Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity?

[Moses Yoder]

I don't normally copy and paste an article but this is great stuff. At the end I have a question.

The morning after Chick-fil-A day
AUGUST 2, 2012 BY MIKE PATZ 1 COMMENT

Its the morning after the Chick-fil-A drama and Im still chewing.

I remember the day I was sitting next to an incredibly nice gay guy, enjoying a really good conversation when he dropped the ultimate conversation-killer.

What do you do for a living?

I hate that question. I hate that question because people cant help but size you up when they hear the answer. I hate that question because were already prone to think of ourselves as human doings instead of human beings. I hate that question because of what it does to people when they find out what I do.

Ive often tried to find ways around the question. Ive told people I work with non-profit organizations (this is true). Ive told people that I write (this is true). Ive even told people that I am a spiritual guru that assists people in opening their third eye (I really like this one). For whatever reason, on that day, I just cut to the chase. I work as a pastor of a church.

Everything changed. His next words went something like this:

Listen, Im gay and Im content with who I am. Im sure you are going to say that I was not born this way, and I wont argue the point. For a significant part of my childhood I was violated by a neighbor and then an uncle. Did that play a role in my sexual orientation? Possibly. I also know many people that had a trouble-free childhood and they turned out very happily gay. Regardless of how it occurred, this is who I am now and I make no apologies for the man I have become. If God has a problem with a man who tries to be true to himself, then I have a problem with a God that allows these kinds of things to happen to kids like me in the first place.

I kept thinking how much easier it would have been if I said I was a writer.


Fortunately, Jesus has a way of showing up in the middle of conversations just like these, and on that day He did not disappoint. My friend shared his heart, and I shared mine. Ive never seen people change via argument, which is why I prefer to help people taste and see that the Lord is good.

This is where Christians tend to blow it.

They taste really bad. They serve up some really Biblical truth in some really nauseating ways. They major on minors and minor on majors. They tend to be extremely unaware of their pride, and pride is like bad breath " everybody knows you have it, except for you. Its always easy to scream the loudest about sins you do not personally struggle with.

So why are we yelling?

Im still not sure why Christians are so militant in their opposition of homosexual immorality while they seem to go so mild with their opposition of heterosexual immorality. I hear the concern about homosexuality and the catch phrase is often family values: Imagine how much it will mess up a child who is being raised by two women, the reasoning goes. A kid needs both a father and a mother, we say. Yet the gays I speak with often wonder how the church can talk about family values when 50-60% of Christian couples divorce. Talk about family values. So a community of people that do not stay married is trying to talk to us about marital morality. How ironic.

In light of the fact that Christians have just as much pre-marital sex and watch just as much porn and divorce just as frequently why arent we more embarrassed to speak out on the issue of homosexual sin? Good question.

One guy said, Its funny how you can claim the grace of God to cover heterosexual sin while saying that homosexual sin is beyond the reach of Gods grace.

That brings me to all the Chick"fil-A drama.

I get why Chick-fil-A day looked so annoying to so many people yesterday. I understand why people have planned a kiss-in this Friday. And I can see why people shake their heads when they read yet another homophobic Facebook post.

Church people ask, why wont our culture repent? My answer: because repentance is a learned behavior. Someone has to model it. I tell parents that its silly to expect a child to repent when they have never seen a parent repent. And its futile to wait for a culture to repent when a culture has never seen the Church repent.

Is the real problem with our culture the unrepentant gay community? No. Its an unrepentant Church.

I am so sorry today for all the hatred that Christians have dished out toward gays. I am so sorry for all of the homophobic sarcasm that has come from the pulpits of Christian ministers. I am so sorry for the way we pick and choose which sins to condemn. I am so sorry that we have claimed to follow Jesus while we neglected widows and orphans, and then engaged in gossip and gluttony. I am so sorry that we have provided such a bad example for the rest of society to follow. Im embarrassed, Im ashamed, and I repent. Im serious. I repent.

Yet Im also concerned that when our culture most needs to hear truth, Christians dont know how to tell it.

Weve come to a dangerous moment in culture, and Christians are ill-equipped to handle it. We have reached the point where disagreement is now seen as hatred. I read an article today where a woman was appealing to Christians to recognize their hateful crimes against the homosexual community. I nodded in agreement, but decided to keep reading to see how she itemized these crimes. Paragraph after paragraph described the hurt and rejection resulting from these offenses, but it took a while to get to the actual crime: Christians claim that homosexuality is a sin. I was stunned. Disagreement was equated with hate.

