How is one saved?

[AdHoc]

Some people say you need to pray the sinner's prayer, some say believe in Jesus... is there a clear instruction from the Bible how to be saved?

[myth-one.com]

I have not yet seen one explanation of the verses I sent to you.

Why do you avoid all the verses I send you and continue to base your doctrine on a few of the vague ones?

Do you have a way of explaining those verses? If not, then that is a clue that this is a stronghold that must be destroyed. Here are some verses that I bet you can't answer...

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (PRESENT TENSE!) eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed (PAST TENSE) out of death into life.

John 5:24 alone exposes your entire doctrine as false, but you skip over it because you don't believe it.

This is from Post 512 on page 52 by myth-one.com:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

If a believer dies the first death, he rests in his grave awaiting resurrection to everlasting spiritual life.

From God's point of view, that being lived as a human, rests in his grave, and will be born again as an everlasting spirit at the Second Coming. Thus he will never die, so he has life everlasting from the time he became a believer.

Any true believer who never forsakes his belief, has everlasting life from that moment on from God's point of view.

However, they have not been born again of the Spirit. That occurs when they are resurrected to everlasting spiritual life at the Second Coming. That is the moment they are saved.

Their salvation is assured if the die their first death as a believer!!

That's the meaning of John 5:24.

[we-live-now]

I have not yet seen one explanation of the verses I sent to you.

Why do you avoid all the verses I send you and continue to base your doctrine on a few of the vague ones?

Do you have a way of explaining those verses? If not, then that is a clue that this is a stronghold that must be destroyed. Here are some verses that I bet you can't answer...

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (PRESENT TENSE!) eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed (PAST TENSE) out of death into life.

John 5:24 alone exposes your entire doctrine as false, but you skip over it because you don't believe it.

This is from Post 512 on page 52 by myth-one.com:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

If a believer dies the first death, he rests in his grave awaiting resurrection to everlasting spiritual life.

From God's point of view, that being lived as a human, rests in his grave, and will be born again as an everlasting spirit at the Second Coming. Thus he will never die, so he has life everlasting from the time he became a believer.

Any true believer who never forsakes his belief, has everlasting life from that moment on from God's point of view.

However, they have not been born again of the Spirit. That occurs when they are resurrected to everlasting spiritual life at the Second Coming. That is the moment they are saved.

Their salvation is assured if the die their first death as a believer!!

That's the meaning of John 5:24.

There are some problems with this statement.

From God's point of view, that being lived as a human, rests in his grave, and will be born again as an everlasting spirit at the Second Coming.

You say in here that if someone dies their first (physical) death as a believer, he rests in his grave and has not yet been born again into everlasting life, right? Meaning he has not yet received his eternal life.

If so, then Jesus was lying in John 5:24. Let's read it again and pay attention to the words I bolded and underlined.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The word translated as "is passed" is metabainó: which means to pass over, withdraw, depart. This word is the Greek perfect tense which means it has already been accomplished in the past with the results carrying forward to now into the future.

Perfect tense: ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (�) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►). In certain contexts the results are PERMANENT.

Thus, Jesus is saying that anyone who believes in him has already passed over death and into eternal life. It's done already, not occurring in the future at his return.

That is why almost all the translations say that.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

The bible is very clear that once a person believes, they have already fully passed out of death and into eternal life. They already have eternal life at that point which is the Holy Spirit dwelling inside their body. That is why the tense of the word is perfect - past and done. It's a done deal.

I am not asking you to believe this as I can't do that, but do you at least see that is what this verse says?

we-live-now

[myth-one.com]

The bible is very clear that once a person believes, they have already fully passed out of death and into eternal life.

At the Second Coming, "deceased" Christians are resurrected to everlasting life:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

Why resurrect them if they already possess everlasting life? Do they need two everlasting spiritual bodies?

And given your fictitious scenario, what happens to former Christians?

That is, suppose one is a Christian, then denies Christ and becomes a nonbeliever, then dies. That human will not be resurrected to everlasting life at the Second Coming because He or she did not die as a believer. Only the believers are resurrected at the Second Coming.

If the gift of everlasting life is granted at the time one accepts Jesus as one's Savior, then many nonbelievers end up with the reward of the saved.

How does that work?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I ask ye We-live-now, what happeneth to he that heareth Jesus's word, and believeth on him that sent Jesus, and hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life -- upon then denying Jesus?

And here's another problem with your interpretation:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40)

There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and they do not mix.

And that makes sense. If one has a spiritual body, why would one also need or desire a natural physical body? That would be a handicapped spirit!

Here is one characteristic of the spiritual body:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Have you identified one "born again Christian" who can move as the wind? If not, then none of them have been born again of the Spirit.

Conclusion: There are presently no "born again" Christians. All mankind has been born once, and only once, as natural physical mortal beings!

And all verses which you believe state otherwise -- simply looked at from God's point of view indicate that mankind is said to sleep, slumber, or rest after their "first" death.

Thus a living mortal Christian will live forever -- as he simply rests in his grave awaiting being born again of the Spirit at the Second Coming!

