Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

[Replying to post 1449 by Goose]
Goose here is the bottom line.

If the resurrection of Jesus happened, it either happened in a way that is within the laws of physics, or it happens in a way that is outside the laws of physics.

If you allege that it happened in a way that is within the laws of physics, like some kind of Lazarus Syndrome medical event, then it was not supernatural, and the whole of Christianity is dead in the water.

If you allege that it happened in a way that was OUTSIDE the laws of physics, like a supernatural intervention, then no amount of historical evidence is going to be sufficient, because historical evidence is trumped by empirical physical evidence.


Let's think about the assassination of Caesar. It either happened in a way that is within the laws of physics, or in a way that is outside the laws of physics.

If it happened in a way that is within the laws of physics, like a bunch of guys stabbing him, then it was not supernatural.

If it happened in a way that is outside the laws of physics, like guys stabbing him with magical knives that only kill evil people, then no amount of historical evidence is going to be sufficient, because historical evidence is trumped by empirical physical evidence.

Game over.

[Sonofason]

The evidence itself for each event should be held to the same standard. Otherwise we are discriminating against the evidence on the basis the claim disagrees with our world view. Each event should then either pass or fail on its own merits. Whether or not one is more extraordinary than the other should be irrelevant at the outset.

That's not how it works for anything except conspiracy theory and theist apologetics.

Criminal and civil courts have much different standards of evidence. Criminal is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and civil is based on the preponderance of the evidence. And for good reason.

Evolution has a tremendous amount of evidence from various disciplines showing us that it does in fact happen. In contrast, a biologist wouldn't have to collect the same amount evidence on the duckbill platypus' mating habits to tell us they reproduce sexually.

Likewise, there's enough evidence to suggest Caesar was a real man who was stabbed to death. It doesn't conflict with the laws of physics and is consistent with real evidence. Anthropologists and archaeologists (scientists) have objective methodologies which theologians and apologists lack.

Carl Sagan popularized the saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

This basically means that the more unlikely, important, or seemingly impossible the claim (eg, resurrection by truly dead people), the higher the standard of evidence. I don't even believe video of alleged supernatural events. I invite you to do some critical thinking of your own and consider this information.

You haven't presented sufficient evidence to convince us that Jesus rose from the dead. In fact, you haven't even presented sufficient evidence he actually existed.

Why do so many atheists insist that there is an abundance of evidence for evolution, but they never provide any evidence? So please show me evidence. I don't want to see some book of fiction written by some scientist with a social agenda. I want to see real evidence of evolution. If eye witness accounts of Biblical authors are not admissible evidence for the existence of God, then your eye witness accounts in your science text books are also inadmissible evidence for the existence of evolution. Show me evidence of evolution. I don't want your personal opinions. I want proof. I don't want your textbook myths. I want proof. So, now, prove that evolution is a reality.

Dude, the evidence for evolution is conclusive. The fact that the subject matter is too complicated for you to understand, doesn't mean that the evidence isn't there.

I could give you very strong evidence right now, but I would have to use a bunch of words you don't understand.

Eh, I'll try. Here's the simplest piece of evidence for evolution I can think of: A second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2.

There you go. Did nothing for you, right? I promise, once you hit 8th grade it will all make sense.

I'm sorry, but substituting one claim for another claim is not evidence. Please show me the evidence that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2".

This is just another claim. Now, prove your claim.

[Danmark]

I'm sorry, but substituting one claim for another claim is not evidence. Please show me the evidence that "a second inactive centomere [sic] and a centrally located talomere [sic] are present in human chromosome 2".

This is just another claim. Now, prove your claim.

Since the mid-1800s, biologists have generally shared the belief that all living things descended from a single common ancestor. More recent research has supported Darwin's theory of common descent. Genome analysis reveals the genetic difference between humans and chimps to be less than 2 percent; however, great apes all have 48 chromosomes and humans only 46.

Either the common ancestor had 24 pairs, and humans carry a fused chromosome; or the ancestor had 23 pairs, and apes carry a split chromosome.

In 2005, a peer-reviewed scientific journal published results of the tests. It turns out that chromosome 2, which is unique to the human lineage of evolution, emerged as a result of the head-to-head fusion of two ancestral chromosomes that remain separate in other primates. Three genetic indicators provide strong, if not conclusive, evidence of fusion. First, the banding (or dye pattern) of human chromosome 2 closely matches that of two separate chromosomes found in apes (chimp chromosome 2 and an extra chromosome that does not match any other human chromosome). Second, a chromosome normally has one centromere, or central point at which a chromosome's two identical strands are joined. Yet remnants of a second, presumably inactive centromere can be found on human chromosome 2. And third, whereas a normal chromosome has readily identifiable, repeating DNA sequences called telomeres at both ends, chromosome 2 also has telomere sequences not only at both ends but also in the middle.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libra ... 73_47.html

Peer-reviewed scientific journal indicates the findings were published eight years ago and can be reviewed and tested by those who say "... prove your claim."

