in the Lord shows faith in the Lord. Works for the church or self shows faith in the church or self. The church will not save anyone, nor will the self, Jesus saves.
Helping those fellow believers who are in need reveals love, and those that show love show that they believe in God of love which in turn reveals that Christ is in us, and we in Christ.
If we love only those that love us and help only those that repay us, we loose our reward, ... but the reward is after we are saved and can collect on only after we enter Heaven.

Is this a little more clear?

According to Mark, Matthew and Luke, the end of days was supposed to immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, while some of the people hearing the words of Jesus were still alive. Should have been finished a long time ago.

Face it. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. I do not see you even trying to address that point anymore.

Jesus is the Jewish messiah and the entire NT reveals this in clear understandable language, and is revealed to those that want to hear, not to those that don't believe in God.

First thing first, do you seek the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind? If no, then trying to understand what you don't believe in, nor seek to believe in is useless, it will never happen.

You can lead a kid to school, but you can't make him learn, ... or is that a horse to water but can't make him drink?... well, anyways... thanks my friend, and remember that Jesus IS the Messiah.

[cnorman18]

...This is one of the reasons Jews still wear the 'laws of Moses' on the outside of their foreheads during Jewish celebrations. (talking about believing in a bumbling god?)

We don't. We wear tefillin during ordinary morning weekday services, and not on holidays or on Shabbat. The reason is in the Torah, and it is quite explicit:

And it shall be for a sign for you upon your hand, and for a memorial between your eyes, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand did the LORD bring you out of Egypt.
"Exodus 13:9

And it shall be for a sign upon your hand, and as totafot between your eyes; for with a mighty hand did the LORD bring us forth out of Egypt.
"Exodus 13:16

References to tefillin are also found in passages in Deuteronomy which are recited in the Sh'ma, the central prayer in all Jewish worship services:

And you shall bind them as a sign upon your arm, and they shall be as totafot between your eyes.
"Deuteronomy 6:8

You shall put these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall tie them for a sign upon your arm, and they shall be as totafot between your eyes.
"Deuteronomy 11:18

The meaning of totafot is uncertain; the Talmud gives the details of the tefillin -- how they are to be made and how worn.

One thing is certain; they have nothing whatever to do with the Messiah.

Well, two things; you do not know anything of substance about the Jewish religion, even if you are quite certain that you do.

As for the rest of the material you have posted here -- the New Testament holds no authority for Jews and is of no interest, Revelation least of all.

Only one thing could be of even less interest -- and it is material like this:

Who are the biggest profaners of Gods Holy name today if not the Jews? TV, Movies, music, Comedians all Jews that mock God and His beloved Son Jesus Christ. From Mel Brooks Hystory of the World part 1, to Bill Mahers religulous, to Adam Sandler and the rest of the 'Fockers' (the movie meet the Fockers) all mocking God and boasting their atheism while the Nazis are laughing their heads off that they finally made you believe that you are nothing but evolved animals, 'sub-human' just as they said during the holocaust. The Jews continue to serve the Beast, just as they did in the concentration camps where only one Nazi was needed to watch over a thousand Jews. The rest they made sure were able to go to the front lines, ... well it IS the same way today.

No comment necessary, I'm sure, so I will make none. This sort of thing speaks for itself, and very clearly.

This is why I asked you to come over my house and I will show you first hand.

Not if a gun were held to my head.

[Danmark]

Who are the biggest profaners of Gods Holy name today if not the Jews? TV, Movies, music, Comedians all Jews that mock God and His beloved Son Jesus Christ. From Mel Brooks Hystory of the World part 1, to Bill Mahers religulous, to Adam Sandler and the rest of the 'Fockers' (the movie meet the Fockers) all mocking God and boasting their atheism while the Nazis are laughing their heads off that they finally made you believe that you are nothing but evolved animals, 'sub-human' just as they said during the holocaust. The Jews continue to serve the Beast, just as they did in the concentration camps where only one Nazi was needed to watch over a thousand Jews. The rest they made sure were able to go to the front lines, ... well it IS the same way today.

No comment necessary, I'm sure, so I will make none. This sort of thing speaks for itself, and very clearly.

This is why I asked you to come over my house and I will show you first hand.

Not if a gun were held to my head.

Re: your comment [or non comment] on arian's post above [emphasis added] I have to protest. Your exhibition of tolerance to his execrable paragraph takes tolerance to an extreme. You are setting a standard too high for the rest of us. I protest!

