Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity?

[Moses Yoder]

I don't normally copy and paste an article but this is great stuff. At the end I have a question.

The morning after Chick-fil-A day
AUGUST 2, 2012 BY MIKE PATZ 1 COMMENT

Its the morning after the Chick-fil-A drama and Im still chewing.

I remember the day I was sitting next to an incredibly nice gay guy, enjoying a really good conversation when he dropped the ultimate conversation-killer.

What do you do for a living?

I hate that question. I hate that question because people cant help but size you up when they hear the answer. I hate that question because were already prone to think of ourselves as human doings instead of human beings. I hate that question because of what it does to people when they find out what I do.

Ive often tried to find ways around the question. Ive told people I work with non-profit organizations (this is true). Ive told people that I write (this is true). Ive even told people that I am a spiritual guru that assists people in opening their third eye (I really like this one). For whatever reason, on that day, I just cut to the chase. I work as a pastor of a church.

Everything changed. His next words went something like this:

Listen, Im gay and Im content with who I am. Im sure you are going to say that I was not born this way, and I wont argue the point. For a significant part of my childhood I was violated by a neighbor and then an uncle. Did that play a role in my sexual orientation? Possibly. I also know many people that had a trouble-free childhood and they turned out very happily gay. Regardless of how it occurred, this is who I am now and I make no apologies for the man I have become. If God has a problem with a man who tries to be true to himself, then I have a problem with a God that allows these kinds of things to happen to kids like me in the first place.

I kept thinking how much easier it would have been if I said I was a writer.


Fortunately, Jesus has a way of showing up in the middle of conversations just like these, and on that day He did not disappoint. My friend shared his heart, and I shared mine. Ive never seen people change via argument, which is why I prefer to help people taste and see that the Lord is good.

This is where Christians tend to blow it.

They taste really bad. They serve up some really Biblical truth in some really nauseating ways. They major on minors and minor on majors. They tend to be extremely unaware of their pride, and pride is like bad breath " everybody knows you have it, except for you. Its always easy to scream the loudest about sins you do not personally struggle with.

So why are we yelling?

Im still not sure why Christians are so militant in their opposition of homosexual immorality while they seem to go so mild with their opposition of heterosexual immorality. I hear the concern about homosexuality and the catch phrase is often family values: Imagine how much it will mess up a child who is being raised by two women, the reasoning goes. A kid needs both a father and a mother, we say. Yet the gays I speak with often wonder how the church can talk about family values when 50-60% of Christian couples divorce. Talk about family values. So a community of people that do not stay married is trying to talk to us about marital morality. How ironic.

In light of the fact that Christians have just as much pre-marital sex and watch just as much porn and divorce just as frequently why arent we more embarrassed to speak out on the issue of homosexual sin? Good question.

One guy said, Its funny how you can claim the grace of God to cover heterosexual sin while saying that homosexual sin is beyond the reach of Gods grace.

That brings me to all the Chick"fil-A drama.

I get why Chick-fil-A day looked so annoying to so many people yesterday. I understand why people have planned a kiss-in this Friday. And I can see why people shake their heads when they read yet another homophobic Facebook post.

Church people ask, why wont our culture repent? My answer: because repentance is a learned behavior. Someone has to model it. I tell parents that its silly to expect a child to repent when they have never seen a parent repent. And its futile to wait for a culture to repent when a culture has never seen the Church repent.

Is the real problem with our culture the unrepentant gay community? No. Its an unrepentant Church.

I am so sorry today for all the hatred that Christians have dished out toward gays. I am so sorry for all of the homophobic sarcasm that has come from the pulpits of Christian ministers. I am so sorry for the way we pick and choose which sins to condemn. I am so sorry that we have claimed to follow Jesus while we neglected widows and orphans, and then engaged in gossip and gluttony. I am so sorry that we have provided such a bad example for the rest of society to follow. Im embarrassed, Im ashamed, and I repent. Im serious. I repent.

Yet Im also concerned that when our culture most needs to hear truth, Christians dont know how to tell it.

Weve come to a dangerous moment in culture, and Christians are ill-equipped to handle it. We have reached the point where disagreement is now seen as hatred. I read an article today where a woman was appealing to Christians to recognize their hateful crimes against the homosexual community. I nodded in agreement, but decided to keep reading to see how she itemized these crimes. Paragraph after paragraph described the hurt and rejection resulting from these offenses, but it took a while to get to the actual crime: Christians claim that homosexuality is a sin. I was stunned. Disagreement was equated with hate.

Christians have a substantial challenge on their hands because every generation and every culture is going to disagree with Gods truth at some point. How interesting that our USAmerican culture considers Christianity to be closed-minded on the issue of sexual morality, while the majority of world religions are in agreement in opposition to the USA position on sexuality. Is USA culture not closed-minded for claiming that all these other religions are wrong? Is it not hypocrisy to say that we will be tolerant with everybody " except the people we consider intolerant. Closed-mindedness is not just a religious thing, its a human thing.

