Miracles or Supernatural feats?

[Angel]

In a thread entitled, Must watch, evidence of Jesus Miracles captured. (somewhat), a forum member posted a video that showed a man being able to generate enough heat from his hand to make a newspaper catch on fire. Refer to 3:50 to 4:20 into the video. The man was a practitioner of QiGong (the same as Tai Chi, perhaps). I also posted information from a study on meditation and infrared video of QiGong practitioners in the act. These studies may explain how these QiGong experts are able to generate a remarkable amount of body heat and to do so quickly. I posted that here. If these feats are genuine, I wonder what the implications would be.

Debate Questions:
So as the forum member claimed, do the feats in the video I referred to show a miracle or something supernatural taking place? And does that help validate Jesus' miracles?

Some skeptics on this forum dismissed the video as a complete hoax and mentioned that it was debunked. Please provide a source that demonstrates the falsehood of the body being able to generate body heat to the point shown in the videos/study through QiGong or intense meditation. Also factor in the meditation study and infrared video I linked to earlier in this post. Thanks.

[Angel]

Let me just put in more simpler terms. If there is an unscientific level of evidence then I've met that burden.

LOL that's simple terms? I call that nonsense. You haven't provided any good evidence, scientific or otherwise. It's hard for me to imagine a psychology student, who considers faked stunts on TV to be good evidence of supernatural mind control, is going to do well for his or herself.

In terms of the video that you're referring to, I only consider that to be unscientific evidence and I haven't used that to draw any scientific conclusions. You can't fault me for being consistent, especially when you haven't proven anything to be FAKE - being on TV or being unscientific does not equal fake.

Aren't dentures tissue that should also not be able to withstand extreme temperatures just like regular teeth? At most, your point may show that the man felt no pain in his teeth since dentures are not connected to the nerves and blood vessels in the mouth that enable humans to feel pain, heat, cold, in our real teeth. That does not take away from the damage part, since the doctor did not see any damages done to the dentures.

Dentures are not made of tissue! If they're made of ceramic there wouldn't be any damage. What's the point you ask? The point is he FAKED it, which makes him dishonest, and casts serious doubt on anything else he claims.

-What exactly was faked? I don't know if not having real teeth wasn't disclosed or if it was needed or the object of the experiment as opposed to just having a piece of hot metal in his mouth, to begin with. I question why you also say that ceramic or porcelain material would not have any damages when exposed to high temperatures.

-Secondly, I've seen no evidence or verification of the man having bottom dentures, at most, it appears that he may have top dentures.

-Third, lets just say the biting of metal was not a good test because of his dentures, then we still have a real tongue with real hands that were able to touch extremely hot metal without causing any damage. Presumably, if the man can do this with 1,000 degrees F and up, then the lower the temperature, like 200 degrees F, the easier it would get for him. If anything the test was started on too much of a high scale. I would've preferred started with temperatures of 200 degrees F and then work my way upwards.

Lets not forget that the hands and tongue were used as well. I suppose you overlooked those OTHER tasks in order to give a misleading picture that there was only ONE task and that that ONE task represented the whole experiment and since that failed (although it didn't if you factor in my response) then the feat was a trick? Please learn to post FULL details before posting misleading conclusions like you've done before on this thread and REFUSED to retract it.

The guy was caught faking it with artificial teeth. The stunt was his idea and his passed it off as if it was his real teeth. That casts serious doubt on the rest of his unlikely claims. How gullible does one have to be?

Caught? You assume he never disclosed that he had dentures so that you can make it appear that he lied about something. I didn't even hear the observers mentioning anything about real teeth. Without that, then we can't say that he lied or that having real teeth was really a needed component of the experiment. And again, you also also assume that he had bottom dentures. This is all besides the point though considering that there were two other feats done, and yet you draw a conclusion based off of just ONE feat. Assuming that there is one failed part does not mean that the other parts were also failures.

[Star]

The "Master" was also busted doing the well-known tinfoil heating trick.

http://www.rickdakan.com/blog/2011/5/16 ... aster.html

This is how he got that paper towel to 200F in the Ripley's video. There's tinfoil and a chemical solution in the paper towel. I feel sorry for anyone who believes in these frauds.

[Star]

LMAO!