[Danmark]

Who are the biggest profaners of Gods Holy name today if not the Jews? TV, Movies, music, Comedians all Jews that mock God and His beloved Son Jesus Christ. From Mel Brooks Hystory of the World part 1, to Bill Mahers religulous, to Adam Sandler and the rest of the 'Fockers' (the movie meet the Fockers) all mocking God and boasting their atheism while the Nazis are laughing their heads off that they finally made you believe that you are nothing but evolved animals, 'sub-human' just as they said during the holocaust. The Jews continue to serve the Beast, just as they did in the concentration camps where only one Nazi was needed to watch over a thousand Jews. The rest they made sure were able to go to the front lines, ... well it IS the same way today..

I would have reported this vile remark of yours to the moderators if the '!' had been visible, so I will have to settle for this public response. With this paragraph you have set Christianity back about 2000 years. This is the single most hateful passage I have seen on this forum. Your comment is shameful. I cannot tell you what I really think without demeaning myself. I would expect most Christians to join in protesting your sentiment.

[99percentatheism]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

Well, as the OT clearly describes the Messiah as a Teacher/Leader/Warrior, and the NT describes Jesus as a hellenistic Savior/Redeemer that is found nowhere in the OT descriptions, it seems clear that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and that Christians don't even consider him as such.

"Christ" is Greek for "Messiah."

History wise, obviously "Christians" consider Jesus (Yeshua) as the Messiah (Christ).

Serioulsy . . ., you didn't know that?

[arian]

Who are the biggest profaners of Gods Holy name today if not the Jews? TV, Movies, music, Comedians all Jews that mock God and His beloved Son Jesus Christ. From Mel Brooks Hystory of the World part 1, to Bill Mahers religulous, to Adam Sandler and the rest of the 'Fockers' (the movie meet the Fockers) all mocking God and boasting their atheism while the Nazis are laughing their heads off that they finally made you believe that you are nothing but evolved animals, 'sub-human' just as they said during the holocaust. The Jews continue to serve the Beast, just as they did in the concentration camps where only one Nazi was needed to watch over a thousand Jews. The rest they made sure were able to go to the front lines, ... well it IS the same way today..

I would have reported this vile remark of yours to the moderators if the '!' had been visible, so I will have to settle for this public response. With this paragraph you have set Christianity back about 2000 years. This is the single most hateful passage I have seen on this forum. Your comment is shameful. I cannot tell you what I really think without demeaning myself. I would expect most Christians to join in protesting your sentiment.

Please show me ONE thing in my comment above that is not true, just one. Everything I said can be verified in history books, and documentaries of personal witnesses and survivors of the holocaust including the stories my relatives and mother told us.

Hateful?
Have you seen the movies that were made of the holocaust?

Do you deny the holocaust?

Please tell me in your opinion which one was more 'hateful', the people who made those documentaries, or the people who practically wiped out my ancestors the Jews? ... or those that deny the holocaust?

I protest that you are trying to interfere with my freedom of speech! Are you trying to deny the holocaust?

Either show me why my post is hateful, or retract your offensive tone towards me.

[cnorman18]

Well, as the OT clearly describes the Messiah as a Teacher/Leader/Warrior, and the NT describes Jesus as a hellenistic Savior/Redeemer that is found nowhere in the OT descriptions, it seems clear that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and that Christians don't even consider him as such.

"Christ" is Greek for "Messiah."

Well, more accurately, "Christ" is the Greek translation of "Anointed," and "Messiah" is the Hebrew translation.

More to the point; word origins aside, the two terms do not have the same meaning for Jews and for Christians. The concept of the Jewish Messiah is not the same as the concept of the Christian Christ.

In Jewish tradition, the Messiah was to be an ordinary mortal man -- anointed, to be sure, just as King David was, but a mortal man, also just as David was. His appearance was to coincide with the beginning of the Messianic Age, an age of perfect peace, justice, and faith. There is no hint anywhere in Jewish teaching or tradition that the Messiah was to be God Incarnate, the literal Son of God, raised from the dead, or a "savior" from sin.

In Christian teachings and traditions, the Christ was all of those; God in the flesh, Son of God, raised from the dead, and a Savior from sin. Please notice; I do not say that these are not true, nor that the Christian faith is false. See below.

History wise, obviously "Christians" consider Jesus (Yeshua) as the Messiah (Christ).

