Evolution

[keithprosser3]

Given the nature of reproduction and of natural selection isn't evolution inescapable?
How can evolution not happen?

[scourge99]

Nice post, Daniel. Very concise.

It appears my argument gets stuck when I try to compare biology to technology. The counter argument is that they're just not the same thing. Why? Because technology rests on conscious thoughts and ideas, as you stated:

You also don't seem to understand that analogies do not make an argument. They are just a tool to use in making a point.

In particular you seem to be engaging in a fallacy known as a "false anaolgy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy

The process of analogical inference involves noting the shared properties of two or more things, and from this basis inferring that they also share some further property.[1][2] The structure or form may be generalized like so:[1]

* P and Q are similar in respect to properties a, b, and c.
* Object P has been observed to have further property x.
* Therefore, Q probably has property x also.

So here's a new point to add: where does our consciousness come from?

Is a manifestation of a working brain similar to how an operating system is a manifestation of a working computer.

OK, .. but who wrote and installed the 'operating system' in the brain? It wasn't evolution, even you agree as you state it just below

Nature is what "designed" the mind. Just like nature "designs" snowflakes.

But you don't believe evolution so there is no point in even discussing scientific matters with you. Its pointless to talk about science with a science denier.

If our consciousness arises exclusively out of the fact that we have brains... well, brains evolved, didn't they? If we agree that "environmental pressures are derivatives of conscious effort and thought", then we should also agree that conscious effort and thought are derivatives of biological evolution.

... Though a mind may be a manifestation of a working brain which was produced by evolution, a mind has no means to pass its knowledge through genes. That is, our physical bodies are influenced by evolution because evolution works on our genes. But our thoughts are not dictated by our genes. There is no way for evolution to act upon our thoughts because our thoughts and beliefs are not encoded in our genes.

I believe that our thoughts and beliefs 'move on' after our physical body/brain dies?

And what EVIDENCE do you have to support this belief?

Isn't it the 'mind', .. that spirit (that operating system) within man that runs the brain?

An operating system isn't something separate from a computer. Its just a configuration of the computer's parts, specifically a computer's memory. Operating system's are purely conceptional. They don't actually exist as a physical entity. This is why operating systems can't run separate from a computer.

Likewise, the mind/spirit isn't separate from the brain. The mind is a manifestation of the brain. Furthermore, the mind can't exist separate from the brain as ALL THE EVIDENCE indicates. Have you ever seen or encountered a disembodied mind/spirit? If not, then why believe they exist? Because a book tells you?

Without it the brain is dead

How do you claim to know this? What evidence is there of this

How do you know someone is missing their spirit?, .. just sitting there like a working computer without an operating system, a complex array of trillions of perfectly aligned cells, .. purposeless and useless.

I can't make sense of this example. I know of no real world example of someone "missing their spirit" that isn't caused by brain damage.

You seem to be just inventing explanations without anything solid to actually back it.

[arian]

Is a manifestation of a working brain similar to how an operating system is a manifestation of a working computer.

OK, .. but who wrote and installed the 'operating system' in the brain? It wasn't evolution, even you agree as you state it just below

Evolution isn't a thing. Its not a person or an object.

Yet it could 'create' such a complex thing as the mind?

Its a concept, a process. Nature, using natural selection is what "designed" the mind.

Again, if evolution isn't a thing, person or object, how was IT, .. wait, it wasn't an it/object, .. how was she .. wait, .. she wasn't a person! OK, so this 'whatever' was a concept, .. but how could a concept reason and develop a concept?
Then process a plan, and design such incredibly complex thing as the brain and then the mind?

Was 'concept' planning to develop the mind when it was creating the brain? Or first [strike]it[/strike] 'concept' created the brain just to see what would happen?
You know, like the trees with fruit on it, then waited to see if any single-celled ape would evolve out of the primordial soup to eat it, .. and by golly the plan, oops, .. sorry, no plan, but the concept worked. Good concept I'd say!

But you don't believe evolution so there is no point in even discussing this matter with you. Its pointless to talk about science with science deniers.

It's also pointless to talk about science with such religious folk like Evolutionists who have such strong faith in a perverted science they've been indoctrinated into.

If our consciousness arises exclusively out of the fact that we have brains... well, brains evolved, didn't they? If we agree that "environmental pressures are derivatives of conscious effort and thought", then we should also agree that conscious effort and thought are derivatives of biological evolution.

... Though a mind may be a manifestation of a working brain which was produced by evolution, a mind has no means to pass its knowledge through genes. That is, our physical bodies are influenced by evolution because evolution works on our genes. But our thoughts are not dictated by our genes. There is no way for evolution to act upon our thoughts because our thoughts and beliefs are not encoded in our genes.

