The Gay Denomination?

[99percentatheism]

The Gay Denomination.

For those people that desire same gender sexual behavior or thoughts, AND that claim to be a Christian and claim that their beliefs and theology can fit the New Testament witness, instead of waging an endless, fruitless and vicious war on other Christians - that will NEVER accept their gay doctrines and dogmas . . ., - why won't they just declare a new and alternative denomination, just like Watch Tower theological adherants and Mormons?

Why the need to join forces with anti-Christian and secularist movements to attack "Bible believing" Christians?

Afterall, in referencing the New Testament, there is no justifiable comparison of sex acts to being a slave (slavery), or the charge of bigotry and hatefulness in holding that marriage is a man and a woman.

Why not just start an "Out and Proud" Gay Denomination?

[99percentatheism]

Allahakbar

Uno mas por favor:

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. - Jude, to fellow Christians

Is the above text supposed to have something to do with homosexuality? You feature it periodically with which to make some point but I'm not sure what your point is. Still, I have been trying to work it out and I think I might have gotten it at last. Let's see:

Take the "h" from "while"
the "o" from "to"
an "m" from "common"
another "o" from "found"
the "s" from "salvation"
an "e" from "necessary"
the "x" from "exhorting"
the "u" from "you"
the "a" from "was"
the "l" from "delivered"
the "i" from "saints"
the "t" from "certain", and
the "y" from "ungodly".

There! This text DOES reference homosexuality! You sneaky rascal, you!

Red Herring noted. Theological dodge filed under D.

KID here you go:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

- Paul to Roman Christians

So god gave them sinful desires and then got them to act on those desires in some pagan worship ceremony and apparently was already punishing them in themselves.

God gave them up. Or rather gave up on them. I can see why. And as you pint out over and over again, I am far from being divine.

Besides the FACT that it was Paul writing those absurdities, there ain't no prohibition in there.

Paul wrote his observations about people engaging in homosexuality and made the logical conclusion.

Sure looks like nothing has changed there. Reality is a great teacher.

If the punishment for those acts was death and god was there egging them on, why didn't he just kill them?
Paul saw these acts and assumed he knew what god was saying about them, that is not a good path to wander down.

I firmly trust the New Testament witness.

How Paul describes the behavior of reprobates is solid and very accurate compareed to the real world experience of this supposed modern era.

One does not have to imagine what Rome 2000-years ago was like. Paul was afterall, eventually executed by a Male Roman Ruler that was married to men.

[Allahakbar]

Allahakbar

Uno mas por favor:

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. - Jude, to fellow Christians

Is the above text supposed to have something to do with homosexuality? You feature it periodically with which to make some point but I'm not sure what your point is. Still, I have been trying to work it out and I think I might have gotten it at last. Let's see:

Take the "h" from "while"
the "o" from "to"
an "m" from "common"
another "o" from "found"
the "s" from "salvation"
an "e" from "necessary"
the "x" from "exhorting"
the "u" from "you"
the "a" from "was"
the "l" from "delivered"
the "i" from "saints"
the "t" from "certain", and
the "y" from "ungodly".

There! This text DOES reference homosexuality! You sneaky rascal, you!

Red Herring noted. Theological dodge filed under D.

KID here you go:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

- Paul to Roman Christians

So god gave them sinful desires and then got them to act on those desires in some pagan worship ceremony and apparently was already punishing them in themselves.

God gave them up. Or rather gave up on them. I can see why. And as you pint out over and over again, I am far from being divine.

Besides the FACT that it was Paul writing those absurdities, there ain't no prohibition in there.

Paul wrote his observations about people engaging in homosexuality and made the logical conclusion.

Sure looks like nothing has changed there. Reality is a great teacher.

If the punishment for those acts was death and god was there egging them on, why didn't he just kill them?
Paul saw these acts and assumed he knew what god was saying about them, that is not a good path to wander down.

I firmly trust the New Testament witness.

How Paul describes the behavior of reprobates is solid and very accurate compareed to the real world experience of this supposed modern era.

One does not have to imagine what Rome 2000-years ago was like. Paul was afterall, eventually executed by a Male Roman Ruler that was married to men.

Do you regularly witness this sort of pagan debauched behaviour, in this modern era? I am amazed by that!
Or perhaps you do imagine what it was like and the reality will not influence your imagination at all, unless of course you could find some reality to support your imaginings.
Just while we're still here, what was the punishment in themselves? Surely they weren't carrying out gods decree and so stoning themselves to death internally. Paul really needed a decent editor so that he would at least have a small measure of internal continuity and consistency in his stories, don't you think?