If ever Christians needed some good breath, it is now.

Because we have to kiss this world with the truth of God.

The problem is, no matter how good your kiss, your breath can ruin the whole experience. And no matter how much truth we bring, if it does not drip with grace and humility, it always falls flat.

Im not asking Christians to stop telling the truth, Im asking them to brush their teeth.

What does that look like? The apostle Paul said to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy towards all people. (Titus 3:2)

Can you imagine what would happen if an entire chunk of Christians decided to embrace the Titus 3:2 approach? Will people be staging protests and kiss-ins to protest Chick-fil-A? Maybe. But the way of Jesus is to speak evil of no one. Has Chick-fil-A been bullied? Yes. But the kingdom of Jesus response is to avoid quarreling. Is there more drama to come as our culture becomes increasingly polarized? Of course. But if God is our Father, then we have to start showing the family resemblance, being gentle and showing perfect courtesy. This should have an effect on the way we post our thoughts on Facebook. Or talk to angry people at work. Or wait in line at Chick-fil-A.

You see, we cant shrink back on truth-telling or we dishonor the very Gospel. But when we bring the truth of Jesus we have to do it in the Spirit of Jesus.

Or stop being surprised when our culture doesnt want a kiss.

Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity? If not, why do Christians hate gay people so much? If the two are equally bad, why do so many Christians who would never be gay cheat on their wife?

[KCKID]

Though some dispute it, I believe Romans 1:27 "mentions" homosexual sex.

Yes, it does. But do you know the context of this scripture? Evidently, not too many Christians do and those that do choose to ignore the context because they want it to fit their anti-gay stance. The text you mention is referencing idol worship/temple prostitution and its associated practices. Are you aware of what those practices entailed? Paul's tights are in a twist because pagan worship practices are being incorporated into the early Christian Church. Perhaps you might care to read up on the pagan worship practices of Paul's day. Whether homosexuality per se is 'a sin' is NOT addressed in this particular scripture.

In addition, the only sexual relationships condoned in the NT are those between the opposite sex.

Really? Where are those scriptures that reference/condone heterosexual sexual relationships? They appear to have been too coy in those days to even acknowledge that people were actually having sex.

Even if Paul is primarily talking about idol worship, and the related pagan practices, this does not take away from the fact that he identified homosexual sex in his prohibition of the conduct.

Of course it does. Idol worship is the issue here. Not homosexuality per se, nor heterosexuality per se since heterosexual pagan fertility rituals were also a part of idol worship. How would Paul even know that someone is having homosexual (or heterosexual) sex unless it's being performed in public? Not unless he shares their private abode which, of course, he doesn't. How would you or I know what goes on in private unless we're told? There's a whole lot of 'assuming' going on within Christianity. Our friend, 99percentatheism, for instance, ASSUMES what goes on in someone's bedroom and even condemns them for what he assumes. And, these assumptions lead him to believe that one's private intimacy is tearing the Christian Church apart no less! How the heck can that happen?

Anyway, let's cut to the chase here. I'm really not too interested in what Paul may or may not disapprove of. Show me where Jesus has a gripe against homosexuality then perhaps we'll have a case to consider.

Cutting to the chase, "sin" is the issue not homosexual conduct "per-se". The topic here however is homosexual sex based on the original posting.

Actually, this thread is a combination of both homosexuality and heterosexual infidelity ...the latter of which barely rates a mention within Christian circles. Perhaps this could be because too many of those within the church are doing this or they are otherwise oblivious to this "sin" because the topic of homosexuality overshadows it. Either way, even illicit heterosexual sex seems preferable to homosexual sex in the mind of the average Christian.

Homosexual sex is sin,

It may well be (most everything else we do as human beings is a sin) but, as mentioned previously, the biblical references to homosexuality refer to the practices of temple prostitution and idolatry. Remember the difference between 'private' and 'public'?

and Jesus therefore has a "gripe" with it on that basis.

But, you're just assuming again.

Scripture teaches that Jesus came to earth to save "sinners", or to put another way, give mankind an opportunity to be reconciled back to God. Cutting to the chase...

Okay. So if we're all "sinners" for whom Jesus came to save, what then gives such as yourself the authority to highlight the "sins" of others while being a "sinner" of equal value yourself?

[Dantalion]

[Replying to post 45 by noshameinChrist]

And what was it Jesus said about homosexuality?

If you are asking whether Jesus said anything directly about homosexuality, no he did not. He also never said anything about Beastiality, yet it is a sin. Both are sins based on teaching originally found in the Old Testament.

So is eating shellfish then and wearing a linen/wool blend, are you serious?

