Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

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Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote: There are no (Christians present) in actual point of fact. None that will support the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a point of "logic, reason and critical thinking." Unless there happens to be a Christian newbe present that I am unaware of who wishes to tackle the job. None of the Christian regulars here will defend the story of the resurrection beyond a "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," defense.
SelectThis! wrote:
Not so. None is all. I would defend it gladly. Logic and reason reveals what is most evident and what the Bible reveals is absolutely most evident. Start the thread up if you dare. Bring your best arguments.

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Post #441

Post by assisigirl »

There is life in this thread yet, and do not leave. You seem to be gathering disciples and mithrae thinks I am vague and flaky. What do I believe?

Life was absolute ' **** ' for 'joe soap' in 1st Century Judea. Living in society today is not much better. I believe that we are 'headless chickens' where our last action dictates our next. This is not 'flaky' but rather a prediction of disaster. Jesus felt the same way.

Weep not for me but for yourselves and for your children.

I would give our man made world 3 out of 10 where 10 is what we started with and 3 is what we have not got round to ruining yet. There is nothing 'flaky' in this, just simple objective observance. It will take a miracle like the wisdom of the Jesus doctrines to bail us out of this one and I am not holding my breath. Meanwhile we hover around the semantics of a NT narrative as if it has theological significance of some sort. It is a yarn. Resurrection as a phenomena can with just a little bit of consideration be seen to be a real and naturally occouring event.

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Post #442

Post by Clownboat »

assisigirl wrote: There is life in this thread yet, and do not leave. You seem to be gathering disciples and mithrae thinks I am vague and flaky. What do I believe?

Life was absolute ' **** ' for 'joe soap' in 1st Century Judea. Living in society today is not much better. I believe that we are 'headless chickens' where our last action dictates our next. This is not 'flaky' but rather a prediction of disaster. Jesus felt the same way.

Weep not for me but for yourselves and for your children.

I would give our man made world 3 out of 10 where 10 is what we started with and 3 is what we have not got round to ruining yet. There is nothing 'flaky' in this, just simple objective observance. It will take a miracle like the wisdom of the Jesus doctrines to bail us out of this one and I am not holding my breath. Meanwhile we hover around the semantics of a NT narrative as if it has theological significance of some sort. It is a yarn. Resurrection as a phenomena can with just a little bit of consideration be seen to be a real and naturally occouring event.
We get it. YOU find the Bible special for some reason. To each their own.

Here is what I found special just a couple posts up:
"What I am now suggesting to YOU in return for your words of wisdom to me, is that instead of blithely swallowing down someone else's empty promises and ancient drivel, you might actually try and THINK FOR YOURSELF, and begin to form your own opinions based on your own actual experiences in THIS WORLD rather than taking a promissory note of an imaginary existence based on the ruminations of ancient superstitious people."

Amazing words!
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #443

Post by assisigirl »

:yapyap:;


You are like a child in the park, watching TOTN juggle variables that he pulled from the sky, You are easily amused in your nautical circusy world. Where did he get this from

TOTN:.......taking a promissory note of an imaginary existence based on the ruminations of ancient superstitious people."


And you thought it was good, you clown, you!

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Post #444

Post by Student »

Danmark wrote:
Student wrote: There are several scholarly works* charting the gradual change in meaning of martus from witness to martyr, however most [if not all] are not available in electronic format. Consequently I would have to retrieve the documents, translate them [many of the most influential are only in print in German] and then transcribe their contents [ocr only goes so far!]. Given that my previous post had zero impact on Mithraes views [in common with practically all our previous encounters] I viewed the whole exercise as a monumental waste of time, so it was a case of bugger that for a game of cowboys.

... [citations redacted]....
Trites is particularly helpful as she charts [using diachronistic semantics] the semantic change over five stages whereby the word came to mean martyr by the end of the second century:
1. Originally, meant a witness in a court of law with no expectation of death.
2. Then it came to mean a man who testified to his faith in a lawcourt and suffered death as the penalty for his witness.
3. Next, death is regarded as part of the witness.

4. becomes equivalent to martyr. Here the idea of death is uppermost, though the idea of witness is not entirely lacking.
5. The idea of witness disappears, and the words , , and are used absolutely to refer to martyrdom.
[emphasis applied]
Thank you. That certainly makes sense to me etymologically.

I don't blame you for not wanting to go thru the hassle you describe for sources not available electronically. As you say, OCR is problematic enough, let alone what would be likely to happen in German. :) Particularly if the font is the Blackletter German publishers favored even as late as the 20th Century. As Norwegian Americans say, "Uff da!"

I have a remaining question. Do we have any idea when Justin acquired the 'Martyr' surname?
Im sorry Danmark, it was remiss of me not to answer your question [my emphasis].