[we-live-now]

Myth, you and I are so far apart in so many things I don't know if we can come any closer. I have been around hundreds of Christians of various denominations and have never heard the doctrine that you teach. I have studied the bible many times for hundreds if not thousands of hours and not once has this doctrine even occurred to me or anyone in the Churches I have been a member of. You seem to be the only one that believes this. That makes it very suspect to me.

You seem to think that we are our bodies, but we simply are not. Our bodies are only our container and perhaps that is why you can't see what the verses are clearly saying? As a new creation believer, we are a spirit being who has a soul who lives in a body. Right now, we are living in the body we received in Adam, but we are brand new spirit beings who have passed over into eternal life already. Basically, we are a new creation spiritual being in Christ yet still in the "shell" or body of Adam. We get our new bodies at the first resurrection. There simply is no way you can read John 5:24 and believe anything else. It clearly says we already have eternal life, now. If you don't believe this that it is ok. The resurrection is only about raising our natural bodies up and they being changed from perishable and mortal to imperishable and immortal/spiritual.

Regarding "soul sleep". Scripture clearly says in 2 Cor 5:8 that once we die, we leave our bodies and go to be with the Lord.

"we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

Look at the ORIGINAL Greek words. They say that once we die, we leave the body and go "to be in one's own country, to be at home" with the Lord. Check the word out yourself at this link: http://biblesuite.com/greek/1736.htm.

Sorry, there is simply no way around this as it is really clear that once we die, we don't go to sleep in the grave somehow, we immediately go to be with the Lord if we believe. That is also why it says that when Jesus returns the first time "he will bring WITH him those who have already died before us".

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

When Jesus returns for the first resurrection, he will have WITH HIM all the believers whow have already died. How could he do that if they are in their graves "sleeping"? This one verse exposes soul sleep as totally false! Clearly, when a believer dies, they immediately leave their bodies and go to be at home with Christ and then return with him at the first resurrection. I'd give up on that soul sleep idea because scripture doesn't support that. However, to be fair, from a body (not soul) perspective when our body dies God does say it is "sleeping" when it is in the grave. That I do find to be biblical. But, this is our body only and NOT the real us who is a spirit being that is FULLY CONSCIOUS once it leaves the body to be with the Lord. Look at Rev 20:4 below, we can clearly see and recognize the souls who have died but have not yet received their immortal bodies. They are not sleeping.

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This verse clearly shows that the souls of the Saints who were killed for Christ were WITH HIM on the thrones before they had received their glorified bodies (came to life in the physical realm) to reign with Christ during the millennial kingdom. If this were after the first resurrection, they would have ALREADY had their immortal bodies, but they didn't. They were just souls without bodies. Once they "came to life" in first resurrection and appeared in the physical realm, then they had received their bodies.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.

They were not sleeping in their graves.

Sorry, you may have a lot invested in the soul sleep doctrine, but it clearly is not supported in scripture. Scripture clearly says that we go to be with the Lord as soon as we die and leave our bodies and that we are in Heaven on or near his thrones before we receive our new bodies. Actually, a believer is really there in Heaven right now! Only their body is yet on earth. That is how beautiful it is. We are now "foreigners" here on earth once we believe.

And given your fictitious scenario, what happens to former Christians?

Also, I don't want to make this message too long, but it is a total and complete lie that a person can become a believer (new spiritual creation) and then somehow go back to being in Adam (former believers)! It's impossible because GOD HAS DONE ALL THE WORK AND WE DID NONE OF IT so it can't be undone by us! See 1 Cor 1:30 as it's plain as DAY! We can not become "unborn" as it's IMPOSSIBLE! However, you won't see this either because you don't understand or see the new creation. You are living and teaching out of the old creation in Adam. I could show you even MORE scripture to show you this, but God has not even revealed to you the new creation yet so it would not be beneficial. You are not open to seeing the new creation for some reason??? I don't understand that, it's BEAUTIFUL and it's HERE NOW right inside us revealed the Holy Spirit in us!

God bless,

we-live-now

[we-live-now]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

Myth, I am reading your website to try to understand your beliefs better.

we-live-now

[myth-one.com]

I have studied the bible many times for hundreds if not thousands of hours and not once has this doctrine even occurred to me or anyone in the Churches I have been a member of.

The scriptures are sealed from your understanding:

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot for it is sealed: (Isaiah 29:11)

The scriptures are "sealed up" until the end times. Even the twelve apostles did not understand the scriptures until Jesus opened their understanding shortly before ascending into heaven:

Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:45)

Why then should we expect today's theologians to understand them? Although the scriptures are sealed up from our understanding, God left a gaping hole in His security system! Consider what Jesus states regarding prayer:

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matthew 21:22)

Therefore, each time before you begin reading the Bible, you should first get on your knees and pray, asking God to open your understanding of the scriptures, believing that He will do so!

As a new creation believer, we are a spirit being who has a soul who lives in a body.

The Bible calls that blasphemy. God is a Spirit. You are not:

God is a Spirit:

Sorry, there is simply no way around this as it is really clear that once we die, we don't go to sleep in the grave somehow, we immediately go to be with the Lord if we believe.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

Yes, He will meet them in the air.