Christians have a substantial challenge on their hands because every generation and every culture is going to disagree with Gods truth at some point. How interesting that our USAmerican culture considers Christianity to be closed-minded on the issue of sexual morality, while the majority of world religions are in agreement in opposition to the USA position on sexuality. Is USA culture not closed-minded for claiming that all these other religions are wrong? Is it not hypocrisy to say that we will be tolerant with everybody " except the people we consider intolerant. Closed-mindedness is not just a religious thing, its a human thing.

If ever Christians needed some good breath, it is now.

Because we have to kiss this world with the truth of God.

The problem is, no matter how good your kiss, your breath can ruin the whole experience. And no matter how much truth we bring, if it does not drip with grace and humility, it always falls flat.

Im not asking Christians to stop telling the truth, Im asking them to brush their teeth.

What does that look like? The apostle Paul said to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy towards all people. (Titus 3:2)

Can you imagine what would happen if an entire chunk of Christians decided to embrace the Titus 3:2 approach? Will people be staging protests and kiss-ins to protest Chick-fil-A? Maybe. But the way of Jesus is to speak evil of no one. Has Chick-fil-A been bullied? Yes. But the kingdom of Jesus response is to avoid quarreling. Is there more drama to come as our culture becomes increasingly polarized? Of course. But if God is our Father, then we have to start showing the family resemblance, being gentle and showing perfect courtesy. This should have an effect on the way we post our thoughts on Facebook. Or talk to angry people at work. Or wait in line at Chick-fil-A.

You see, we cant shrink back on truth-telling or we dishonor the very Gospel. But when we bring the truth of Jesus we have to do it in the Spirit of Jesus.

Or stop being surprised when our culture doesnt want a kiss.

Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity? If not, why do Christians hate gay people so much? If the two are equally bad, why do so many Christians who would never be gay cheat on their wife?

[Allahakbar]

That is a good anti-bullying video. However, is the other message that everyone who acts on their feelings, should have those actions accepted, no matter what they are?

So you didn't get it then. How very sad and yet so very understandable. I am sorry for you and any children you may have.

[bluethread]

That is a good anti-bullying video. However, is the other message that everyone who acts on their feelings, should have those actions accepted, no matter what they are?

So you didn't get it then. How very sad and yet so very understandable. I am sorry for you and any children you may have.

I get that bullying is not an acceptable way to deal with social differences. I am just asking if it is acceptable to recognize social differences and how do you believe one should do that. After all, the thread is comparing homosexuality to infidelity. If the video was exactly the same, but fidelity was seen as abnormal and promiscuity was the norm, would you consider the video to be just as legitimate?

[Allahakbar]

That is a good anti-bullying video. However, is the other message that everyone who acts on their feelings, should have those actions accepted, no matter what they are?

So you didn't get it then. How very sad and yet so very understandable. I am sorry for you and any children you may have.

I get that bullying is not an acceptable way to deal with social differences. I am just asking if it is acceptable to recognize social differences and how do you believe one should do that. After all, the thread is comparing homosexuality to infidelity. If the video was exactly the same, but fidelity was seen as abnormal and promiscuity was the norm, would you consider the video to be just as legitimate?

Actually no, the thread is questioning the validity of both. You believe that homosexuality is an abomination and deserves approbation and in fact deserves eternal torture. That video shows the ignorance and hate of the anti homosexuals. I am not surprised at all that the religious didn't get it, it was made for the intelligent humans.

[noshameinChrist]

That is a good anti-bullying video. However, is the other message that everyone who acts on their feelings, should have those actions accepted, no matter what they are?

So you didn't get it then. How very sad and yet so very understandable. I am sorry for you and any children you may have.

Well, I think I got it. I agree that bullying is never to be tolerated. I also agree that, notwithstanding the bullying, the underlying sin of homosexual sex remains.

With that said, if there was a parallel universe and the God of that universe determined that heterosexual sex was a sin (against the God who created those people), then preaching as the person did in the video would be appropriate.

The reality is that there is no such parallel universe. And, the God who created mankind determined that homosexual sex is a sin. As I tried to express before watching the video, I am defined by God not by some video. My stance on the subject stands with the God I serve.

