How is one saved?

[AdHoc]

Some people say you need to pray the sinner's prayer, some say believe in Jesus... is there a clear instruction from the Bible how to be saved?

[myth-one.com]

True, but our human spirit is also now ONE with the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe mankind is born with an immortal soul or spirit?

No

Then why do you insist on identifying mankind with a spirit?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Man is flesh and Spirits are spiritual.

Which would make a "human spirit" an oxymoron.

Define "human spirit."

[we-live-now]

True, but our human spirit is also now ONE with the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe mankind is born with an immortal soul or spirit?

No

Then why do you insist on identifying mankind with a spirit?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Man is flesh and Spirits are spiritual.

Which would make a "human spirit" an oxymoron.

Define "human spirit."

Note: By soul, I usually mean "mind, will and emotions" not the term "living being" as the bible sometimes uses the word soul as. However, they can actually overlap sometimes depending if we are looking at God's perspective or man's.

There are two mankinds, one in Adam and a new creation in Christ. One is flesh and one is spirit with Christ being the doorway to the spirit. The mankind in Adam is born in a natural (non-spiritual, fleshly) body completely dead spiritually and disconnected from God because he does not have the eternal spirit of Christ which is eternal life. His "life-source" or human spirit will only provide life for up to 120 years according to God in Gen 6:3.

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh ; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

This non-eternal life source that natural man has I call the "human spirit" but it really is from God as he is the source of ALL life whether forever or not. I don't think the Bible ever mentions a human spirit, but rather calls it a "living soul".

Because man is born totally disconnected from God and in a natural body that can not see, know or understand God he is a slave to sin (separation) and can do nothing but sin. This is because everything done separate from God is sin and ALL he does is sin when he acts (or even believes he is acting) separately from God. This is the way we are born into this world as souls that are alive in a physical body but dead to God and this soul does not have eternal life but mortal (short-lived) life.

However, when we believe that Christ is the living son of God and came to reunite us with God (some call it paying the penalty for our sins) we receive the very spirit of Christ inside us. His very spirit units with our dead, disconnected human spirit (mortal life source) and quickens it or makes it fully alive in him (receiving immortal life source or eternal life). At this time, our soul that was naturally disconnected from God actually get's united with our new immortal, eternal spirit in Christ. This is new birth where we are no longer "of the flesh" but are "of the spirit". Before this happened, we were "of the flesh" or "in the flesh". This is what the bible calls our "old man". This was our deadened (to God) soul and spirit before we believed. He dies when we receive our new perfect spirit inside us (who is Christ himself) and we are "translated" from the realm of the flesh (in our physical body) into the actual spiritual realm in Christ. This is God himself "cutting away the body of the flesh" and performing spiritual circumcision on us! See Col 2:11-12 and this site that has a good teaching on these concepts. http://www.kjvbible.org/body.html

God actually moves our being or soul from the body realm (flesh) into the spiritual realm but it still resides in the physical body. At this point God sees us as we really are - perfect, holy and sinless in Christ. This is why the bible says over and over we are sanctified! It is because we are! He does not recognize ANY part of sin or the flesh as being attached to or connected to our being. All sin is then quarantined to the fleshly realm in our natural body soon to die and be disposed of. We are not in that realm anymore! That is why God says he will separate our sins as "far as the east is from the west"! That is how far the spirit realm is from the natural realm. That is how far a believer is from the sin he may still see in the physical body. Man, this is amazing!

I know this is a difficult concept to explain and understand but I have studied and mediated on it extensively and it is most glorious when God reveals it. Basically, our soul is a function of the type of spirit that we have. We either have a spirit that is dead to God without eternal life in Adam (as an unbeliever) or we have an eternal spirit that has been made one with God and has eternal life as a believer. When we become a believer is when the change is made and our soul becomes new and we are born again from above from the Spirit and totally separated from our sins which are in the flesh (natural body). This is what Jesus meant when he said in John 5:24

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

If we hear Christ's word and believe him, this reveals to us that we already have been moved or translated from our human bodies and into the actual spirit of Christ (which is eternal life)! Anyone who is still in Adam (who doesn't believe) will come into judgment, but not those who have been moved to the spirit realm in Christ. They already passed through to eternal life in Christ and will not face the judgment in Adam which is death because Christ provided this death for them at the cross. Only the natural body of a believer is left to complete the results of this judgment and die, but not the real us (who are Spirit!)

This is why Paul said in Romans 8:10 "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness." He is talking about a believer right now! AMEN!!!!

Again, as a believer, our soul was moved from the natural location in the flesh (body) and into the spirit realm and is one with Christ himself. This is true right now if you are a believer! Your soul is ONE with Christ right now! God only reveals this via faith inside your inner man to those who has determined will believe in this life. None of our (human) natural minds or thinking can arrive at this conclusion. It has to be a revelation from the spirit inside you.