You can even buy the tinfoil heating magic kit on eBay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Magic-Tricks- ... 519e28fd7e

Angel. this guy is so busted, come on. It's been waste of time, but at least you made me laugh.

[Angel]

The "Master" was also busted doing the well-known tinfoil heating trick.

http://www.rickdakan.com/blog/2011/5/16 ... aster.html

This is how he got that paper towel to 200F in the Ripley's video. There's tinfoil and a chemical solution in the paper towel. I feel sorry for anyone who believes in these frauds.

Rick Dakan is not a scientist and the information that you posted comes from his BLOG site and not a scientific journal. There's not even any video footage or testing. So at best, it is just words or hearsay. I'll go over Mr. Dakan's evidence so that the readers will know about it or they can click the link and read it themselves. Let me briefly explain that Master Zhou usually uses aluminum foil, perhaps to absorb some of the heat, and dips it in water to use like a heating pad. He sometimes wraps that aluminum foil with a towel and puts it on his patients. Mr. Dakan's ONLY evidence revolves around the water which he said was really a chemical. That's it, no video footage, no testing, just his word. Is that a reliable way to determine that there's a chemical in the water or to identify a chemical that would react to aluminum foil to where it would generate heat beyond 200°F?

Interestingly, Rick Dakan prides himself in doing research to find that beauty salons used to use similar techniques, similar to what his theory is on Master Zhou's practice, using aluminum foil and sodium hydroxide (lye) to cause heat. Therefore Master Zhou is now debunked according to Rick Dickan. I actually found another person making a similar claim a few years before Rick Dakan's blog post so I wonder if Rick Dakan simply copied from that post. Refer to Eric Zammitt // Oct 15, 2007 post here.

Now since we want to introduce hearsay as evidence let me introduce my own evidence and a video showing that Star's hearsay source is problematic. Here's one person giving his own experience of Master Zhou using just water, Cyre // Mar 22, 2008

I personally have Visited Master Zhou. I come from a purely western approach at his “techniques� as i was skeptical at first. I asked to see how he performed his heating technique. He had his cup of water and roll of paper towels. Being very curious and skeptical, i dipped my fingers in the cup of fluid, smelled it, and even tasted it. As far as my perception stood. It was regular water, as for if it was tap, bottled, or distilled i can’t be for certain.

So now we have CONTRADICTORY hearsay. SO lets move on to video evidence which you can watch here that shows a patient VIDEO TAPING their session with Master Zhou:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66oxwbFE ... ure=relmfu...
In this video you'll see that ONLY water was used with no chemicals inside to drench the alumimum with. Then the patient still experiences the heat. Now when you put this evidence with the TWO other videos I showed you, the infrared camera showing the temperatures rising, the video showing Master Zhou being able to touch extreme temperatures with no damages, and the scientific study of this being done on a small scale, then I think your hearsay or opinion based evidence loses most of its ground.

[SailingCyclops]

Let me just put in more simpler terms. If there is an unscientific level of evidence then I've met that burden.

LOL that's simple terms? I call that nonsense. You haven't provided any good evidence, scientific or otherwise. It's hard for me to imagine a psychology student, who considers faked stunts on TV to be good evidence of supernatural mind control, is going to do well for his or herself.

[...]

Truth says his fingers are made of brick and you say his dentures are made of tissue. Unbelievable.

[...]

The guy was caught faking it with artificial teeth. The stunt was his idea and his passed it off as if it was his real teeth. That casts serious doubt on the rest of his unlikely claims. How gullible does one have to be?

What has become crystal clear by this exercise, is that no evidence can be produced for any of these "miracles" or supernatural events. That's to be expected, and is no surprise. What is a surprise to me is watching the extreme lengths some people will go to find something, no matter how absurd or irrational, which will allow them to reinforce their indoctrinated beliefs.

It's as if all reason, logic, common sense, and intelligent thinking is abandoned for the sake of a particular concept. I don't believe these people are inherently stupid. It just seems that their desperate need to believe in these things is so strong, that it completely clouds their otherwise competent judgement.

They wouldn't believe a Youtube video of Godzilla, or of the Marshmallow man. They wouldn't believe a magic trick of a scarf changing into a rabbit, and coming out of a hat is real. They wouldn't believe a Youtube video of a woman being sawed in half and then being put back together. But any wild and incredible stunt which in some way supports their belief system, is swallow hook line and sinker, produced as evidence, and is defended vociferously.