And for them, he may well have been just that; as I have often posted here, and as I have told several rabbis, Jesus may well have been sent as a sort of "Messiah to the Gentiles"; the Jews have always been a small people, and the rest of humanity ought to have some way to learn of the One God and the Torah. As I've also said very often; we Jews claim to know only how God spoke to US, in the tradition; if He chose to speak to some other peoples in some other way, that is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to say He did not. (Incidentally, all the rabbis I have shared this with have "raised an eyebrow," so to speak -- but they also said that they could not say that I am wrong.)

There is no reason why Jews and Christians have to be enemies; and there is no reason why Christians may not regard Jesus as their Messiah, or even the Jewish Messiah if they like; but there is also no reason why Jews should be expected to agree on the last point.

Judaism and Christianity have common historical and literary roots; but they are two separate and distinct religions, and both have grown and changed much -- evolved, if you like -- since the first century of the common era. At one time, Christianity was briefly a Jewish sect; that did not last long. It quickly became a Gentile religion, and began to include elements and teach things that Jews may not accept and remain Jews. We are brothers, and we should cooperate and strengthen each other on the very many things we have in common; but we are not the same.

[cnorman18]

Who are the biggest profaners of Gods Holy name today if not the Jews? TV, Movies, music, Comedians all Jews that mock God and His beloved Son Jesus Christ. From Mel Brooks Hystory of the World part 1, to Bill Mahers religulous, to Adam Sandler and the rest of the 'Fockers' (the movie meet the Fockers) all mocking God and boasting their atheism while the Nazis are laughing their heads off that they finally made you believe that you are nothing but evolved animals, 'sub-human' just as they said during the holocaust. The Jews continue to serve the Beast, just as they did in the concentration camps where only one Nazi was needed to watch over a thousand Jews. The rest they made sure were able to go to the front lines, ... well it IS the same way today..

I would have reported this vile remark of yours to the moderators if the '!' had been visible, so I will have to settle for this public response. With this paragraph you have set Christianity back about 2000 years. This is the single most hateful passage I have seen on this forum. Your comment is shameful. I cannot tell you what I really think without demeaning myself. I would expect most Christians to join in protesting your sentiment.

Please show me ONE thing in my comment above that is not true, just one. Everything I said can be verified in history books, and documentaries of personal witnesses and survivors of the holocaust including the stories my relatives and mother told us.

Hateful?
Have you seen the movies that were made of the holocaust?

Do you deny the holocaust?

Please tell me in your opinion which one was more 'hateful', the people who made those documentaries, or the people who practically wiped out my ancestors the Jews? ... or those that deny the holocaust?

I protest that you are trying to interfere with my freedom of speech! Are you trying to deny the holocaust?

Either show me why my post is hateful, or retract your offensive tone towards me.

I don't know if Danmark will respond to this, but I will.

I won't show you one thing; I'll show you two. I think these quotes can be fairly described as "vile" and "hateful"

...Who are the biggest profaners of Gods Holy name today if not the Jews?

...The Jews continue to serve the Beast...

Those will do. You clearly accuse the Jewish people as a whole of deliberately committing the heinous sin of Khillul HaShem, or "shaming God's name," and then go on to accuse us of deliberately serving evil.

I'd call that "vile" and "hateful."

No one's denying the Holocaust. That's ludicrous. But to claim that the Jews were somehow complicit in the Holocaust, and docilely went to their deaths in order to make sure that only a few (!) guards were necessary to keep them prisoner, to make sure that most could go to the Front -- is beyond ludicrous. There were HUNDREDS of guards at every camp, let us note; guards armed with Schmeisser submachine guns and vicious dogs, and placed in towers with HEAVY machine guns and the authority to kill any Jew at whim -- to guard their starving and wholly unarmed Jewish prisoners. And for the record, at at least two of the camps, Sobibor and Treblinka, the prisoners DID revolt against their guards and escape. (In both cases, those who did escape were mostly murdered by the civilians and partisans, even those fighting AGAINST the Nazis, in the surrounding country. The prisoners were, after all, only Jews.)

Sorry. To post execrable slander and false accusations like that, and then to bristle at being called on it, is -- again -- beyond ludicrous. If you hurl gross insults at an entire people, don't be surprised if you hear a few objections.

No one's trying to interfere with your freedom of speech; DISAGREEMENT is not an attempt to censor anyone; it's merely other people exercising THEIR freedom of speech. Protest all you like; freedom of speech does not entail freedom from criticism or disagreement. That's ludicrous too.

I will say this: I HAVE read more hateful remarks on this forum, but then I've been here a long time -- and I haven't read very many that were worse than yours.