Let's say that a God does exist

[Zetesis Apistia]

This is not an argument for the existence of God. This is not a trick to say gotcha. Just curious as to your response. No levity please. Here is the scenario......

You die and all of the sudden you find your self still consciously aware in a spiritual dimension that is foreign to the world in which we live. You are suddenly apprehended by an angelic host and carted off to a courtroom of sorts....You are then seated before a judge (God). God then asks you to plead your case before he makes his decision on your eternal destiny. What would be your response?

[Zetesis Apistia]

This stands out, a lot.

Suppose a guy wants to get a virgin in bed but shes resistant. He proceeds to get her drunk and all of the sudden her inhibitions are removed and she becomes a sex crazed lunatic. The next morning she awakes and is upset with herself because of her actions.

1) Did he force her to sleep with him?
2) How then did he get her to do something that she didn't want to do?

1) Yes.
2) By getting her drunk obviously.

Anything but putting the whole blame solely on the guy is victim blaming. It's the kind of thinking that enable rapists.

My point was that she was controlled thru passion and not the will since she was consenting. I am not justifying his actions any more than I would justify satans when he does the same.

Your point may well be fine but the example chosen to illustrate your point isn't. Getting someone drunk to the point they agree to sex where previously they were resistant is not consenting.

It was an example of manipulation thru passion where the will is bypassed. Try to stay on topic here.

[PghPanther]

My response would be...........why did you decide to provide your revelation through verbal story telling and written word by the hands of humans during a period where the process of information transfer, preservation, translation and interpretation resulted in multiple claimed paths of truths in conflict with each other.....and if Christ was your son then why the 1000s of interpretations of that truth so that each claimed the pathway to salvation often at the exclusion and condemnation of all other doxologies?

To what obligation do I owe an allegiance to such a convoluted process?

Why didn't you provide your revelation at a time when recorded history was efficiently documented and digitalized to share your truth with all of humanity?

It still would be a choice of free will by faith from each of us (as I've been told how you want it) but at least we'd have the right revelation to decide whether to follow you or not.........

Answer that God.............

[olavisjo]

.

Answer that God.............

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�
Matthew 25:31-46 NIV

Why didn't you provide your revelation at a time when recorded history was efficiently documented and digitized to share your truth with all of humanity?

He did.

[Zetesis Apistia]

My response would be...........why did you decide to provide your revelation through verbal story telling and written word by the hands of humans during a period where the process of information transfer, preservation, translation and interpretation resulted in multiple claimed paths of truths in conflict with each other.....and if Christ was your son then why the 1000s of interpretations of that truth so that each claimed the pathway to salvation often at the exclusion and condemnation of all other doxologies?

To what obligation do I owe an allegiance to such a convoluted process?

Why didn't you provide your revelation at a time when recorded history was efficiently documented and digitalized to share your truth with all of humanity?

It still would be a choice of free will by faith from each of us (as I've been told how you want it) but at least we'd have the right revelation to decide whether to follow you or not.........

Answer that God.............

Jesus had eye witnesses that didn't believe and they killed him anyway. So I doubt that better evidence would change anything.

[kayky]

I have not read this thread, but the OP reminded me of an article I once read. People who were over 100 years old were being interviewed. One of them was an atheist. He was asked, "What if, when you die, you do find yourself standing before God? How will you respond?"

He replied, "Oops..."

I always thought that was so funny!

[Peter]

This is not an argument for the existence of God. This is not a trick to say gotcha. Just curious as to your response. No levity please. Here is the scenario......

You die and all of the sudden you find your self still consciously aware in a spiritual dimension that is foreign to the world in which we live. You are suddenly apprehended by an angelic host and carted off to a courtroom of sorts....You are then seated before a judge (God). God then asks you to plead your case before he makes his decision on your eternal destiny. What would be your response?

My answer would depend on which god I found myself before because there are thousands.
Can I make up my own god like everyone else?

