Did God Create Sin?

[ViperaRex]

Okay, Christians will usually say, "no, God did not create sin, it was Adam & Eve/ the Serpent, who created sin. They say; "God created the conditions through which sin might be born, but he himself did not create sin". This argument might make sense if God couldn't see the future, but according to the bible, he can, rendering this argument absolutely ridiculous, let me give you an analogy:

I Am a scientist,one day I become bored, I decide to create an experiment for my amusement, however, I know that conducting this particular experiment will release a toxic gas that will spread and kill everything within a 5 mile radius, This isn't the main point of the experiment, but it is a byproduct I know will occur. I strap on a gas mask, shrug, and do it anyway. Sure enough, the gas is released, and thousands of of people die. Surely I would be blamed for it, as I knew it would happen but did it anyway, would you defend me and say; "Hey, he didn't create the gas, he simply created the conditions in which that gas might be created, but he didn't make it". Of course you wouldn't, that makes no sense.

God didn't say, "Let there be sin", but he created it by creating the right conditions and allowing it to happen.

And thus, how can he be angry at us for sinning, when it is not really our fault that we sin, if he had not created the conditions for sin, it would not exist.

So, my question is, did God create sin?, if you believe "no", please justify it in light of all this

[Student]

[Replying to post 20 by Rkrause]

A flaw in a perfect creation?

Mankind with their knowledge of evil created a flaw (sin or evil) in Gods perfect creation.

Surely God created Evil?

After all it was God who created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The tree existed prior to Man's knowledge of Evil, therefore Evil must have existed before Man became aware of it.

God's agent [the serpent] tricked Woman, and subsequently Man into eating the fruit, so God must take responsibility for creating Evil and facilitating the entry of Evil into the world.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1 by ViperaRex]

viper, the main point is that god wanted us to be free willed beings in his image and likeness, with great gifts and virtues. he didnt want a world of robots programmed only for basic operations. so in giving us free will by definition we have the ability to reject him. rejecting god is sin. god no more created sin than he created darkness. darkness is just the absence of light. god created light. had adam and eve not blatantly defied him there would be no death or suffering.
your scientist story is a bit of a strawman. its more like when a scientist dreams up an experiment where he builds a huge ant farm. and he gives the ants enough sugar and water every day to live forever but some of the ants just gorge themselves on too much and die. some are good and store extra food for later and even share. this scientist knows some will be gluttonous but he loves the ants so much he continues to feed them every day . he doesnt force feed each one the right exact amount. its up to them to learn and grow strong and healthy, because he loves them. he could have cloned the perfect ant that always ate the right amount and was never prone to eating the other ants but he didnt see the joy inthat. he wanted them to decide.

Even considering the story of Adam and Eve seems to be putting the cart in front of the horse.

DNA analysis points strongly to European Neanderthals and humans from Africa cross breeding. This would require either that Adam and Eve be dated very far back, before human mental attributes could reasonably be argued, or that the highly explanatory African origin model for Homo Sapiens Sapiens be rejected.

Also, if Orientals have Java Man ancestors, that raises an even worse time frame problem.

How can we talk about Adam and Eve as if they were real people?

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 47 by kegger]

viper, the main point is that god wanted us to be free willed beings in his image and likeness

Well no. Not according to your holy book. This god character wanted (and still wants) good little obedient robots. He just wasn't smart enough to make them. But allegedly he's gonna have another go after he's killed them all. Bit of a desert spoon really, isn't he.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 20 by Rkrause]

A flaw in a perfect creation?

Mankind with their knowledge of evil created a flaw (sin or evil) in Gods perfect creation.

Surely God created Evil?

After all it was God who created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The tree existed prior to Man's knowledge of Evil, therefore Evil must have existed before Man became aware of it.

God's agent [the serpent] tricked Woman, and subsequently Man into eating the fruit, so God must take responsibility for creating Evil and facilitating the entry of Evil into the world.

If one is free to choose evil, one is also free to choose good. That's what free will means. Therefore, evil is created at the time of choice--and that is the creation of the human, not deity.

Personally, I think the greatest evil that can be imposed upon a person is to remove the ability to choose his or her path in life. Doing that removes the person; we do not, after all, consider that a computer doing what it is programmed to do is 'alive,' or 'real,' do we? It is a thing. A puppet. A tool. An object...but not a person.

You are advocating that God, in order to prove Himself 'good,' turn us into computers incapable of making the wrong choice: removing us from us.

That has got to be one of the biggest logical contradictions I've ever seen.

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 20 by Rkrause]

A flaw in a perfect creation?

Mankind with their knowledge of evil created a flaw (sin or evil) in Gods perfect creation.

Surely God created Evil?

After all it was God who created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The tree existed prior to Man's knowledge of Evil, therefore Evil must have existed before Man became aware of it.

God's agent [the serpent] tricked Woman, and subsequently Man into eating the fruit, so God must take responsibility for creating Evil and facilitating the entry of Evil into the world.

If one is free to choose evil, one is also free to choose good. That's what free will means. Therefore, evil is created at the time of choice--and that is the creation of the human, not deity.