Our "flesh suit" that we are still wearing which is our natural body in Adam will be completely discarded when it dies. It will be replaced with a new immortal, spiritual body that will be able to interact with BOTH GOD in the spirit realm and anything physical. It will never get sick, experience pain or die. I can't wait!

What do you think of all this? What does God tell you inside?

we-live-now

[myth-one.com]

Do you believe mankind is born with an immortal soul or spirit?

No

Then why do you insist on identifying mankind with a spirit?

True, but our human spirit is also now ONE with the Holy Spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Man is flesh and Spirits are spiritual.

Which would make a "human spirit" an oxymoron.

Define "human spirit."

Note: By soul, I usually mean "mind, will and emotions" not the term "living being" as the bible sometimes uses the word soul as.

"Usually" only works with horseshoes and grenades.

The Bible uses the one word "nephesh" in the Hebrew and "psuche" in the Greek for describing both mankind and the other animals.

If God used one word, why doesn't one word work for man's translation?

There are two mankinds, one in Adam and a new creation in Christ. One is flesh and one is spirit with Christ being the doorway to the spirit.

Here is the Bible's description of man:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him?... For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

Here is the Bible's definition of Jesus Christ:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

I only see one mankind.

All mankind is born with a natural fleshy physical body which will die.

This includes Jesus.

In fact, He was made this way for the purpose of dying!

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

This non-eternal life source that natural man has I call the "human spirit" . . .

It is correctly called a man, woman, human, or living being.

. . . don't think the Bible ever mentions a human spirit, but rather calls it a "living soul".

That's because God knows there is no such thing as a "human spirit." There are natural bodies and spiritual bodies:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Only two type of bodies -- and they do not mix:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40)

Man is born of the flesh and may become a spirit when born again at or after the Second Coming.

No human has been born again (saved) to this date.

[we-live-now]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

Myth, you are missing the whole new creation that is alive right now in Christ! We can NOT see it or perceive it with any of our human senses, but it is real, even more real than this natural realm that we perceive with our natural senses. Every description you gave of man is of the old creation, not the new one.

Unfortunately, if you don't see Jesus Christ as fully God AND fully man then you don't see the new creation. You only see the old creation in Adam that Christ completely eliminated at the cross (but has not fully manifested in space and time yet). But, that does not mean it isn't true. It is even more real than what we physically see with our natural eyes! Right now the new creation is purely spiritual and IS alive all around us and in us, but only is in the unseen, TRUE reality of the spirit. It takes faith to see it.

There is SO MUCH more than you are currently seeing! God only recognizes us as we truly are in the spirit and recognizes nothing that is in the flesh or physical, natural realm. The fleshly, natural realm has been destroyed long ago by God because he is already at the END of time. He see's us as we really are, in Christ and perfect! "As he is so are WE in THIS WORLD!" This says we are like Christ NOW, not some future time!

There is so much scripture that I could bring up, but you haven't addressed the ones I have already that clearly show us that we are already as Christ in this world now.

I pray that God would reveal this to you.

we-live-now

[myth-one.com]

Myth, you are missing the whole new creation that is alive right now in Christ! We can NOT see it or perceive it with any of our human senses, but it is real, even more real than this natural realm that we perceive with our natural senses. Every description you gave of man is of the old creation, not the new one.

But Jesus Christ states that our new creation is not yet ready:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When it is ready, He will return with it:

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

Has He returned yet?

I'll have to side with Jesus on this issue.

Anyway, you already admitted that your scriptural theology is a private interpretation:

This non-eternal life source that natural man has I call the "human spirit" . . .

And you admit that it isn't even mentioned in the scriptures:

I don't think the Bible ever mentions a human spirit, but rather calls it a "living soul".

Regarding "private interpretations," the Bible states:

Knowing this first, that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Unfortunately, if you don't see Jesus Christ as fully God . . .

If Jesus was fully God, He could not die for your sins. I and the Bible recognize this dilemma. Sadly, you do not:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Is God a little lower than the angels?

Can God die?

[we-live-now]

Myth, you are missing the whole new creation that is alive right now in Christ! We can NOT see it or perceive it with any of our human senses, but it is real, even more real than this natural realm that we perceive with our natural senses. Every description you gave of man is of the old creation, not the new one.

But Jesus Christ states that our new creation is not yet ready:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When it is ready, He will return with it:

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

Has He returned yet?

I'll have to side with Jesus on this issue.

Cute.

Myth, you are not even open to any new and deeper understanding or revelation of Christ. Your understanding of these scriptures is at a mere human level. You do not hear from the spirit at all it seems. He is revealing many deeper things about the finished work all the time, but it seems you haven't heard any of it. You don't even believe it is finished. You must believe Jesus was lying when he said "it is finished"!