I believe that our thoughts and beliefs 'move on' after our physical body/brain dies?

And what EVIDENCE do you have to support this belief?

FAITH, which also isn't a thing, person or an object but a product of rational reasoning through philosophy and science (not religion). It's a purposeful act of the mind,

... unlike evolution which is by chaotic chance from the realm of 'nothing'.

Isn't it the 'mind', .. that spirit (that operating system) within man that runs the brain?

An operating system isn't something separate from a computer. Its just a configuration of the computer's parts, specifically a computer's memory. Operating system's are purely conceptional. They don't actually exist as a physical entity. This is why operating systems can't run separate from a computer.

How does it not exist and be separated, when you can save it on a memory-stick and it lives on. You can use it and give life into a New Body (computer), just like our mind/spirit is saved and will inherit a new body on That Great Day of the Lord!

Likewise, the mind/spirit isn't separate from the brain. The mind is a manifestation of the brain. Furthermore, the mind can't exist separate from the brain as ALL THE EVIDENCE indicates. Have you ever seen or encountered a disembodied mind/spirit?

Like asking if I've seen the information in the memory-stick? No, .. but I Believe it's there as ALL THE EVIDENCE indicates.

If not, then why believe they exist? Because a book tells you?

No, the Book only tells me; what-why and where to look, .. in this case science and technology for evidence.
I bet you believe in a lot of books too, .. why?

Without it the brain is dead

How do you claim to know this? What evidence is there of this

Because I have accidentally wiped out a few memories from my computers in the 80's, and killed my computer. .. dead no matter how hard I banged on the table. Then I had to go back to the computer store and get a new soul for that specific make and model and revive it. Same thing, .. pretty much.

How do you know someone is missing their spirit?, .. just sitting there like a working computer without an operating system, a complex array of trillions of perfectly aligned cells, .. purposeless and useless.

I can't make sense of this example. I know of no real world example of someone "missing their spirit" that isn't caused by brain damage.

And I see millions of them, .. spiritually dead, walking zombies without a purpose. Life without a reason, lack of faith just waiting to die like the rest of their animal cousins. Their brain intact, body works fine, but they're missing their spirit, existing without a soul. It's far worse than brain damage.

You seem to be just inventing explanations without anything solid to actually back it.

You mean 'solid' like Evolution theory?

[scourge99]

Is a manifestation of a working brain similar to how an operating system is a manifestation of a working computer.

OK, .. but who wrote and installed the 'operating system' in the brain? It wasn't evolution, even you agree as you state it just below

Evolution isn't a thing. Its not a person or an object.

Yet it could 'create' such a complex thing as the mind?

It creates complex things like snowflakes, stars, weather patterns doesn't it? Or is god twiddling his fingers in all these things, making every unique snowflake, creating every star, and constantly setting the weather?

Its a concept, a process. Nature, using natural selection is what "designed" the mind.

Again, if evolution isn't a thing, person or object, how was IT, .. wait, it wasn't an it/object, .. how was she .. wait, .. she wasn't a person! OK, so this 'whatever' was a concept, .. but how could a concept reason and develop a concept?
Then process a plan, and design such incredibly complex thing as the brain and then the mind?

In a similar way nature "designs" snowflakes. It simply is a process that is completely controlled by the operations of physics, chemistry, etc. There is no magic or person guiding it anymore than there is a person designing each snowflake or a person is controlling the tides.

You know, like the trees with fruit on it, then waited to see if any single-celled ape would evolve out of the primordial soup to eat it, .. and by golly the plan, oops, .. sorry, no plan, but the concept worked. Good concept I'd say!

Evolution has no goal or purpose. Its an unguided process. Evolution did not plan on evolving a primordial soup into apes or anything silly like that.

As i told Oliviso, your inability to comprehend concepts outside your narrow worldview comes as no surprise. You've engaged in many many debates about evolution on this forum and yet you still do not show the slightest bit of understanding on the subject. So it comes as no surprise to me that you if you cannot understand even the basics of evolution, you won't understand the relationship between evolution and the emergence of the mind.

But you don't believe evolution so there is no point in even discussing this matter with you. Its pointless to talk about science with science deniers.

It's also pointless to talk about science with such religious folk like Evolutionists who have such strong faith in a perverted science they've been indoctrinated into.

Evolution is understood as true by an overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Those who reject evolution are the minority and usually are the least educated. http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/Hold- ... igins.aspx

A whooping 71% of people with post graduate degrees accept evolution. That number is even higher if we just look at people who have science degrees. That is a far cry from being "perverted science".



