Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity?

[Moses Yoder]

I don't normally copy and paste an article but this is great stuff. At the end I have a question.

The morning after Chick-fil-A day
AUGUST 2, 2012 BY MIKE PATZ 1 COMMENT

Its the morning after the Chick-fil-A drama and Im still chewing.

I remember the day I was sitting next to an incredibly nice gay guy, enjoying a really good conversation when he dropped the ultimate conversation-killer.

What do you do for a living?

I hate that question. I hate that question because people cant help but size you up when they hear the answer. I hate that question because were already prone to think of ourselves as human doings instead of human beings. I hate that question because of what it does to people when they find out what I do.

Ive often tried to find ways around the question. Ive told people I work with non-profit organizations (this is true). Ive told people that I write (this is true). Ive even told people that I am a spiritual guru that assists people in opening their third eye (I really like this one). For whatever reason, on that day, I just cut to the chase. I work as a pastor of a church.

Everything changed. His next words went something like this:

Listen, Im gay and Im content with who I am. Im sure you are going to say that I was not born this way, and I wont argue the point. For a significant part of my childhood I was violated by a neighbor and then an uncle. Did that play a role in my sexual orientation? Possibly. I also know many people that had a trouble-free childhood and they turned out very happily gay. Regardless of how it occurred, this is who I am now and I make no apologies for the man I have become. If God has a problem with a man who tries to be true to himself, then I have a problem with a God that allows these kinds of things to happen to kids like me in the first place.

I kept thinking how much easier it would have been if I said I was a writer.


Fortunately, Jesus has a way of showing up in the middle of conversations just like these, and on that day He did not disappoint. My friend shared his heart, and I shared mine. Ive never seen people change via argument, which is why I prefer to help people taste and see that the Lord is good.

This is where Christians tend to blow it.

They taste really bad. They serve up some really Biblical truth in some really nauseating ways. They major on minors and minor on majors. They tend to be extremely unaware of their pride, and pride is like bad breath " everybody knows you have it, except for you. Its always easy to scream the loudest about sins you do not personally struggle with.

So why are we yelling?

Im still not sure why Christians are so militant in their opposition of homosexual immorality while they seem to go so mild with their opposition of heterosexual immorality. I hear the concern about homosexuality and the catch phrase is often family values: Imagine how much it will mess up a child who is being raised by two women, the reasoning goes. A kid needs both a father and a mother, we say. Yet the gays I speak with often wonder how the church can talk about family values when 50-60% of Christian couples divorce. Talk about family values. So a community of people that do not stay married is trying to talk to us about marital morality. How ironic.

In light of the fact that Christians have just as much pre-marital sex and watch just as much porn and divorce just as frequently why arent we more embarrassed to speak out on the issue of homosexual sin? Good question.

One guy said, Its funny how you can claim the grace of God to cover heterosexual sin while saying that homosexual sin is beyond the reach of Gods grace.

That brings me to all the Chick"fil-A drama.

I get why Chick-fil-A day looked so annoying to so many people yesterday. I understand why people have planned a kiss-in this Friday. And I can see why people shake their heads when they read yet another homophobic Facebook post.

Church people ask, why wont our culture repent? My answer: because repentance is a learned behavior. Someone has to model it. I tell parents that its silly to expect a child to repent when they have never seen a parent repent. And its futile to wait for a culture to repent when a culture has never seen the Church repent.

Is the real problem with our culture the unrepentant gay community? No. Its an unrepentant Church.

I am so sorry today for all the hatred that Christians have dished out toward gays. I am so sorry for all of the homophobic sarcasm that has come from the pulpits of Christian ministers. I am so sorry for the way we pick and choose which sins to condemn. I am so sorry that we have claimed to follow Jesus while we neglected widows and orphans, and then engaged in gossip and gluttony. I am so sorry that we have provided such a bad example for the rest of society to follow. Im embarrassed, Im ashamed, and I repent. Im serious. I repent.

Yet Im also concerned that when our culture most needs to hear truth, Christians dont know how to tell it.