I think this observation is much more interesting, than the actual tricked-out "evidence" being presented. It shows how weak and fragile their beliefs are. That these folks have to force themselves to actually believe the authenticity of these magic tricks to support their pet beliefs, is, in itself, evidence that those beliefs are weakly held and false. At some level they realize those tricks and by extension their beliefs are false, but they are simply are too invested in them, or too brainwashed to see the truth. There is such a desperate need to believe, that any nonsense supporting those beliefs is seen as factual. This is amazing to me. I have never observed this level of desperation before.

[Star]

The tinfoil heating magic trick... one of the oldest, simplest, and most well-known magic tricks in human history, explainable by basic chemistry, and demonstrable by anyone using a store-bought kit, and Angel wastes hundreds of words per post defending it as being real magic which only Qigong Masters and Jesus can do.

Wow, just WOW.

[Angel]

The tinfoil heating magic trick... one of the oldest, simplest, and most well-known magic tricks in human history, explainable by basic chemistry, and demonstrable by anyone using a store-bought kit, and Angel wastes hundreds of words per post defending it as being real magic which only Qigong Masters and Jesus can do.

Wow, just WOW.

Yes, some times there are MULTIPLE ways to do something, including genuine and fraudulent ways. So I don't deny that your point is valid but what I question is if that's the only way to heat up foil and if Master Zhou used that method. It would be biased and illogical to assume that the way you're describing was the only way especially when you have NO proof of that other than HEARSAY and especially when I presented you with evidence of people who've actually gone to see Master Zhou compared to someone who's just talking over the internet. I responded to you with evidence here. Also factor in all of my other evidence of this Qingong practitioner which your particular point here does not cover.

------------------------------------------------

SailorCyclops,

I'm not here to bring up every fairy tale story for skeptics to debunk. I already know there are plenty of frauds out there. I specifically chose the body temperature subject to debate on because I found an unexplained but still scientific basis for it on a small scale. That's where I'm drawing my reasoning from and gathering more evidence for or against and to go from there. What I've seen from some skeptics here amounts to knee jerk dismissal instead of taking the time to investigate a feat before drawing conclusions.

[Star]

Yes, some times there are MULTIPLE ways to do something, including genuine and fraudulent ways. So I don't deny that your point is valid but what I question is if that's the only way to heat up foil and if Master Zhou used that method. It would be biased and illogical to assume that the way you're describing was the only way especially when you have NO proof of that other than HEARSAY and especially when I presented you with evidence of people who've actually gone to see Master Zhou compared to someone who's just talking over the internet. I responded to you with evidence here. Also factor in all of my other evidence of this Qingong practitioner which your particular point here does not cover.

That will be the second link of yours I've clicked on today alone that either doesn't work or goes somewhere other than where you said it would. We've had the same problem with you before. I will no longer click any of your links. I've wasted enough time investigating your fraudulent magic tricks. You're welcome.

[Angel]

Yes, some times there are MULTIPLE ways to do something, including genuine and fraudulent ways. So I don't deny that your point is valid but what I question is if that's the only way to heat up foil and if Master Zhou used that method. It would be biased and illogical to assume that the way you're describing was the only way especially when you have NO proof of that other than HEARSAY and especially when I presented you with evidence of people who've actually gone to see Master Zhou compared to someone who's just talking over the internet. I responded to you with evidence here. Also factor in all of my other evidence of this Qingong practitioner which your particular point here does not cover.

That will be the second link of yours I've clicked on today alone that either doesn't work or goes somewhere other than where you said it would. We've had the same problem with you before. I will no longer click any of your links.

I just checked all of the links that I posted to you in the post you're referring to. They all work - the one to a blog site (scroll down to get to the comments section) and the other to a youtube video. Which one is not working?

The Youtube video that I posted is sufficient enough evidence to counter your HEARSAY evidence that you posted in post #112.

I've wasted enough time investigating your fraudulent magic tricks. You're welcome.

Then take a break. Just don't come here trying to impose your disbelief unless you have some evidence we can work with.

[Star]

^
I already won the debate.

The Toothless Tinfoil Man is a fraud. Your argument is invalid.

Stay in school, Angel.