[99percentatheism]

Allahakbar

Allahakbar

Uno mas por favor:

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. - Jude, to fellow Christians

Is the above text supposed to have something to do with homosexuality? You feature it periodically with which to make some point but I'm not sure what your point is. Still, I have been trying to work it out and I think I might have gotten it at last. Let's see:

Take the "h" from "while"
the "o" from "to"
an "m" from "common"
another "o" from "found"
the "s" from "salvation"
an "e" from "necessary"
the "x" from "exhorting"
the "u" from "you"
the "a" from "was"
the "l" from "delivered"
the "i" from "saints"
the "t" from "certain", and
the "y" from "ungodly".

There! This text DOES reference homosexuality! You sneaky rascal, you!

Red Herring noted. Theological dodge filed under D.

KID here you go:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

- Paul to Roman Christians

So god gave them sinful desires and then got them to act on those desires in some pagan worship ceremony and apparently was already punishing them in themselves.

God gave them up. Or rather gave up on them. I can see why. And as you pint out over and over again, I am far from being divine.

Besides the FACT that it was Paul writing those absurdities, there ain't no prohibition in there.

Paul wrote his observations about people engaging in homosexuality and made the logical conclusion.

Sure looks like nothing has changed there. Reality is a great teacher.

If the punishment for those acts was death and god was there egging them on, why didn't he just kill them?
Paul saw these acts and assumed he knew what god was saying about them, that is not a good path to wander down.

I firmly trust the New Testament witness.

How Paul describes the behavior of reprobates is solid and very accurate compareed to the real world experience of this supposed modern era.

One does not have to imagine what Rome 2000-years ago was like. Paul was afterall, eventually executed by a Male Roman Ruler that was married to men.

Do you regularly witness this sort of pagan debauched behaviour, in this modern era? I am amazed by that!

I am not surprised at all that you are amazed at that. I have interacted with people like you for over 2-decades and there is always a lack of perspective of things going on. I'm a Christian, I believe there is a reason for this and it is not from the Throne of God.

Or perhaps you do imagine what it was like and the reality will not influence your imagination at all, unless of course you could find some reality to support your imaginings.

The vitriol and pure unleashed animonisty that flows from the positions of the pro gay camp is not imaginary. Read what Antnin Scalia wrote. There is a reason that he referenced the great persecutions of The Church.

Just while we're still here, what was the punishment in themselves?

You really don't know anything about this issue do you?

Surely they weren't carrying out gods decree and so stoning themselves to death internally.

"Stoning themselves to death internally." What a perfect way to put it.

Paul really needed a decent editor so that he would at least have a small measure of internal continuity and consistency in his stories, don't you think?

Paul was so excellent in describing 2000-years ago what we now call "gay behavior" and "gay culture" the only reality about his positions are in the prophetic.

[Allahakbar]

[Replying to post 1831 by 99percentatheism]

It would have been simpler for you to just say you couldn't answer my questions, rather than trying to avoid them like you have.

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 1831 by 99percentatheism]

It would have been simpler for you to just say you couldn't answer my questions, rather than trying to avoid them like you have.

Ahhhhh, the ol' liberal comeback: "Where's your proof?

It gets supplied.

Liberal comeback number 2: "Where's your evidence?"

It gets supplied.

"Where's your proof?"

The merry-go-round of propaganda ad infinitum . . .

Sir, dude, miss, madam, or whatever,

People that claim to be religious and that also claim to engage in or encourage homosexuality should invent their own dogma/religion, or attempt the denomination game to ply their belief system.

The OP is historically civil and sensible.

Your theological questions should dwell there.

[Allahakbar]

[Replying to post 1831 by 99percentatheism]

It would have been simpler for you to just say you couldn't answer my questions, rather than trying to avoid them like you have.

Ahhhhh, the ol' liberal comeback: "Where's your proof?

It gets supplied.

Liberal comeback number 2: "Where's your evidence?"

It gets supplied.

"Where's your proof?"

The merry-go-round of propaganda ad infinitum . . .

Sir, dude, miss, madam, or whatever,

People that claim to be religious and that also claim to engage in or encourage homosexuality should invent their own dogma/religion, or attempt the denomination game to ply their belief system.

The OP is historically civil and sensible.

Your theological questions should dwell there.