Weve come to a dangerous moment in culture, and Christians are ill-equipped to handle it. We have reached the point where disagreement is now seen as hatred. I read an article today where a woman was appealing to Christians to recognize their hateful crimes against the homosexual community. I nodded in agreement, but decided to keep reading to see how she itemized these crimes. Paragraph after paragraph described the hurt and rejection resulting from these offenses, but it took a while to get to the actual crime: Christians claim that homosexuality is a sin. I was stunned. Disagreement was equated with hate.

Christians have a substantial challenge on their hands because every generation and every culture is going to disagree with Gods truth at some point. How interesting that our USAmerican culture considers Christianity to be closed-minded on the issue of sexual morality, while the majority of world religions are in agreement in opposition to the USA position on sexuality. Is USA culture not closed-minded for claiming that all these other religions are wrong? Is it not hypocrisy to say that we will be tolerant with everybody " except the people we consider intolerant. Closed-mindedness is not just a religious thing, its a human thing.

If ever Christians needed some good breath, it is now.

Because we have to kiss this world with the truth of God.

The problem is, no matter how good your kiss, your breath can ruin the whole experience. And no matter how much truth we bring, if it does not drip with grace and humility, it always falls flat.

Im not asking Christians to stop telling the truth, Im asking them to brush their teeth.

What does that look like? The apostle Paul said to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy towards all people. (Titus 3:2)

Can you imagine what would happen if an entire chunk of Christians decided to embrace the Titus 3:2 approach? Will people be staging protests and kiss-ins to protest Chick-fil-A? Maybe. But the way of Jesus is to speak evil of no one. Has Chick-fil-A been bullied? Yes. But the kingdom of Jesus response is to avoid quarreling. Is there more drama to come as our culture becomes increasingly polarized? Of course. But if God is our Father, then we have to start showing the family resemblance, being gentle and showing perfect courtesy. This should have an effect on the way we post our thoughts on Facebook. Or talk to angry people at work. Or wait in line at Chick-fil-A.

You see, we cant shrink back on truth-telling or we dishonor the very Gospel. But when we bring the truth of Jesus we have to do it in the Spirit of Jesus.

Or stop being surprised when our culture doesnt want a kiss.

Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity? If not, why do Christians hate gay people so much? If the two are equally bad, why do so many Christians who would never be gay cheat on their wife?

[99percentatheism]

Here's my post again

The OT scriptures I refer to, well, basically Leviticus, the same place christian fundies get their gay hatred from.

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).
If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Deuteronomy also has some crazy stuff.

Now then, noshameinchrist, we want to know what Jesus said on homosexuality
(well, we already know, he didn't say anything about it, but we'll give you the chance to show us we're wrong).

Jesus never said a word that we couldn't "hate" homosexuality. Not one word. He said we should love our enemies but not homosexuals. So finally, we have found a behavior and a person that a Christian can hate. Right?

So there. Your attempts at logic back at you.

The absurdity of the attempts to homosexualize the Bible and the Christian Church by things not mentioned is a very weak position. especially when you see homosexuality so condemned in the wrotings that followed the Gospels in the New Testament.

[Dantalion]

Here's my post again

The OT scriptures I refer to, well, basically Leviticus, the same place christian fundies get their gay hatred from.

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).
If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Deuteronomy also has some crazy stuff.

Now then, noshameinchrist, we want to know what Jesus said on homosexuality
(well, we already know, he didn't say anything about it, but we'll give you the chance to show us we're wrong).

Jesus never said a word that we couldn't "hate" homosexuality. Not one word. He said we should love our enemies but not homosexuals. So finally, we have found a behavior and a person that a Christian can hate. Right?

So there. Your attempts at logic back at you.

The absurdity of the attempts to homosexualize the Bible and the Christian Church by things not mentioned is a very weak position. especially when you see homosexuality so condemned in the wrotings that followed the Gospels in the New Testament.

99 please, I'm quoting rules from Leviticus.
I'm very sorry your persecution complex sees this as 'homosexualizing the bible', it's absolutely not intended this way.
Please don't bother people who actually want to debate with your gay obsession.

[Cewakiyelo]

[Replying to post 77 by 99percentatheism]

99percentatheism,

Are you sure you are atheist? With comments like this you are going to make our heavenly Father proud. You point about repentance is right on the mark. Keep up these kinds of posts and you will have to change your name to 50percentagnostic.