Personally, I think the greatest evil that can be imposed upon a person is to remove the ability to choose his or her path in life. Doing that removes the person; we do not, after all, consider that a computer doing what it is programmed to do is 'alive,' or 'real,' do we? It is a thing. A puppet. A tool. An object...but not a person.

You are advocating that God, in order to prove Himself 'good,' turn us into computers incapable of making the wrong choice: removing us from us.

That has got to be one of the biggest logical contradictions I've ever seen.

Well allegedly that is his plan should you make it to his glorious heaven for automatons.
And the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil had no fruit, because there was no evil, now there's a twist to an already very funny story.

[dianaiad]

Well allegedly that is his plan should you make it to his glorious heaven for automatons.

IS it?

Would you care to show me, in scriptures or doctrine or anywhere else, where free will is removed from us in heaven?

I believe that the idea is that one reaches heaven because one chooses good; one does not choose good because one reaches heaven.

And the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil had no fruit, because there was no evil, now there's a twist to an already very funny story.

wait...what? Would you care to dumb that down for me? Translate it into..oh, I dunno, "English teacher?"

[southern cross]

Well allegedly that is his plan should you make it to his glorious heaven for automatons.

IS it?

Would you care to show me, in scriptures or doctrine or anywhere else, where free will is removed from us in heaven?

I believe that the idea is that one reaches heaven because one chooses good; one does not choose good because one reaches heaven.

And the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil had no fruit, because there was no evil, now there's a twist to an already very funny story.

wait...what? Would you care to dumb that down for me? Translate it into..oh, I dunno, "English teacher?"

I'll make it as simple as I can.
Free will is the reason for sin. In heaven you are sinless.
FW=S
H=-S
H=-FW
OK?
Evil only exist at the time it happens. Hence there could be no KNOWLEDGE of good and evil in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, ergo no fruit. Big woops by this all knowing god thingy.

[dianaiad]

Well allegedly that is his plan should you make it to his glorious heaven for automatons.

IS it?

Would you care to show me, in scriptures or doctrine or anywhere else, where free will is removed from us in heaven?

I believe that the idea is that one reaches heaven because one chooses good; one does not choose good because one reaches heaven.

And the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil had no fruit, because there was no evil, now there's a twist to an already very funny story.

wait...what? Would you care to dumb that down for me? Translate it into..oh, I dunno, "English teacher?"

I'll make it as simple as I can.

I thank you.

Free will is the reason for sin.

First problem. Free will is not the reason for sin. That sounds like sin was invented as an object in order to provide choice (free will). Choice is simply choice. What makes one choice a 'sin' is the motive behind making it. Just as a (perhaps minor) quibble.

In heaven you are sinless.

OK. Again, simplistic, but I'll go with that.

FW=S
H=-S
H=-FW
OK?

No.

FW=/=sin. FW = the ability to choose, but NOT the requirement to choose, sin. Therefor, FW =/= sin, because it is quite possible (and in fact, is the optimum result) to choose NOT to sin.

Evil only exist at the time it happens.

The actual choice does, that's true.

Hence there could be no KNOWLEDGE of good and evil in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, ergo no fruit. Big woops by this all knowing god thingy.

One cannot sin if one does not know, BEFORE HAND, that one IS about to sin. One has to have a fair idea of the consequences of one's actions in order to be held accountable for them, wouldn't you say?

Shoot, we find that even in faulty human justice: for instance, taking your gun from the closet and shooting someone may well be a sin....and then again, it might be an act of selfless heroism, depending on the circumstances; you might get the death penalty--or you might get a parade.

The man is just as dead, either way, and dead by the same action, either way; the DIFFERENCE is YOUR motive. The New Testament talks about that difference. It's encoded in our justice system....

AND IT REQUIRES KNOWLEDGE BEFORE THE ACT.

So your claim that 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil' has no fruit because evil doesn't exist until it exists....bogus.

The KNOWLEDGE of right and wrong exists independent of the actual choices.

Care to try again?

[Rkrause]

[Replying to post 20 by Rkrause]

A flaw in a perfect creation?

Mankind with their knowledge of evil created a flaw (sin or evil) in Gods perfect creation.

Surely God created Evil?

After all it was God who created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The tree existed prior to Man's knowledge of Evil, therefore Evil must have existed before Man became aware of it.

God's agent [the serpent] tricked Woman, and subsequently Man into eating the fruit, so God must take responsibility for creating Evil and facilitating the entry of Evil into the world.

Yes evil existed before God created the Tree of the knowldge of Good and Evil, just as imperfection existed before perfection. Dark existed before light etc...

The difference is that God didn't create imperfection only humans are willing to do that through our knowledge of evil. God won't create imperfection nor did He.

[Goat]

God created us knowing that we would sin.

When He gave us the ability to make decisions, He opened up the potential for sin, but didn't create sin. When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought sin into the world.

There's a lot of literature on this, and I wouldn't expect the people on a forum like this to have the most insightful comments. But think about this: sin only exists through an agent. It isn't something that is "created." It's something that we do.

So , since God is so perfect, why did he create us so we would sin?

Being able to make decisions doesn't mean we have the potential for sin. That claim is just plain silly.

I am told being able to sin is because of 'Free Will.' WHy did God create free will?>