I think that either your monitor is faulty or the computer supplying the information that appears on that monitor is faulty. Or perhaps you imagine things that do not appear on said monitor to be on that monitor?
Just to clarify for you, what?

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 1831 by 99percentatheism]

It would have been simpler for you to just say you couldn't answer my questions, rather than trying to avoid them like you have.

Ahhhhh, the ol' liberal comeback: "Where's your proof?

It gets supplied.

Liberal comeback number 2: "Where's your evidence?"

It gets supplied.

"Where's your proof?"

The merry-go-round of propaganda ad infinitum . . .

Sir, dude, miss, madam, or whatever,

People that claim to be religious and that also claim to engage in or encourage homosexuality should invent their own dogma/religion, or attempt the denomination game to ply their belief system.

The OP is historically civil and sensible.

Your theological questions should dwell there.

I think that either your monitor is faulty or the computer supplying the information that appears on that monitor is faulty. Or perhaps you imagine things that do not appear on said monitor to be on that monitor?
Just to clarify for you, what?

Just agree with the OP and its sensible nature and direct your activism and encouraging of homosexuality there theologically.

The vitriol directed at Christians that keep to the orthodoxy towards the inappropriateness of homosexuality can simply be diffused in the religious setting by open and declared gay religions and gay religious places. Society can move on from there. Then the supposed connection between "gay Christians" and orthodox bible-believing Christians, can be entertained in simple theological differences of opinion. Just like the other denominations do now.

You just don't see Mormons suing Christians for hate crimes.

Thread back on track.

[KCKID]

Here's a question I should have asked 12 months ago. 99percent ...is homosexuality a salvation issue? If it is, would you point me to the scripture that tells us this? If it isn't, then what the heck is the point of this thread?[font=Times New Roman][/font]

[Allahakbar]

[Replying to post 1831 by 99percentatheism]

It would have been simpler for you to just say you couldn't answer my questions, rather than trying to avoid them like you have.

Ahhhhh, the ol' liberal comeback: "Where's your proof?

It gets supplied.

Liberal comeback number 2: "Where's your evidence?"

It gets supplied.

"Where's your proof?"

The merry-go-round of propaganda ad infinitum . . .

Sir, dude, miss, madam, or whatever,

People that claim to be religious and that also claim to engage in or encourage homosexuality should invent their own dogma/religion, or attempt the denomination game to ply their belief system.

The OP is historically civil and sensible.

Your theological questions should dwell there.

I think that either your monitor is faulty or the computer supplying the information that appears on that monitor is faulty. Or perhaps you imagine things that do not appear on said monitor to be on that monitor?
Just to clarify for you, what?

Just agree with the OP and its sensible nature and direct your activism and encouraging of homosexuality there theologically.

The vitriol directed at Christians that keep to the orthodoxy towards the inappropriateness of homosexuality can simply be diffused in the religious setting by open and declared gay religions and gay religious places. Society can move on from there. Then the supposed connection between "gay Christians" and orthodox bible-believing Christians, can be entertained in simple theological differences of opinion. Just like the other denominations do now.

You just don't see Mormons suing Christians for hate crimes.

Thread back on track.

I have spent some considerable time and effort over these days attempting to enlighten you as to the teachings of the man you use in the name of the religion you claim to represent.
You call yourself a christian. That name is derived from the character in a book commonly known as the New Testament. That character is a man (or god) called jesus christ.
You claim that this man/god condemns behaviour such as love between same sex adults and yet as I have pointed out to you, this jesus has consistently taught.... LOVE EVERYONE, in the NT.
In fact I have shown you repeatedly that this jesus never ever mentions same sex relationships unless you count his imprecation for everybody to love everybody. Any honest reading of that command must mean that same sex love is CONDONED by jesus.
I am honestly at a loss to understand why an alleged follower of this jesus would, not only, defy this command but in fact try to teach against it.
It is obvious from your rejection of the teachings of Christ that you should no longer claim to be a follower of Christ and should therefore start a belief system created around your own teachings and give your religion a name that doesn't associate yourself or your beliefs with the teachings found in the NT. Now this is only my opinion and I mean no disrespect at all.
Do you understand my POV?
As you can see, I hope, I have attempted to return to the theme of the thread. I think as per your request, I hope.

[KCKID]

99percent, I'm looking forward to your response regarding Allahakbar's nicely constructed post (above) and my previous question that asked: Is one's sexuality (i.e. homosexuality) a salvation issue?

Thanks.