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You had more but i really don't care. I've seen the types of responses and arguments you make on this forum. I've also seen witnessed your inability to absorb new information. I'm not impressed. I don't wish to waste large amounts of time giving detailed answers to someone who isn't actually making a good faith effort to understand.

[arian]

It creates complex things like snowflakes, stars, weather patterns doesn't it? Or is god twiddling his fingers in all these things, making every unique snowflake, creating every star, and constantly setting the weather?

Thank you scourge99, and remember this is a debating forum where even a dumb, hard headed and uneducated man like me is allowed to speak his mind. I mean you should see the poor comments that some atheists make regarding the Bible, .. you have to wonder if they ever even open those pages! But we Believers just bare it and try our best to debate with them anyways.

Now to answer your above statement:
I see a car. Did someone create this car? Or is man twiddling his fingers in this, making every bolt, every panel, every electronic circuit, wiring, displays and constantly tuning it to get it to run?

Oh yes, .. that's a car. Someone had to build a car, .. besides, what is a car compared to the genetic/atomic make up of a, .. oh let's say; a lily of the field? Right? How about a man, his brain and his mind?
So what is the answer, ..that the car is easy, so we man had to build it it, it's not like it evolved over billions of years or something, Right?

God created the universe, He designed it and assembled it, and through science we observe how it all works, how snowflakes are formed etc.

Its a concept, a process. Nature, using natural selection is what "designed" the mind.

Again, if evolution isn't a thing, person or object, how was IT, .. wait, it wasn't an it/object, .. how was she .. wait, .. she wasn't a person! OK, so this 'whatever' was a concept, .. but how could a concept reason and develop a concept?
Then process a plan, and design such incredibly complex thing as the brain and then the mind?

In a similar way nature "designs" snowflakes. It simply is a process that is completely controlled by the operations of physics, chemistry, etc. There is no magic or person guiding it anymore than there is a person designing each snowflake or a person is controlling the tides.

So why doesn't the rules of this "Evolution process", that is completely controlled by the operations of physics, chemistry, etc. create cars, or planes?

Can you prove to us that the cars didn't evolve? I mean rocks and dirt evolved through billions of years of gasses reacting with each other, from which water and the primordial soup evolved and created single celled bacterium, which in turn over a long time inadvertently evolved ape man, right? So why didn't evolution create some simple things like cars and planes?

I mean fine, I grew up in Detroit so I know we man make cars, .. but I have seen cars that I don't remember making, .. could these have evolved over the billions of years along with rocks and the ores we have in rocks? If not, .. why not?

You know, like the trees with fruit on it, then waited to see if any single-celled ape would evolve out of the primordial soup to eat it, .. and by golly the plan, oops, .. sorry, no plan, but the concept worked. Good concept I'd say!

Evolution has no goal or purpose. Its an unguided process. Evolution did not plan on evolving a primordial soup into apes or anything silly like that.

But that is what I'm saying, if evolution has no goal or purpose and yet created something as awesome as man, his brain and his mind, then why didn't it create cars so we just mine cars from under the ground like we do ores?
Maybe it has, we just didn't look hard enough? Instead of writing books upon books trying to explain why Big-bang Evolution DIDN'T or couldn't create cars, spend more time and money on digging. I don't care about dried up giant lizard bones, I wan't to see what other technology Evolution has or is creating as we speak?

As i told Oliviso, your inability to comprehend concepts outside your narrow worldview comes as no surprise.

What, .. narrow world view? I mean we believe in God who is outside your tiny limited world view. Isn't it you who 'limit' your evolution to what it can create and what it can't? I mean here you say that "Evolution has no goal or purpose. Its an unguided process" which created humans, their brains and their minds, yet you 'limit' it from creating cars!?!

Do you believe that there may be life on other planets in our universe? I mean if you do, even though we have not yet found any, why don't you believe that there may be all kinds of electronic toys and cars and planes under the ground, with batteries evolving in caves just waiting to be placed into those electronic toys?
Or maybe there are planets out there that are evolving buildings, entire cities of them just waiting for us humans to inhabit them?

You've engaged in many many debates about evolution on this forum and yet you still do not show the slightest bit of understanding on the subject. So it comes as no surprise to me that you if you cannot understand even the basics of evolution, you won't understand the relationship between evolution and the emergence of the mind.

I understand basics of evolution as to where and how it all started. After much reading I learned that it all started with a Big-bang, but you guys try to tell me NO, .. That the Big-bang has NOTHING to do with Evolution. So is it us Believers who don't understand 'relationships between subjects', or you Evolutionists?
First make up your minds and decide whether or not there is a relationship between the Big-bang and Evolution or not before you tell us that we don't understand about relationships. Fair enough?