By the time The Martyrdom of Polycarp was written, c. 150 CE. to 160 CE, it was common, in Christian writings, to use , martus and its cognates to refer to martyrdom. The transformation from witness to martyr was [for many Christians] nearing completion.

Consequently, as Justin was put to death some time between 161CE. and 168CE. [a median date of c.165CE is commonly accepted] it would be natural for many Christians, reading an account of his trial and execution, to understand as an honorific specifically meaning martyr rather than just witness. [martyr was never considered Justins surname]

However, bearing in mind that diachronistic semantic change does not necessitate the obsolescence of the earlier meaning, to a non-Christian, continued, certainly for as long as they remained pagan, to mean witness.

Furthermore, even in Christian circles it was not uncommon to use of those who had borne witness short of death.

For example, Even in the second half of the second century the title could be given to confessors at Lyons and Vienne, though it is significant that they disclaimed it as due only to the Lord (Apoc. i 5) and to those who had died for Him. By that time the technical sense had nearly established itself (see Lightfoots note on Clem. l.c., and Bensons Cyprian, p. 90 f.); but in the NT. this stage had not been reached, though the course of events was leading up to it (H. B. Swete, The Apocalypse of St. John [London, 1906], p. 35.)

Lightfoot, adds the caveat,: Still even at this late date [Fourth Century CE] they [ and its cognates] continued to be used simultaneously of other testimony borne to the Gospel short of death: e.g. by Hegesippus, Eusebius H. E. III. 20, 32, by Apollonius ib. V. 18 (several times), and in a document quoted by Serapion ib. V. 19. (The Apostolic Fathers,[Greek text], Part I, ii, 26. J. B. Lightfoot, London, 1889)

So, it might be reasonable to conclude that initially, many, but not all Christians would understand Justins honorific, solely in the sense of martyr. Over time, as the number of Christians as a proportion of the population grew, so this became the understanding of the overwhelming majority.

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Post #445

Post by Student »

Mithrae wrote:
Student wrote:Given that my previous post had zero impact on Mithraes views [in common with practically all our previous encounters] I viewed the whole exercise as a monumental waste of time, so it was a case of bugger that for a game of cowboys.
Before your post, in this very thread I had already commented on two examples in which your views had inclined me towards views closer to your own: The possible wholesale forgery of the TF, and the possibility that Jesus' body was never entombed by his supporters. There are also other things we've discussed on which your arguments have not persuaded me, such as Josephus' reference to the death of James, and a mid-2nd century date for gJohn. I have rarely (if ever) found any problems with your facts, but we often disagree significantly on interpretation of the data, with you generally favouring the non-traditional and later-dating views.

My reason for maintaining that Clement was referring to Peter and Paul's deaths was not because your comments had "zero impact," though I'll acknowledge that I often don't simply take others' word for it when they make a claim, even if they are better educated than I. (In fact though the point is now moot, my very first question/concern - Did martus come to mean dying for one's faith for Greek speakers generally, or was it merely a Christian euphemism - still remains unanswered.) But my reason for maintaining that Clement was referring to Peter and Paul's deaths was because quite apart from the word you disputed the original and the alternative translations I checked still clearly said that these "pillars of the Church were persecuted, and contended even unto death," as I posted and referenced.

You then disputed the reliability of all translations from before the late 19th century. Fair enough. However the groundless insults did not add any weight to your views.

But as I say, the point is entirely moot. With or without Clement, Tired does not believe that John's appendix's comment about Peter being carried to a death by which he would glorify God is a reference to martyrdom.
I neither took offence at your post nor intended to insult - I was simply stating what I perceived to be the obvious " that you invariably disregard whatever I post, and, that as a consequence any further efforts on my part would be a waste of time. I hadnt realised you were such a sensitive soul Mithrae " I have no desire to offend your sensibilities!

As for your unanswered question
Did martus come to mean dying for one's faith for Greek speakers generally, or was it merely a Christian euphemism
I hope that my recent reply to Danmark provides an adequate response.

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Post #446

Post by Clownboat »

assisigirl wrote: :yapyap:;


You are like a child in the park, watching TOTN juggle variables that he pulled from the sky, You are easily amused in your nautical circusy world. Where did he get this from

TOTN:.......taking a promissory note of an imaginary existence based on the ruminations of ancient superstitious people."


And you thought it was good, you clown, you!

What can I say, I'm a fan of reason, logic and critical thinking, or "juggling" if that is what you call it.

By all means, continue to hold on to your superstitions, but don't berate me and call me a child if I want to hold on to reason, logic and critical thinking.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #447

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

assisigirl wrote: There is life in this thread yet, and do not leave. You seem to be gathering disciples and mithrae thinks I am vague and flaky. What do I believe?

Life was absolute ' **** ' for 'joe soap' in 1st Century Judea. Living in society today is not much better. I believe that we are 'headless chickens' where our last action dictates our next. This is not 'flaky' but rather a prediction of disaster. Jesus felt the same way.