[Dantalion]

[Replying to post 77 by 99percentatheism]

99percentatheism,

Are you sure you are atheist? With comments like this you are going to make our heavenly Father proud. You point about repentance is right on the mark. Keep up these kinds of posts and you will have to change your name to 50percentagnostic.

He's not an atheist.
He's atheistic to all notions of gods except one, hence his name.
He also doesn't believe in psychology and hates gays.
In fact, he sees gay promotion in topics not even remotely related to that subject.

[Goat]

Though some dispute it, I believe Romans 1:27 "mentions" homosexual sex. In addition, the only sexual relationships condoned in the NT are those between the opposite sex..

And Romans1:18 says god has already revealed his wrath to those people. What was he doing to them and is he still doing it now?
Who was it in the NT who told the people to refrain from sex with their wives until the end times had come, or something like that? That was a big oops.
Oh and the passage you referenced doesn't prohibit anything it just says your god had punished them for their behaviour.

I honestly don't understand your questions. Refrain from sex with wives in the NT?

Can you clarify?

What about Romans 1:18 and 1:27??

Romans chapter 1 was written to Christians in Rome. Paul seems to be talking to them about God's standard for followers of Him through Jesus Christ. He mentions homosexual conduct among other things that are not consistent with the will of God.

I really am not sure what you are asking, so this is the best I can do for now. I will be happy to try to answer any specific bible question you have (I can only answer based on my knowledge of scripture).

So, you have to resort to quoting Paul. Also, have you read and examined those passages in context, including cultural context?

[noshameinChrist]

Though some dispute it, I believe Romans 1:27 "mentions" homosexual sex. In addition, the only sexual relationships condoned in the NT are those between the opposite sex..

And Romans1:18 says god has already revealed his wrath to those people. What was he doing to them and is he still doing it now?
Who was it in the NT who told the people to refrain from sex with their wives until the end times had come, or something like that? That was a big oops.
Oh and the passage you referenced doesn't prohibit anything it just says your god had punished them for their behaviour.

I honestly don't understand your questions. Refrain from sex with wives in the NT?

Can you clarify?

What about Romans 1:18 and 1:27??

Romans chapter 1 was written to Christians in Rome. Paul seems to be talking to them about God's standard for followers of Him through Jesus Christ. He mentions homosexual conduct among other things that are not consistent with the will of God.

I really am not sure what you are asking, so this is the best I can do for now. I will be happy to try to answer any specific bible question you have (I can only answer based on my knowledge of scripture).

So, you have to resort to quoting Paul. Also, have you read and examined those passages in context, including cultural context?

"Resort to quoting Paul"? Strange. Do you believe Paul was sent by Jesus? To answer your question, yes I've read it in context. I've addresed that question here already.

[noshameinChrist]

[Replying to post 45 by noshameinChrist]

And what was it Jesus said about homosexuality?

If you are asking whether Jesus said anything directly about homosexuality, no he did not. He also never said anything about Beastiality, yet it is a sin. Both are sins based on teaching originally found in the Old Testament.

So is eating shellfish then and wearing a linen/wool blend, are you serious?

Yeah he's shifting like crazy.
At first, noshameinChrist, when confronted with the other directions in Leviticus, you said you knew the difference between the OT and the NT and you agree with the teaching of Jesus. Fair enough.
But when asked where Jesus made claims about homosexuality, you then shifted back to the OT.
So ehm, you really need to be honest here.
The same text you use to judge gay people with, specifically says wearing mixed fabrics and eating shellfish are forbidden, amongst many other weird or misogynistic things.
So again the question, do you also obey these things ?
If not, why not ?

I don't believe I am "shifting" at all. If you would like to share the OT scriptures you are referring to then maybe I can respond with more clarity. As it stands, based on my knowledge of scripture, NT does not prohibit or otherwise speak against "linen" and "shellfish". However, the doctrine of Christ DOES mention prohibitions against sexual immorality of which adultery, fornication, and homosexuality are a part.

To be pleasing to God a person must be willing to let these things go.

Perhaps you could supply the appropriate passages quoting Jesus?

Quid pro quo? Ok. In Matthew 28:18-20 says: "And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen"

This passage is one that establishes Jesus' authority.

your turn for the OT passage.

Not just yet.
This is your claim

However, the doctrine of Christ DOES mention prohibitions against sexual immorality of which adultery, fornication, and homosexuality are a part.