In addition, and once again, the "love" implementation can be applied to virtually any sexual relationship between two persons. The exact same video can be produced to justify "adultery", "fornication", "incest", "polygamy", etc. It just takes a very slight change to the script.

[Allahakbar]

And, the God who created mankind determined that homosexual sex is a sin.

According to WHO? There is not one iota of evidence that this god you claim has determined anything even exists, much less set rules in place. Ancient iron age and bronze age men wrote the stories you believe.
Get a grip.

[Allahakbar]

Do you believe that the Zombie invasion of Jerusalem is a fact?

[bluethread]

I get that bullying is not an acceptable way to deal with social differences. I am just asking if it is acceptable to recognize social differences and how do you believe one should do that. After all, the thread is comparing homosexuality to infidelity. If the video was exactly the same, but fidelity was seen as abnormal and promiscuity was the norm, would you consider the video to be just as legitimate?

Actually no, the thread is questioning the validity of both.

Last time I checked that was a comparison.

You believe that homosexuality is an abomination and deserves approbation and in fact deserves eternal torture. That video shows the ignorance and hate of the anti homosexuals. I am not surprised at all that the religious didn't get it, it was made for the intelligent humans.

Well, intelligent humans don't engage in presumptuous behavior and generalization. On what do you base your presumption to know what I believe? You definitely didn't ask me. Yes, homosexuality is the scenario. However, if that is all one sees in the video, that one would miss the universal nature of social standards and the discussion of what is and is not appropriate in dealing with social differences.

[KCKID]

I think it's high time that Christians stopped this vendetta against gay people. Just leave them alone. Lord knows, there is so much more with which they could be occupying their time. Here are a few:

- Overpopulation - too many people; no food, water, housing, etc.
- Pollution - environmental damages
- Global Warming - chlorofluorocarbons, etc.
- War - people killing each other ...for what reasons ...?
- Stupidity - general population becoming more and more ignorant and media brainwashed and more concerned with who stays or who gets eliminated from a TV cooking show than they are with those who will go to bed hungry tonight...*sigh*
- Obesity/Disease - people dying from poor decisions or bad luck
- Habitat Destruction - people destroy nature to make room for more people
- Species Extinction - above practices causing diversity of life to diminish
- Religion - People believe many conflicting ideas that lead to conflict

Leave the gays alone and do something worth while!

They won't leave us alone KID. There is absolutely no reason why LGBT's have to label our beliefs as hate, bigotry and this whackadoodle neologism "homophobia" but they just won't be nice. They seem Marx-bent to make us all celebrate their sexual behaviors.

Don't kid yourself that YOUR message is anything other than hostile, negative, unloving, pious and condemning. This is the ONLY reason that the other labels are applied to you. Do the math.

As for the whackadoodle neologism "homophobia" ...that is oftentimes the correct word to use. People are afraid of anything they don't understand. They don't understand that homosexuality is an innate sexual 'condition' in an otherwise perfectly 'normal' human being. In other words, homophobes are merely ignorant people who sometimes respond to things of which they're afraid with hostility. Is this you, 99percent? You DO come across as fitting the definition.

Hey, that reminds me of the old school "community":

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom"both young and old"surrounded the house. They called to Lot, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.

Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, No, my friends. Dont do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But dont do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.

Get out of our way, they replied. This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! Well treat you worse than them. They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

Genesis 19 (Lot in Sodom)

Oh dear, ignorance of scripture at play again. I don't know which town you live in, 99percent, but I can honestly report to you that I have never come across personally - nor have I ever heard of - a group of heterosexual people pounding on someone's door demanding that the host bring out angels to be gang-raped as an example of that town's custom of unwelcoming strangers. Where DO you live ...Sodom?

Please, 99percent, if you MUST hate gays then do so within the confines of your own mind (or church) but DON'T produce scriptures that have NOTHING to do with homosexuality. Be a man and do the right thing. Okay?

Can you imagine what would happen to an Evangelical Church that tried to have services tonight in West Hollywood?

You DO realize that some on this forum don't know what you're talking about, don't you? Is West Hollywood predominantly 'gay'? Is that what you mean? If so and the Evangelical Church preaches a message of condemnation to them and therefore antagonizes them ...why don't you use a different approach? Have you ever tried preaching the LOVE message of Jesus to gay and straight 'sinners'? Just a thought.

That is, IF, there are any Evangelical Churches in West Hollywood.