Weep not for me but for yourselves and for your children.
Oh holy crap! You are far too pampered if you really think life in modern America is not much of an improvement over life in ancient Judea. I will agree with you that we do not manage our resources wisely. But that is a byproduct of democracy and capitalism, where each generation seeks to maximize it's own wealth without regard for future generations. And so we often squander resources which are going to become increasingly precious as the human race increases from the current 7 billion upwards towards 20 billion, at current reproduction rates, by the end of this century. It certainly is easy to find a premonition of disaster in a number that large. Being an American citizen in the early 21st century may just be as good as it gets. Lucky you.
assisigirl wrote: I would give our man made world 3 out of 10 where 10 is what we started with and 3 is what we have not got round to ruining yet. There is nothing 'flaky' in this, just simple objective observance. It will take a miracle like the wisdom of the Jesus doctrines to bail us out of this one and I am not holding my breath. Meanwhile we hover around the semantics of a NT narrative as if it has theological significance of some sort. It is a yarn. Resurrection as a phenomena can with just a little bit of consideration be seen to be a real and naturally occouring event.
I mentioned earlier that I was a member of the Sierra Club for many years and I have been a conservationist for most of my life, so I am not resistant to what you are saying here. We do very often pave paradise to put up a parking lot. But bodies need to be housed and clothed, and mouth's need to be fed. Do you really think that there was a perfect idyllic time, somewhere in the past? If you are talking of returning to simpler time where families were self sufficient and lived off of the land, you need to understand that there just isn't that much land. Not to support 20 billion. It's going to take high technology to support that many people. And an incredibly complex infrastructure. Any major disruption of that infrastructure will mean death and disaster for countless millions. And that's known as natural selection.
assisigirl wrote: You are like a child in the park, watching TOTN juggle variables that he pulled from the sky, You are easily amused in your nautical circusy world. Where did he get this from.


I realize that this was intended for Clownboat, but if you are not entertained and amused by all of this then you are missing the point. You claim there is life in this thread yet, so you seem to be entertained, whether you understand it or not.

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Post #448

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Clownboat wrote: Here is what I found special just a couple posts up:
"What I am now suggesting to YOU in return for your words of wisdom to me, is that instead of blithely swallowing down someone else's empty promises and ancient drivel, you might actually try and THINK FOR YOURSELF, and begin to form your own opinions based on your own actual experiences in THIS WORLD rather than taking a promissory note of an imaginary existence based on the ruminations of ancient superstitious people."

Amazing words!
Thanks Clownboat. It is a rather nice turn of phrase, isn't it! Don't be surprised if you see me use it again at some point. You old nautical clown you.

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Post #449

Post by historia »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Well it's true I suppose. You never mentioned heaven, even though that message is implicit in the Gospels.
Actually, the gospels have very little to say about heaven, as such. They (and Jesus) are all about life on earth, in this age and in the age to come -- "your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven," and all that.

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Post #450

Post by assisigirl »

Thank you historia.

All is fair 'in love and war' TOTN, Clownboat O:)



TOTN enquires:Do you really think that there was a perfect idyllic time, somewhere in the past?


assisigirl: Our very distant past was a primal oblivion that humans seem to, in some way remember. It was an animalistic oblivion and it is gone forever. I am a now person and the teachings attributed to Jesus are as relevant now as when they were first written.
I detect connecting threads between your 'no nonsense' approach and my own 'wishfulness'. TOTN

Lets say that Jesus has a message that is green.
Lets say that Jesus is against waste and consumerism.
Lets say that Jesus wants people to empower themselves.
Lets say that Jesus is pro democracy and socialism.
Lets say that Jesus wants a peaceful world.
Lets say that Jesus wants the future of mankind to be wonderful.
Lets say that Jesus explains this concept to us and leaves it as a legacy for all, akin to Buddhism.
We can then consider that Jesus is still with us as we aspire towards 'godliness'
We are allowed to have heroes. TOTN, you would probably run with this 'cult'.

Finally TOTN: There was no perfect past, TOTN, but there was a time when we engaged in life fully. Now we feel like we need a God to bail us out of an alzheimer's nightmare.

Man played with Yahweh in an Eden which was an 'earthly ' garden,ie God was of the earth. Genesis tells us in no uncertain terms that we have been turfed out of this existence forever. Jesus tells us that if we apply an absolute principle of 'human love' to our existence then we can indeed transcend mortality and become immortal and 'Godlike' within the story of our species. We will have used the knowledge of good to become exactly what the Eden legend and the serpent said we would become, ie like God. A Jedi, superior overseer of the world and all its contents. Your immortality is not for you to enjoy, it is something that you make a contribution towards which lasts for as long as you would care for it to last. Does anybody else get this?

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