Yeah he's shifting like crazy.
At first, noshameinChrist, when confronted with the other directions in Leviticus, you said you knew the difference between the OT and the NT and you agree with the teaching of Jesus. Fair enough.
But when asked where Jesus made claims about homosexuality, you then shifted back to the OT.
So ehm, you really need to be honest here.
The same text you use to judge gay people with, specifically says wearing mixed fabrics and eating shellfish are forbidden, amongst many other weird or misogynistic things.
So again the question, do you also obey these things ?
If not, why not ?

[McCulloch]

I don't disregard any of Christ's teachings (not sure if this is what you were asking).

Do you allow women to speak in church? Are people who are remarried after divorce treated as adulterers by you?

[McCulloch]

I believe that the relevant issue here is repentance. To a Christian, an unrepentant heterosexual infidelist is as bad as an unrepentant homosexual. And a repentant heterosexual infidelist is as forgiven and accepted as a repentant homosexual.


However, there are not very many unrepentant heterosexual infidelists trying to infiltrate the church and change the churches' doctrine about sexual fidelity.

It is that basic.

I agree.

The missing link is a western world now being run by a psychology and culture that sees the ascribing of guilt to immoral behavior, as being as much of a hate crime as physical violence meted out to someone minding their own business walking down the street in the wrong neighborhood.

We are watching all of the warnings of the Evangelical Church about a permissive and lascivious society come to stark reality in the demands of the gay community.

It is unfortunate that the Evangelical Church at times cannot see the difference between society and the church. In our tolerant and yes, permissive society, we allow free speech, free association and freedom of religion. We have expressed the ideal that no religion should be established by our governments. Our laws and rules are secular, not derived from religious dogma. Outside of your churches, people are free to be idolaters, free to blaspheme, free to dress as we please, free to have adult consensual sex. The various rules that religions have about human behavior apply only to the members of that religion. Don't practice birth control if you are Roman Catholic. Don't eat pork if you are Jewish or Muslim. Don't have homosexual relationships if you are Evangelical. But don't press your religion's rules onto the rest of society.

From my experiences, the "hate" comes mostly from supporters of homosexual sex against those, under the banner of Christianity, who will not condone homosexual sex. Again, this is based on my experiences.

There are 80 countries that continue to consider homosexuality illegal. Five of them carry the death penalty for homosexual activity: Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, the Iranian government has executed more than 4,000 people charged with homosexual acts.

Westboro Baptist Church

The purpose of intercourse is to bring life into the world. If it is done for any other reason than it is for the sole purpose of personal gratification. Those things which are for the purpose of personal gratification are not being done to please God. So regardless if it is adultery, or porn addiction, or alcoholism, drug addiction, or homosexuality, if it is not done for the purpose of raising God up, than it is tearing God down. When we cater to our sins, what ever they are, we are being selfish and God wants that we should be selfless. We are not to live for our ways and our will we are to live for His ways and by the will of His Spirit.

So now that my wife is past menopause and incapable of having children, God wants us to stop having sex. After all, it would be for the sole purpose of personal gratification. Right?

[olavisjo]

.

So now that my wife is past menopause and incapable of having children, God wants us to stop having sex. After all, it would be for the sole purpose of personal gratification. Right?

Sarai was 86 and barren when she gave birth to Ishmael, so there is still hope for the two of you.

[noshameinChrist]

[Replying to post 45 by noshameinChrist]

And what was it Jesus said about homosexuality?

If you are asking whether Jesus said anything directly about homosexuality, no he did not. He also never said anything about Beastiality, yet it is a sin. Both are sins based on teaching originally found in the Old Testament.

So is eating shellfish then and wearing a linen/wool blend, are you serious?

I am very serious about the salvation that God offers through Jesus Christ. I do however realize that people have the right to make their own decisions in this area. As with any choice, good choices lead to good results, and bad choices lead to bad results.

I don't know the purpose of you bringing up "shellfish" and "linen/wool blend", but from a salvation standpoint it is my understanding that the clothes one fabric of clothes one wears or the type of sea creature one eats has no bearing on being saved.

2 John 9 says "whosoever transgress and abides not in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son."

My standard of living derives from the teachings of Christ. This information is found in scripture, specifically the NT. With regard to sexual sins, the NT refers to adultery, fornication, and homosexuality as being contrary to the doctrine of Christ, and thus against the will of God. As I mentioned, Romans 1:27 is one such passage.

[noshameinChrist]

[Replying to post 45 by noshameinChrist]

And what was it Jesus said about homosexuality?

If you are asking whether Jesus said anything directly about homosexuality, no he did not. He also never said anything about Beastiality, yet it is a sin. Both are sins based on teaching originally found in the Old Testament.

But ...didn't you say previously that those sins as found in the OT were/are no longer applicable to Gentiles? Why such confusion ...?

