Moral objective values...

[whisperit]

[font=Verdana]In one of his papers, Dr. William Lane Craig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lane_Craig) argues moral objective values is to say something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. If God does not exist, what is the foundation for moral objective values?[/font][/url]

[Bust Nak]

Countered by someone that views it as completely fine for no reason other than they do not want to be on the wrong end of evolution's struggle for life.

It is far from simple B-N.

I simply disagree with those guys and don't care what they think, how is that anything but simple?

[Artie]

If after watching that you still don't know why the Holocaust was wrong, then once again you have found the 'fatal' flaw in my argument. And again, you win the debate.

I'm not interested in "winning the debate".

1. The Nazis "knew" the Holocaust was right.
2. You "know" the Holocaust was wrong.

I want to know what you use as a reference to determine that your "knowing" is right and not the Nazis.

Two people are trying to solve a mathematical problem but comes up with different solutions. They both claim they "know" they have calculated correctly. So they check in the back of the book where the correct answers are. Where do you check?

[olavisjo]

.

1. The Nazis "knew" the Holocaust was right.
2. You "know" the Holocaust was wrong.

I want to know what you use as a reference to determine that your "knowing" is right and not the Nazis.

I use the evidence as a reference.

Take another look at the evidence...

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 588#606588

Then tell me who was right and who was wrong.

[Artie]

.

1. The Nazis "knew" the Holocaust was right.
2. You "know" the Holocaust was wrong.

I want to know what you use as a reference to determine that your "knowing" is right and not the Nazis.

I use the evidence as a reference.

The Nazis had the same evidence but "knew" the Holocaust was right. Try again.

[olavisjo]

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The Nazis had the same evidence but "knew" the Holocaust was right. Try again.

You have now looked at the evidence, and you still don't know if the Nazis were right or wrong.

I have nothing more to present, I will not be able to convince you that the Holocaust was actually wrong, if you can't come to that conclusion by yourself.

At this point I would concede defeat, but you won't even let me do that.

[10CC]

Objective moral values would of necessity apply to any god that exists, yes?

Yes. Any god, any human, any alien, anybody. Otherwise they wouldn't be objective. Everybody would have to abide by them. Or are there different sets of objective moral values for gods, humans, and aliens?

Sounds subjective to me.

No, the moral values wouldn't have been subjectively invented by the gods, humans or aliens. Like "Thou Shalt Not Murder" must be an objective moral value common to every evolved advanced civilization. If not they would have killed each other and not evolved to become advanced in the first place.

Bible god has no problem with mass murder. Is "thou shalt not murder" then objective or not?

Bible God goes against objective morality then?

Of course he does.

Thus making it's objectivity a farce.

[Goat]

[Replying to whisperit]

Evolution of the weak and sneaky. Showing that intelligence can be used to survive, thrive and even breed without the usual reason to do so.

Take for example a physically pathetic professor of evolution in the standard materialist academic setting. I've never met even one that could fight their way our of a paper sack. Yet, they are doing well financially EXTREMELY WELL financially and many have had a mate and offspring.

There is footage of a smaller and weaker male bug watching two, more powerful, bugs battling out the supremacy for the "right" to mate with a female bug standing by waiting for the superior victor to emerge. While the two good examples of bug
fight for their darwinian prize, the weaker and sneaker male bug creeps in, rapes the female bug and scoots away stealing the genetic prize of the more powerful winner of the dominance fight, who now must mate with his lady bug in futility.

There is no "right and wrong" without God. Laws are instituted by the fearful or powerful for survival of the fittest by any means necessary.

Just behaviors and actions debated by males and females in a circle of life winding down to the inevitable extinction of mankind either sooner or later.

And, I think you have shown quite conclusively there is no right or wrong with God too.. just opinion.

[10CC]

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How do you know? What independent neutral objective source are you using as your reference?

The source of all the independent neutral objective evidence that you need was presented here...

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 588#606588

If that is not enough for you then you have found the 'fatal' flaw in my argument. Congratulations, you win.

The Nazi's either employed a Darwinian method towards weaker individuals of the species and are "guilty" of absolutely nothing but failing to win the world war, or they are "evil monsters" based on the right and wrong God instilled in His creation.

Period.

Did those Jews who didn't acknowledge jesus as their saviour go to heaven, or did your ever loving god sentence them to eternal torture?

Who is more evil the nazi's for killing them or your god for torturing them for eternity?

You see the nazi's did lots of horrible things to the people they slaughtered but eventually those horrible things ceased with death.

Just about then your all loving, all benevolent god threw them into a pit of ETERNAL torture because they didn't accept jesus as the sacrifice, scapegoat and saviour.

Yeah god.

[Artie]

I have nothing more to present, I will not be able to convince you that the Holocaust was actually wrong, if you can't come to that conclusion by yourself.

At this point I would concede defeat, but you won't even let me do that.

What arguments would you have used to convince the Nazis that the Holocaust was wrong? Let's say that you were there and preparing to face the Nazis and the only argument you have is "I know the Holocaust is wrong. Look at these movies." And that's it. What do you think their reaction would be? A complete immediate conversion to your point of view? Now, if you can come up with some real and solid arguments why the Holocaust was wrong that could have convinced even the Nazis I will listen. Otherwise I'll consider you defeated...

[olavisjo]

.

Now, if you can come up with some real and solid arguments why the Holocaust was wrong that could have convinced even the Nazis I will listen. Otherwise I'll consider you defeated...

I am sure that the rule 303 argument worked on the Nazis.

It is one thing to do evil to someone else, but when it is done back to the self then the evil becomes easier to see.