[Sonofason]

[Replying to post 1461 by Danmark]

no evidence no belief wrote:

Dude, the evidence for evolution is conclusive. The fact that the subject matter is too complicated for you to understand, doesn't mean that the evidence isn't there.

I could give you very strong evidence right now, but I would have to use a bunch of words you don't understand.

Eh, I'll try. Here's the simplest piece of evidence for evolution I can think of: A second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2.

There you go. Did nothing for you, right? I promise, once you hit 8th grade it will all make sense.

Sonofason wrote:

I'm sorry, but substituting one claim for another claim is not evidence. Please show me the evidence that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2".

This is just another claim. Now, prove your claim.

Danmark wrote:

Since the mid-1800s, biologists have generally shared the belief that all living things descended from a single common ancestor. More recent research has supported Darwin's theory of common descent.

Yet another claim without evidence.

Danmark wrote:

Genome analysis reveals the genetic difference between humans and chimps to be less than 2 percent; however, great apes all have 48 chromosomes and humans only 46.

Here, we have two more claims. Where is the evidence for these claims of yours?

Danmark wrote:

Either the common ancestor had 24 pairs, and humans carry a fused chromosome; or the ancestor had 23 pairs, and apes carry a split chromosome.

This appears to be an opinion. Do you have any evidence to show to support this opinion of yours?

Danmark quotes:

In 2005, a peer-reviewed scientific journal published results of the tests. It turns out that chromosome 2, which is unique to the human lineage of evolution, emerged as a result of the head-to-head fusion of two ancestral chromosomes that remain separate in other primates. Three genetic indicators provide strong, if not conclusive, evidence of fusion. First, the banding (or dye pattern) of human chromosome 2 closely matches that of two separate chromosomes found in apes (chimp chromosome 2 and an extra chromosome that does not match any other human chromosome). Second, a chromosome normally has one centromere, or central point at which a chromosome's two identical strands are joined. Yet remnants of a second, presumably inactive centromere can be found on human chromosome 2. And third, whereas a normal chromosome has readily identifiable, repeating DNA sequences called telomeres at both ends, chromosome 2 also has telomere sequences not only at both ends but also in the middle.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libra ... 73_47.html

Great. Now you've shown the source of your claims and opinions, but where is the evidence to support these opinions and claims? Please provide evidence that what you state here is true. Please provide evidence that these claims that you've quoted are true.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1461 by Danmark]

no evidence no belief wrote:

Dude, the evidence for evolution is conclusive. The fact that the subject matter is too complicated for you to understand, doesn't mean that the evidence isn't there.

I could give you very strong evidence right now, but I would have to use a bunch of words you don't understand.

Eh, I'll try. Here's the simplest piece of evidence for evolution I can think of: A second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2.

There you go. Did nothing for you, right? I promise, once you hit 8th grade it will all make sense.

Sonofason wrote:

I'm sorry, but substituting one claim for another claim is not evidence. Please show me the evidence that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2".

This is just another claim. Now, prove your claim.

Danmark wrote:

Since the mid-1800s, biologists have generally shared the belief that all living things descended from a single common ancestor. More recent research has supported Darwin's theory of common descent.

Yet another claim without evidence.

Danmark wrote:

Genome analysis reveals the genetic difference between humans and chimps to be less than 2 percent; however, great apes all have 48 chromosomes and humans only 46.

Here, we have two more claims. Where is the evidence for these claims of yours?

Danmark wrote:

Either the common ancestor had 24 pairs, and humans carry a fused chromosome; or the ancestor had 23 pairs, and apes carry a split chromosome.

This appears to be an opinion. Do you have any evidence to show to support this opinion of yours?

Danmark quotes:

In 2005, a peer-reviewed scientific journal published results of the tests. It turns out that chromosome 2, which is unique to the human lineage of evolution, emerged as a result of the head-to-head fusion of two ancestral chromosomes that remain separate in other primates. Three genetic indicators provide strong, if not conclusive, evidence of fusion. First, the banding (or dye pattern) of human chromosome 2 closely matches that of two separate chromosomes found in apes (chimp chromosome 2 and an extra chromosome that does not match any other human chromosome). Second, a chromosome normally has one centromere, or central point at which a chromosome's two identical strands are joined. Yet remnants of a second, presumably inactive centromere can be found on human chromosome 2. And third, whereas a normal chromosome has readily identifiable, repeating DNA sequences called telomeres at both ends, chromosome 2 also has telomere sequences not only at both ends but also in the middle.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libra ... 73_47.html

Great. Now you've shown the source of your claims and opinions, but where is the evidence to support these opinions and claims? Please provide evidence that what you state here is true. Please provide evidence that these claims that you've quoted are true.