The passage you posted made no mention of any of that. Please try again.
Perhaps you could supply the appropriate passages quoting Jesus?

Oh, I see. Let's try this again. After this, please provide the OT scripture you promised:

First, allow me to say that the "doctrine" of Christ is not limited to the words Jesus spoke while on earth. The witnesses of Jesus, of which Paul was included, were commissioned to spread Jesus words. This is what Jesus directed in Matthew 28:18-20, as well as Mark 16:15-16. In fact, in John 17:17-21 Jesus specifically prays on this matter.

Hence, the passage in Romans 1:27 derives from an apostle (witness) of Jesus, and is therefore a part of the "doctrine" of Christ.

Your turn.

Not a SINGLE word about

However, the doctrine of Christ DOES mention prohibitions against sexual immorality of which adultery, fornication, and homosexuality are a part.

Not a single word of the NT is a witness statement.
Dantalion posted the appropriate OT passages.
My grandsons would be amused at your attempts. Jesus never said a word abot homosexuality, not a single word.
Unfortunately for you and 99 and every religious person on here who has claimed their right to bigotry based upon the teachings of Jesus, YOU FAILED.

Homosexual sex (just as is the case with other sexual sins in the OT) is still sin. Christ offers grace and truth through His sacrifice on the cross (John 3:16). As a Christian, it is my job to proclaim truth in love based on God's Word (John 17:17), I cannot control, nor am I responsible for, your choice to reject His Word. However, please be assured that all will be judged by His Word (which includes those that were sent by Him - His witnesses the apostles) according to John 12:48.

[Goat]

"Resort to quoting Paul"? Strange. Do you believe Paul was sent by Jesus? To answer your question, yes I've read it in context. I've addresed that question here already.

No, actually I don't believe the "Jesus" sent anyone. I think that if Jesus actually existed, that his theology and teachings are vastly distorted by Christians, and a lot of that has to do with the very paganistic interpretation of things from Paul. I personally think there is quite a bit of truth to what Epiphanius in the 4th century stated that the Ebonites claimed about Paul

They declare that Paul was raised in a pagan household. He went up to Jerusalem and when he had spent some time there, was seized with passion to marry the daughter of the high priest; and this was the reason he became a proselyte (Jew) and went through the Jewish ritual of circumcision. But when the lady rejected him, he flew into a rage and wrote against circumcision and against the Sabbath and the Jewish Law (Pamarion 30.16.6).

[KCKID]

So, you have to resort to quoting Paul. Also, have you read and examined those passages in context, including cultural context?

"Resort to quoting Paul"? Strange. Do you believe Paul was sent by Jesus?

As with homosexuality, Jesus never breathed a word about Paul. It was the compilers of the canon of the NT who decided to include Paul's epistles. Were the compilers of the Bible also considered 'divine' and sent by Jesus? They could have chosen to leave out Paul's letters then no one would ever have heard of Paul. So, where did you get the notion that Paul was sent by Jesus? Answer: probably from the minister of your church. If I were to tell you that I was sent by Jesus you would undoubtedly mock the idea. I would then ask you to prove that I was not sent by Jesus using the same methodology that you use to claim that Jesus sent Paul.

[noshameinChrist]

"Resort to quoting Paul"? Strange. Do you believe Paul was sent by Jesus? To answer your question, yes I've read it in context. I've addresed that question here already.

No, actually I don't believe the "Jesus" sent anyone. I think that if Jesus actually existed, that his theology and teachings are vastly distorted by Christians, and a lot of that has to do with the very paganistic interpretation of things from Paul. I personally think there is quite a bit of truth to what Epiphanius in the 4th century stated that the Ebonites claimed about Paul

They declare that Paul was raised in a pagan household. He went up to Jerusalem and when he had spent some time there, was seized with passion to marry the daughter of the high priest; and this was the reason he became a proselyte (Jew) and went through the Jewish ritual of circumcision. But when the lady rejected him, he flew into a rage and wrote against circumcision and against the Sabbath and the Jewish Law (Pamarion 30.16.6).

OK. Your choice. We will certainly disagree on this. I believe Christ sent Paul along with the other apostles to spread the truth of the gospel. My choice.