Well, it seems to me that, if anything, YOU and YOURS are the real examples of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. They didn't welcome strangers and would intimidate a stranger with rape to drive them out of their city. Once the 'gay lens' are removed this is CLEARLY the message of S&G. As per your 'Gay Church' thread, you are suggesting the very same thing ...only minus the rape. You flaunt the fact that you and your church are most unwelcoming to gays. Would you not say that you and yours are the REAL Sodomites?

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 132 by noshameinChrist]

According to you, homosexuals need to seek forgiveness for the way god created them, because Jesus never ever condemned them and you are a follower of Jesus. Is this the position you are championing?

My friend, I am a follower of Christ. He is the champion of salvation, which is offered to all mankind. Scripture teaches that the Lord does not wish for anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9). This is what I try to advance.

Those who engage in homosexual sex need to seek forgiveness for that sin just as someone who might commit fornication or adultery (or in fact any other sin).

I do not believe "God created" people to be homosexual. I believe it is their choice to engage in that conduct. By the same token, I don't believe God created people to engage in fornication or adultery. People make the choice to engage in those acts as well.

Note -- I am not talking about a person's "feelings". I cannot control what a person might be attracted to. I am a married man, but not withstanding this fact I still feel attraction for females other than my wife. However, I have been able to avoid putting myself in a position where I might commit adultery. I don't just simply say, "well, I have an attraction for that female, so I am going to go ahead and have sex with her." To do so would be sin, because adultery is against God (no matter what I might feel). The same applies to homosexual sex. This sin cannot be made OK by "marriage". Homosexual sex is still a sin (no matter what society determines).

You sure are lucky not to have homosexual feelings.

Could you imagine not being able to have sex with your wife because some group of people tell you that you are committing "sin" by doing so?

Lucky for you!
Not so much for people that have a same sex attraction. They get to live their life knowing you can enjoy sex, but they must not ever participate in said act.

Oh.. I almost forgot. God is just!

Yes, I can imagine not being able to fulfill my fleshly desires. There are a whole lot of women in the world that I find attractive. But, I have a wife so I am prohibited from engaging as I might otherwise. Guess what, even if my wife could not address my sexual desires (for whatever reason) I STILL would not have a license to go outside the marriage and engage in sexual contact with other women. So, yes, I can imagine it.

God is absolutely just!

You somehow missed the point.

Humans are biological creatures. You get to act on your desires once you are married.

A homosexual, according to you cannot EVER act on their biological desires.

You claim god is just. I would like you to explain this statement or retract it.

Yes, God is "Just". By "Just" I simply means his commandments apply equally to all (Acts 10:34). I've already used myself as an example. As a Christian, whether or not I have a "biological desire" to have sex with women other than my wife I cannot EVER do so because it is against the teaching of God.

Again, you miss the point.

Please tell me, who in your opinion are homosexuals allowed to have sex with while on this planet?

[99percentatheism]

That is a good anti-bullying video. However, is the other message that everyone who acts on their feelings, should have those actions accepted, no matter what they are?

So you didn't get it then. How very sad and yet so very understandable. I am sorry for you and any children you may have.

I get that bullying is not an acceptable way to deal with social differences. I am just asking if it is acceptable to recognize social differences and how do you believe one should do that. After all, the thread is comparing homosexuality to infidelity. If the video was exactly the same, but fidelity was seen as abnormal and promiscuity was the norm, would you consider the video to be just as legitimate?

Actually no, the thread is questioning the validity of both. You believe that homosexuality is an abomination and deserves approbation and in fact deserves eternal torture. That video shows the ignorance and hate of the anti homosexuals. I am not surprised at all that the religious didn't get it, it was made for the intelligent humans.

While the hysteria inherent in your insulting "the religious" is to be expected when deling with gay activists, the whole propaganda technique of labeling as "hate" any disdain, disgust or opposition to homosexuality is part of an overall "agenda" to manipulate the minds of the masses.

It is an age-old technique.

That you so effortlessly violate the rules here by lodging personal insults is also something the Bible has dealt with accurately:

Get out of our way, the Sodomites replied. This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge!

Well treat you worse than them.

They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

The whole angry rabble-mob-to get-your-way tactic is still used to overwhelm the decent people in society to this day.

In fact, it was just used to defeat the Texas legislature trying to vote in a new law on abortion a few days ago.