I did you chose to ignore and redact the most important part of the post:

Peer-reviewed scientific journal indicates the findings were published eight years ago and can be reviewed and tested by those who say "... prove your claim."

So now it's your turn to do your own research or find peer reviewed experiments published in a scientific journal that disputes it.

As I noted, the research was published 8 years ago, plenty of time for some Creationist research to attempt to contest it.


Or... you repeat "prove your claim" like a hiccup ad naseum.
Or we can play "prove you exist."

[Sonofason]

[Replying to post 43 by PghPanther]

PghPanther wrote:

My greatest concern of all this.... is of claims made in scriptures of extraordinary events when the documentation process of these claims is horrendously flawed as a historical process......Let’s stay with the New Testament for example…………………

First, no eye witness accounts cannot be established in first generation authored manuscripts.....and eye witness accounts even if they were able to be documented are of no use when considering they are from so long ago by rationally ignorant bronze age peasants...

If your logic is sound, then we can expect that in 2,000 more years, this is exactly how people will be describing us. Please understand, that when I say us, I am including you. They may not call "us" peasants, but I imagine they will be calling us rationally ignorant. How much more developed is the human brain of today compared with that of these "rationally ignorant bronze age peasants" you refer to? Evolution is happening really fast these days, isn't it? What used to take hundreds of thousands of years takes place in just a couple thousand years now. It's amazing.

PghPanther wrote:

And now with thousands of manuscripts of all this in which none of them agree

Can you give two examples? I'd like to see the sort of manuscripts you are comparing with one another. Otherwise, this is just another unsupported claim.

[Sonofason]

[Replying to post 1463 by Danmark]

Sonofason wrote:

Great. Now you've shown the source of your claims and opinions, but where is the evidence to support these opinions and claims? Please provide evidence that what you state here is true. Please provide evidence that these claims that you've quoted are true.

Danmark wrote:

I did you chose to ignore and redact the most important part of the post:

Peer-reviewed scientific journal indicates the findings were published eight years ago and can be reviewed and tested by those who say "... prove your claim."

And there we have it, another claim. Why is it that atheists such as yourself only provide claims, and never provide any evidence?

I'll tell you why. You don't understand the evidence. You believe what you hear by faith, because you believe in science. You have great faith Danmark, even greater faith than mine it seems.

I ask for evidence, and Danmark says I have to find my own evidence.

Danmark wrote:
So now it's your turn to do your own research or find peer reviewed experiments published in a scientific journal that disputes it.

Disputes what? --- The claims that you've just presented? I don't want to see more claims. I want you to show me evidence that the claims you've made are true. I want the evidence, not the claims of evidence. So, show the evidence.

Danmark wrote:

As I noted, the research was published 8 years ago, plenty of time for some Creationist research to attempt to contest it.

I think that before a Creationist is compelled to contest a claim, it should be forthcoming that the person making the original claim provide some evidence to support it. So, show some evidence to support your claims.

[Star]

I'm sorry, but substituting one claim for another claim is not evidence. Please show me the evidence that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2".

This is just another claim. Now, prove your claim.

You should check out a little something called a "search engine".

I'm struggling to understand how your education is our responsibility.

Science meets its burden of evidence, whether you're familiar with the research, or not.

Here's the link, anyway. It took all of 20 seconds for me to find it.

http://www.rpgroup.caltech.edu/courses/ ... ch2003.pdf

[Star]

If eye witness accounts of Biblical authors are not admissible evidence for the existence of God, then your eye witness accounts in your science text books are also inadmissible evidence for the existence of evolution. Show me evidence of evolution. I don't want your personal opinions. I want proof. I don't want your textbook myths. I want proof. So, now, prove that evolution is a reality.

Peer-reviewed published scientific research and repeatable experiment are worlds apart from supernatural and superstitious hearsay from uneducated men thousands of years ago.

Clearly, you don't understand science. It's not based on hearsay or just eye witness accounts. I encourage you to do some reading on the scientific method and the peer review process.

[Sonofason]

I'm sorry, but substituting one claim for another claim is not evidence. Please show me the evidence that "a second inactive centomere and a centrally located talomere are present in human chromosome 2".

This is just another claim. Now, prove your claim.

You should check out a little something called a "search engine".

I'm struggling to understand how your education is our responsibility.

Science meets its burden of evidence, whether you're familiar with the research, or not.

Here's the link, anyway. It took all of 20 seconds for me to find it.

http://www.rpgroup.caltech.edu/courses/ ... ch2003.pdf

I have to admit, I'm having a hard time understanding all these claims. Exactly which claim presented in this journal am I supposed to take as evidence of evolution? Perhaps you can explain the findings to me, in your own words please.