Also, I don't want to make this message too long, but it is a total and complete lie that a person can become a believer (new spiritual creation) and then somehow go back to being in Adam (former believers)!

You're calling every "former Christian" a lier?

[we-live-now]

I have studied the bible many times for hundreds if not thousands of hours and not once has this doctrine even occurred to me or anyone in the Churches I have been a member of.

The scriptures are sealed from your understanding:

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot for it is sealed: (Isaiah 29:11)

The scriptures are "sealed up" until the end times. Even the twelve apostles did not understand the scriptures until Jesus opened their understanding shortly before ascending into heaven:

Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:45)

Why then should we expect today's theologians to understand them? Although the scriptures are sealed up from our understanding, God left a gaping hole in His security system! Consider what Jesus states regarding prayer:

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matthew 21:22)

Therefore, each time before you begin reading the Bible, you should first get on your knees and pray, asking God to open your understanding of the scriptures, believing that He will do so!

As a new creation believer, we are a spirit being who has a soul who lives in a body.

The Bible calls that blasphemy. God is a Spirit. You are not:

God is a Spirit:

Sorry, there is simply no way around this as it is really clear that once we die, we don't go to sleep in the grave somehow, we immediately go to be with the Lord if we believe.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

Yes, He will meet them in the air.

Also, I don't want to make this message too long, but it is a total and complete lie that a person can become a believer (new spiritual creation) and then somehow go back to being in Adam (former believers)!

You're calling every "former Christian" a lier?

Myth, I have read a good portion of your book on your website. Rather than me going and addressing your points in the last post, let me share some other thoughts to see where we agree. First, I want to applaud you for all your effort to spread your beliefs to others and save mothers from killing their children so they go to Heaven before they become old enough to reject God according to the (possibly false) age of accountability doctrine. I too, believe that the true Gospel is MUCH better than we were ever taught or told and that God truly is "LOVE" as he defines himself in 1 John 4:8! Also, I too feel that Love does not eternally punish us for not loving it back. I am with you on that. I also agree with what you said about many Pastors just teaching what they were taught or believe even though it is not scriptural. I too, have run into that in my own church and I think we ALL can be guilty of that, I know I can. Many however, when confronted, often won't even have a discussion on scripture or immediately go to another verse that seems to support their own private interpretation. I believe we should always be open to what the Holy Spirit wants to reveal to us even if it goes against our current beliefs.

Also, I do see your logic in this one doctrine that if children go to heaven before the age of accountability, why not kill them? Crazy. I simply was not aware of that being a problem, but can see now how it could be. Thank you for making people aware of that doctrine so they hopefully seek the Lord for the truth.

So, if I may let me stick to one concept in this post. I have a question for you.

If a Christian can lose their salvation and become an unbeliever, wouldn't it make sense to just KILL them or even OURSELVES as soon as they/we believe?

we-live-now

[keithprosser3]

wouldn't it make sense to just KILL them or even OURSELVES as soon as they/we believe?

Bit risky if you're not sure.

[myth-one.com]

wouldn't it make sense to just KILL them or even OURSELVES as soon as they/we believe?

Bit risky if you're not sure.

Mankind is God's plan for creating replacement earthly caretakers for the angels who rebelled. God only wants those who are sure they want Him. We are here to get a taste of life before possibly being granted everlasting life.

Once granted, there is no way out of everlasting life!

One needs to be sure that eternal life is right for him or her.

Accepting Christ, then rejecting Him should always be a valid option. There is nothing wrong with those decisions. If life doesn't suit someone for whatever reason, it's better to die a second death, than to be risk unhappiness for eternity!

Who are we to prematurely terminate anyone's short physical life and decision making process regarding believing or not believing?

Once one actually understands the true fate of nonbelievers, one should recognize how totally ridiculous and sinful this idea is. Nonbelievers simply perish, never to live again.

Neither innocent children nor new adult believers should be killed during a time which "guarantees" their salvation.

Salvation is a personal decision for each individual, no one person can decide for another. And that includes infants. Mrs, Yates did not succeed in sending her innocent children to Heaven! Her children will make their own decision. All she accomplished was taking their lives from all of us.

Let everyone live our short first physical lives in peace, the freedom to choose, and pro life.

Thou shalt not kill.

[we-live-now]

God only wants those who are sure they want Him.

I don't believe there is any scripture to support this.

What kind of love only wants/accepts those who are sure they want him? I don't believe that is love nor what the Bible teaches is love. That is favoritism which is evil.

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Sorry, but your view of love doesn't line up with what the Bible says is love and you must rethink that idea to make it line up with the truth in scripture.

It clearly says "Love NEVER fails!". Since God is "LOVE", thus GOD NEVER FAILS! The God that you believe in DOES FAIL because MOST of his creation that HE MADE DIES FOREVER! THAT, my friend is a COMPLETE and UTTER FAILURE!

I am very sorry to report that Your God is a FAILURE!

we-live-now