[PghPanther]

.

Answer that God.............

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�
Matthew 25:31-46 NIV

Why didn't you provide your revelation at a time when recorded history was efficiently documented and digitized to share your truth with all of humanity?

He did.

So you use the bible to answer me claiming its Gods word???

The very thing I'm critical to begin with..............have you ever studied biblical construction of the canon?

Are you aware of the indexical and deictic elements with in the text and how incomplete it is..........especially with English translation of the bible?

You claim truth without being aware of the challenges within the manuscripts you quote..........

[PghPanther]

[Replying to post 114 by Zetesis Apistia]

Eyewitnesses???

Under what evidence??

Decades of believer's embellished stories never to be written down until later in the next century in another country in another language???

and no copies of them in original form or authors??

and they claim to have eyewitness?

You have no idea how weak on convoluted the process of information is with the claims of biblical manuscripts.......

[olavisjo]

The very thing I'm critical to begin with..............have you ever studied biblical construction of the canon?

Are you aware of the indexical and deictic elements with in the text and how incomplete it is..........especially with English translation of the bible?

You claim truth without being aware of the challenges within the manuscripts you quote..........

Which part of ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ do you disagree with?

Do you also disagree with 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'?

[PghPanther]

The very thing I'm critical to begin with..............have you ever studied biblical construction of the canon?

Are you aware of the indexical and deictic elements with in the text and how incomplete it is..........especially with English translation of the bible?

You claim truth without being aware of the challenges within the manuscripts you quote..........

Which part of ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ do you disagree with?

Do you also disagree with 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'?

Good questions........even the most conservative evangelical scholars know that any quotes by Jesus.....particularly those in the gospel of John, are at best paraphrased if not made up as a church confession such as in the gospel writers of John. You realize we have no existing original gospel manuscripts?.......and that they are not authored?...........the names given to the gospels come from the 2nd century early church by Ignacio’s (sp?) in an attempt to match them to something that "fits" what they thought of their personality traits....................you do realize that the gospel of John is now acknowledge to be written by multiple authors of the early Johianne church and that all "I" statements claimed to be stated by Jesus are not quotes at all….. but are confessions by the writers of what they believed Christ did represent to their faith...."I" in the sense that it is stated in John is a deictic phrasing of the first person of Christ that is representing "we" as in the believers professing church confession....all scholars and most clergy that study in seminary know of this from the original Greek but do not share this information with their congregation for obvious reasons.........More passionate born again Christians desiring to be ordained in their calling have left the seminary or became agnostic/atheist from the results of learning the history and truth behind scriptural scholarship never matched up to what they were told and believed outside of that scholarship.

If you take your current day English translation of your bible as the "word of God" you are claiming a revelation of faith that is not seeded within the reality of the dubious past of historical manuscripts....it is as presupposed truth without critical analysis to see if it merits such a commitment to those manuscripts……….it is worship of the bible and not God.

This is what I would challenge God if I met him face to face…….why did God use such a convoluted process to provide a revelation? That is what I would want God to answer………..(of course after 44 yrs as a born again Christian and now an atheist I give no credence to such a question but that was the one asked that started this thread)

BTW......Love your neighbor as yourself is a fine if your neighbor is not a sociopath....because in that case they would abuse your kindness, use you up and not feel a sense of guilt about it in any manner.............science has now found a genetic marker in humans that finds the potential of 3% of humans to have that personality trait........of course ancient scriptures and their stories know none of this.....

So that commandment knowing what we know today should be stated.

"Love your neighbor as yourself, only if they demonstrate empathy to comprehend your actions."

Biblical presupposed claimed truth has been convoluted over history to begin with but even if it wasn’t it is becoming more and more irrelevant to what science has revealed about the nature of reality today.

We would be best as a species to attribute the bible in the same manner we do Aesop’s fables or Greek mythological stories……….having some intrinsic value but not to be taken as literal truth.