Are you even willing to hear something more if God wants to reveal it to you?

If not, then there is no point in us continuing. If, however, you are open to deeper revelation, God will show you. But, you have to be willing to receive.

we-live-now

[myth-one.com]

Myth, you are missing the whole new creation that is alive right now in Christ! We can NOT see it or perceive it with any of our human senses, but it is real, even more real than this natural realm that we perceive with our natural senses. Every description you gave of man is of the old creation, not the new one.

But Jesus Christ states that our new creation is not yet ready:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When it is ready, He will return with it:

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

Has He returned yet?

I'll have to side with Jesus on this issue.

Cute.

Myth, you are not even open to any new and deeper understanding or revelation of Christ. Your understanding of these scriptures is at a mere human level. You do not hear from the spirit at all it seems. He is revealing many deeper things about the finished work all the time, but it seems you haven't heard any of it. You don't even believe it is finished. You must believe Jesus was lying when he said "it is finished"!

Are you even willing to hear something more if God wants to reveal it to you?

If not, then there is no point in us continuing. If, however, you are open to deeper revelation, God will show you. But, you have to be willing to receive.

we-live-now

If you cannot continue, it is because you cannot answer the questions -- thus you avoid them.

Is Jesus Christ wrong when He states that your new creation is not yet prepared?

If it is not yet prepared, how can you now possess it?

[we-live-now]

Myth, you are missing the whole new creation that is alive right now in Christ! We can NOT see it or perceive it with any of our human senses, but it is real, even more real than this natural realm that we perceive with our natural senses. Every description you gave of man is of the old creation, not the new one.

But Jesus Christ states that our new creation is not yet ready:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When it is ready, He will return with it:

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

Has He returned yet?

I'll have to side with Jesus on this issue.

Cute.

Myth, you are not even open to any new and deeper understanding or revelation of Christ. Your understanding of these scriptures is at a mere human level. You do not hear from the spirit at all it seems. He is revealing many deeper things about the finished work all the time, but it seems you haven't heard any of it. You don't even believe it is finished. You must believe Jesus was lying when he said "it is finished"!

Are you even willing to hear something more if God wants to reveal it to you?

If not, then there is no point in us continuing. If, however, you are open to deeper revelation, God will show you. But, you have to be willing to receive.

we-live-now

If you cannot continue, it is because you cannot answer the questions -- thus you avoid them.

Is Jesus Christ wrong when He states that your new creation is not yet prepared?

If it is not yet prepared, how can you now possess it?

Myth, I didn't explain the meaning of those verses because I believe you will simply reject them without asking God to show you the truth. However, here goes anyway.

“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.�

Ok, first who is Jesus talking to? Answer: his disciples. When was it? Answer: just before the cross. Where did Jesus go? Answer: He died, descended to hades and then came back to earth for a bit, appeared to some on and off over 40 days and then finally went to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the father so that the "helper" or the Holy Spirit could be given to mankind. Jesus told his disciples that the "helper will testify about me and remind you of the things I said".

Now, check out John 12:32.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag) all men unto me.

Please check out the word that means "draw" in the Greek. It means DRAG as in forcefully. Also, the word "men" is in italics which means it was not on the original Greek. This verse really means "if Jesus dies, he all of creation will be sucked into himself"!

This is further confirmed in Col 1:17.

He (Jesus) is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

And in Ephesians 1:10

with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

It has been the fathers plan since the beginning of time to place everything that existed, all of creation into Christ including ALL of humanity. This is what happened at the cross in the true invisible realm of the spirit on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit was finally released from Heaven and "poured out on all mankind" and all of creation. Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17 This effectively and actually placed everything that exists INTO Christ in the Spirit realm!

So, with this in mind, things MUCH bigger than we can imagine happened at the cross behind the veil (that is HIS flesh) in the true realm of the Spirit. Check out Col 1:20

and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

All of creation including all humans were reconciled to God at the cross whether they realize it or not. Only those of whom the father wills it to, know this truth. Others can not know it unless he shows it to them.

So, let's go back to John 14:2-3. What is "the fathers house"? It's JESUS HIMSELF! HE is the father's house because the father does EVERYTHING through his son.

Now, do you see the real meaning of John 14:6?

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And John 10:9?

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

No one could get to the father in the spirit realm unless it was through Jesus. He was going away to prepare spiritual dwelling places for all of humanity in himself - the fathers house.

Also, the father could NOT put anyone into Christ until he was glorified because he represented us. So, when Jesus said he was going away to prepare a "dwelling place" (in original Greek) he was going to the father as a man but would return to his disciples and all of humanity as a Spirit. He returned on the day of Pentecost as his Spirit self to receive all of humanity unto himself in the true spirit realm.

As for Rev 22:12, that one is pretty simple.

Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

This verse is just about eternal rewards. It is no different than these:

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Behold, the Lord has proclaimed to the end of the earth: Say to the daughter of Zion, “Behold, your salvation (Jesus) comes; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.�

Btw, in Is 62:11 Jesus himself is called "our salvation" because he is!

Behold, the Lord God comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.

This verse gives us a clue:

If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

Thus, Rev 22:12 is about eternal rewards. If we believed what Christ said and allowed him to do work in and through us now in this life, we will get a reward. All else (works of self-righteousness) will be burned up in the great fire at the end.

So, I have a bonus for you that you may not understand until God reveals the truths of the verses above to you.

Why in Hebrews 10:20 was Jesus flesh called the "veil"?

by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

we-live-NOW

[myth-one.com]

This verse is just about eternal rewards.

There is only one reward -- everlasting life. Here is how Jesus Christ explained it:

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever have not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. (Matthew 13:12)

Why would God give more to those who already have in abundance while taking away everything from those who hath little?

Jesus understands that physical possessions are unimportant. He would categorize the richest and most powerful people on earth with the "have nots" if they did not have a relationship with Him and be heirs to eternal life.

On the other hand, if a person did have a relationship with Jesus, lived a Christian lifestyle, had his name written in the Book of Life, and would inherit eternal life, he would include that person with the "haves" even if he were penniless.

The only possession you really have is life. The goal is to extend that life to eternity with God.

This one possession will be taken from non-believers forever at the second death:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

On the other hand, those who have much (Christians), shall have even more in abundance:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (I Corinthians 2:9)

What Christians have is their name written in the book of life:

I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (John 10:10)

So there is one reward -- everlasting life.

And there is one punishment -- loss of life.

Simple, huh?

Everlasting life is received at the Second Coming:

And, behold, I come quickly (the Second Coming); and my reward (singular) is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

To date there are zero born again (or saved) Christians. Christians are presently heirs to salvation:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)

The covenant will be probated at the Second Coming. That is when Christians will be born again as spirits and saved from death for all eternity.

Whether you believe that or not -- it is what the scriptures state.

Or you born again or saved?

[we-live-now]

[Replying to post 537 by myth-one.com]

Myth - I don't know what God you believe in or where you got your ideas about him from, but they are not scriptural. You seem to be taking one or two rather vague verses and basing a whole doctrine on them. That is very dangerous as that is what is called a stronghold. It is a belief in our minds that is actually opposed to the true knowledge of God as he reveals it to us. This stronghold exists in our human brain only but opposes the truth in the Spirit. However if the spirit's will is to break through it, he will and we will see the truth in a powerful revelation. Paul talks about it in 2 Cor 10:6

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. (worry) 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds (ochuróma), 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

ochuróma: a stronghold, fortressOriginal Word: ὀχ��ωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ochuróma
Phonetic Spelling: (okh-oo'-ro-mah)
Short Definition: a fortress, strong defense
Definition: a fortress, strong defense, stronghold.
3794 oxýr�ma (from the root oxyro�, "fortify") – a fortified, military stronghold; a strong-walled fortress (A-S), used only in 2 Cor 10:4. Here 3794/oxýr�ma ("a heavily-fortified containment") is used figuratively of a false argument in which a person seeks "shelter" ("a safe place") to escape reality.

I have not yet seen one explanation of the verses I sent to you. I don't see how they could fit into your own ideas about God. Unless you can fit all the verses I sent you into your doctrine and properly explain/defend them, you have to allow God to destroy that stronghold (false imagination) in your human brain because it is setup against the true knowledge of him in Christ. You have created a tiny God in your mind, a God served by human hands. A God that requires us to "live a lifestyle that pleases him". I am sure that you still believe that we are here to serve God. This one sentence gives that away.

On the other hand, if a person did have a relationship with Jesus, lived a Christian lifestyle, had his name written in the Book of Life, and would inherit eternal life, he would include that person with the "haves" even if he were penniless.

I agree with the material possessions ideas, but it sounds like you still believe a believer is under the old covenant of law where it is our JOB to be perfect??? If that is the case, we can't continue these discussions because one who still thinks we are under law CAN NOT see the bigger things of eternal life. They are simply blinded by their flesh and human wisdom.

Why do you avoid all the verses I send you and continue to base your doctrine on a few of the vague ones?

Do you have a way of explaining those verses? If not, then that is a clue that this is a stronghold that must be destroyed. Here are some verses that I bet you can't answer...

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (PRESENT TENSE!) eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed (PAST TENSE) out of death into life.

John 5:24 alone exposes your entire doctrine as false, but you skip over it because you don't believe it.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

also we have obtained (PAST TENSE!) an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

“I know that you can do everything and that your plans are unstoppable.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

These are just a few that I am sure you can't reconcile with your man-centered doctrine of works (religion). However, I am willing to listen if you can.

we-live-NOW