Is that what I said? Please re-read my posts.

[noshameinChrist]

Though some dispute it, I believe Romans 1:27 "mentions" homosexual sex.

Yes, it does. But do you know the context of this scripture? Evidently, not too many Christians do and those that do choose to ignore the context because they want it to fit their anti-gay stance. The text you mention is referencing idol worship/temple prostitution and its associated practices. Are you aware of what those practices entailed? Paul's tights are in a twist because pagan worship practices are being incorporated into the early Christian Church. Perhaps you might care to read up on the pagan worship practices of Paul's day. Whether homosexuality per se is 'a sin' is NOT addressed in this particular scripture.

In addition, the only sexual relationships condoned in the NT are those between the opposite sex.

Really? Where are those scriptures that reference/condone heterosexual sexual relationships? They appear to have been too coy in those days to even acknowledge that people were actually having sex.

Even if Paul is primarily talking about idol worship, and the related pagan practices, this does not take away from the fact that he identified homosexual sex in his prohibition of the conduct.

Of course it does. Idol worship is the issue here. Not homosexuality per se, nor heterosexuality per se since heterosexual pagan fertility rituals were also a part of idol worship. How would Paul even know that someone is having homosexual (or heterosexual) sex unless it's being performed in public? Not unless he shares their private abode which, of course, he doesn't. How would you or I know what goes on in private unless we're told? There's a whole lot of 'assuming' going on within Christianity. Our friend, 99percentatheism, for instance, ASSUMES what goes on in someone's bedroom and even condemns them for what he assumes. And, these assumptions lead him to believe that one's private intimacy is tearing the Christian Church apart no less! How the heck can that happen?

Anyway, let's cut to the chase here. I'm really not too interested in what Paul may or may not disapprove of. Show me where Jesus has a gripe against homosexuality then perhaps we'll have a case to consider.

Cutting to the chase, "sin" is the issue not homosexual conduct "per-se". The topic here however is homosexual sex based on the original posting.

Actually, this thread is a combination of both homosexuality and heterosexual infidelity ...the latter of which barely rates a mention within Christian circles. Perhaps this could be because too many of those within the church are doing this or they are otherwise oblivious to this "sin" because the topic of homosexuality overshadows it. Either way, even illicit heterosexual sex seems preferable to homosexual sex in the mind of the average Christian.

Homosexual sex is sin,

It may well be (most everything else we do as human beings is a sin) but, as mentioned previously, the biblical references to homosexuality refer to the practices of temple prostitution and idolatry. Remember the difference between 'private' and 'public'?

and Jesus therefore has a "gripe" with it on that basis.

But, you're just assuming again.

Scripture teaches that Jesus came to earth to save "sinners", or to put another way, give mankind an opportunity to be reconciled back to God. Cutting to the chase...

Okay. So if we're all "sinners" for whom Jesus came to save, what then gives such as yourself the authority to highlight the "sins" of others while being a "sinner" of equal value yourself?

.

What sin did I "highlight"? All I said was that homosexual sex is a sin on the same basis as adultery and fornication. I responded to the original posting, did I not?

[McCulloch]

So now that my wife is past menopause and incapable of having children, God wants us to stop having sex. After all, it would be for the sole purpose of personal gratification. Right?

Sarai was 86 and barren when she gave birth to Ishmael, so there is still hope for the two of you.

Not since her ovaries were removed surgically after a growth was found. Should we abstain from sex, since it would be for the sole purpose of personal gratification.

[noshameinChrist]

[Replying to post 45 by noshameinChrist]

And what was it Jesus said about homosexuality?

If you are asking whether Jesus said anything directly about homosexuality, no he did not. He also never said anything about Beastiality, yet it is a sin. Both are sins based on teaching originally found in the Old Testament.

So is eating shellfish then and wearing a linen/wool blend, are you serious?

Yeah he's shifting like crazy.
At first, noshameinChrist, when confronted with the other directions in Leviticus, you said you knew the difference between the OT and the NT and you agree with the teaching of Jesus. Fair enough.
But when asked where Jesus made claims about homosexuality, you then shifted back to the OT.
So ehm, you really need to be honest here.
The same text you use to judge gay people with, specifically says wearing mixed fabrics and eating shellfish are forbidden, amongst many other weird or misogynistic things.
So again the question, do you also obey these things ?
If not, why not ?

I don't believe I am "shifting" at all. If you would like to share the OT scriptures you are referring to then maybe I can respond with more clarity. As it stands, based on my knowledge of scripture, NT does not prohibit or otherwise speak against "linen" and "shellfish". However, the doctrine of Christ DOES mention prohibitions against sexual immorality of which adultery, fornication, and homosexuality are a part.

To be pleasing to God a person must be willing to let these things go.