But you don't believe evolution so there is no point in even discussing this matter with you. Its pointless to talk about science with science deniers.

It's also pointless to talk about science with such religious folk like Evolutionists who have such strong faith in a perverted science they've been indoctrinated into.

Evolution is understood as true by an overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Those who reject evolution are the minority and usually are the least educated. http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/Hold- ... igins.aspx

Scientists that don't believe in Evolution? How did they become scientists then? I mean there are even grade schoolers who understand and believe in evolution, so how could there be 'scientists' with a science degree that don't believe in evolution because (as you claim) they are least educated? What college gives uneducated people that can't even understand evolution, science diplomas?

A whooping 71% of people with post graduate degrees accept evolution.

So about 30% have a post graduate degree who are so undereducated that they can't even understand evolution? That is frightening. I guess we do need Agenda 21 and have these angels-of-light educate our children instead of these idiots who have been doing it so far, .. correct?
But who are these illuminated ones that can achieve things we ourselves couldn't for all these years? I wonder?

That number is even higher if we just look at people who have science degrees. That is a far cry from being "perverted science".

I guess we can blame our educational system for graduating scientists with degrees who are below grade-school education, because as I said, even most grade schoolers understand and believe in evolution.

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You had more but i really don't care. I've seen the types of responses and arguments you make on this forum. I've also seen witnessed your inability to absorb new information. I'm not impressed. I don't wish to waste large amounts of time giving detailed answers to someone who isn't actually making a good faith effort to understand.

Believe me, I have put a lot of honest effort into the study of Big-bang Evolution, THAT is why I don't believe in it. And I believe that is why those Scientists that don't believe in it also, not because they are undereducated.

With all the evidence of a Creator who created us and then gave us a little of His mind/spirit to run our brain which in turn runs our body, only pride and religious indoctrination could deny Him, and say something uneducated like; "the universe was created from nothing, with no will or plan of anyone or anything, .. well accept for Big-bang Evolution, which just makes things happen, and get better and better over time, ... long time, .. as long as there is no one there to observe it." And call this science which is the observation of the world around us. NOT fantasizing about the world and the universe around us, but OBSERVING IT. That is where science ends, not make up stories about things they can't explain or understand, .. that would be religion. And you know that Religion remains the only mode of discourse that encourages grown men and women to pretend to know things they manifestly do not know.

[scourge99]

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You had more but i really don't care. I've seen the types of responses and arguments you make on this forum. I've also seen witnessed your inability to absorb new information. I'm not impressed. I don't wish to waste large amounts of time giving detailed answers to someone who isn't actually making a good faith effort to understand.

Believe me, I have put a lot of honest effort into the study of Big-bang Evolution...

So you say. But then here you are conflating the big bang with evolution. Apparently all that "honest effort" isn't enough to even get the basics right.

It's pointless to debate you when you clearly don't even understand what you are talking about at the most basic of levels.

[arian]

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You had more but i really don't care. I've seen the types of responses and arguments you make on this forum. I've also seen witnessed your inability to absorb new information. I'm not impressed. I don't wish to waste large amounts of time giving detailed answers to someone who isn't actually making a good faith effort to understand.

Believe me, I have put a lot of honest effort into the study of Big-bang Evolution...

So you say. But then here you are conflating the big bang with evolution. Apparently all that "honest effort" isn't enough to even get the basics right.

It's pointless to debate you when you clearly don't even understand what you are talking about at the most basic of levels.

The bigger the lie, the more convincing it will sound, .. until we start investigating it at its most basic level, and strike at its root,

.. instead of hacking at its many branches.

[Bust Nak]

If something as simple as a soapbox racer cannot reach 100 mph, how can something as complex as a Formula One car reach 250 mph? Checkmate atheists.

[10CC]

If something as simple as a soapbox racer cannot reach 100 mph, how can something as complex as a Formula One car reach 250 mph? Checkmate atheists.

dogdidit !

[arian]

If something as simple as a soapbox racer cannot reach 100 mph, how can something as complex as a Formula One car reach 250 mph? Checkmate atheists.

Or how about this one, .. If single celled bacteria left in muddy stale water for millions of years can create something as complex as humans, then how can you Believers believe that a Creator God can exist? Checkmate Believers.

[Bust Nak]

If something as simple as a soapbox racer cannot reach 100 mph, how can something as complex as a Formula One car reach 250 mph? Checkmate atheists.

Or how about this one, .. If single celled bacteria left in muddy stale water for millions of years can create something as complex as humans, then how can you Believers believe that a Creator God can exist? Checkmate Believers.

That is not analogious. It is not of the format of "If X CANNOT do Y, then how can something more complex do Y?"