I have heard Christian Evangelicals and Fundamentalists use the phrase that to be saved, one must have a "personal relationship with Jesus" or is one to have a "personal relationship with God THROUGH Jesus" and they say that is what it means to be a Christian.
But it seems to me that ANYONE who prays on their own, (as opposed to only in a congregation) has a personal relationship with God.
Questions for debate,
a) Which is necessary to be a Christian, a "personal relationship with Jesus"? or is it a "personal relationship with God THROUGH Jesus"? Clarification requested here.
and
b) must one be a go through Christ to have a "personal relationship with God" or is a relationship with God available to ALL who pray sincerely,directly and individually to Him? WITHOUT a mediator? Isn't prayer and embracing God's will, (in and of itself) "relationship"?
What does it mean...
Moderator: Moderators
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12236
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
What does it mean...
Post #1 My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12236
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Post #11
[Replying to post 9 by McCulloch]
I think I agree, that conversation (and relationship) is a two way street. It certainly involves listening, and just for the record, I am not talking about literal "hearing voices". I see the listening part is that God speaks through inner impressions to the one who prays, and realizations.
Also, the listening part involves being willing to do God's will, to meditate on His commandments and Word.
Where I differ from Fundamentalists, is that I do not accept everything contained in the Bible as God's Word. I also believe God speaks to us through Reason, to put it another way, for me listening involves God "saying" to me through Reason, inner impressions and realizations, "Yes, I did say that" (Golden Rule etc) "No I never said that" (snake handling verses etc.). But that admittedly is anthropomorphizing the process a bit.
I think I agree, that conversation (and relationship) is a two way street. It certainly involves listening, and just for the record, I am not talking about literal "hearing voices". I see the listening part is that God speaks through inner impressions to the one who prays, and realizations.
Also, the listening part involves being willing to do God's will, to meditate on His commandments and Word.
Where I differ from Fundamentalists, is that I do not accept everything contained in the Bible as God's Word. I also believe God speaks to us through Reason, to put it another way, for me listening involves God "saying" to me through Reason, inner impressions and realizations, "Yes, I did say that" (Golden Rule etc) "No I never said that" (snake handling verses etc.). But that admittedly is anthropomorphizing the process a bit.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Overcomer
- Guru
- Posts: 1330
- Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
- Location: Canada
- Has thanked: 32 times
- Been thanked: 66 times
Post #12
I apologize for not getting to this thread sooner as I expect I am one of the people you are talking about re: having a relationship with God. I know I have mentioned it in a number of places. I only have a limited amount of time to spend here and there are so many threads to participate in that I can't keep up with them all, but I finally made it to this one!
The whole Bible, from start to finish, demonstrates God's relationship with people. It starts in Genesis when he talks with Adam and Eve. In chapter 3, verse 8, it speaks about them hearing God walking in the Garden. This is usually considered to be a pre-Incarnate appearance of Jesus on earth.
We see his relationships with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, all of the prophets from Isaiah through to Malachi, and with kings such as David and Solomon.
God created human beings to be in a relationship with him. Given the fact that he is a Trinity, that is, a God who exists in three persons, he is, obviously, a relational God. Look at what the Bible says about his relationship with Moses:
"The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend" (Ex. 33:11). The Hebrew idiom translated as "face to face" does not mean that Moses physically looked into the face of God. It means that he communed with God on intimate terms.
By the same token, Abraham was called the friend of God (Is. 41:8; James 2:23).
David's psalms -- too many of them to list here -- say much about his relationship with the Lord -- the strength and comfort he took from it, the peace and joy that he found in it, etc.
Communication with the Lord in the Old Testament worked both ways. God spoke his words to the prophets who in turn spoke them to the people. The priests spoke to God on behalf of the people. The Bible is full of "Thus saith the Lord . . . " quotations from God himself.
He communicated in different ways with different people. For example, he spoke to Solomon in a dream recorded in 1 Kings 3:5-15:
"5At Gibeon the Lord appeared to Solomon during the night in a dream, and God said, Ask for whatever you want me to give you.
6 Solomon answered, You have shown great kindness to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and righteous and upright in heart. You have continued this great kindness to him and have given him a son to sit on his throne this very day.
7 Now, Lord my God, you have made your servant king in place of my father David. But I am only a little child and do not know how to carry out my duties. 8 Your servant is here among the people you have chosen, a great people, too numerous to count or number. 9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?
10 The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. 11 So God said to him, Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, 12 I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be. 13 Moreover, I will give you what you have not asked for"both wealth and honor"so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings. 14 And if you walk in obedience to me and keep my decrees and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life. 15 Then Solomon awoke"and he realized it had been a dream."
I have had God speak to me in dreams and I know others who have had him speak to them in dreams, too. Interestingly, in Muslim countries where it is against the law to witness about Jesus, God often initiates conversations about him through dreams and visions, proving that he doesn't need people to speak for him although he often gives them the privilege of doing so.
Of course, in the New Testament, Christ, as God Incarnate, walked the earth. He made relationships with the disciples, Lazarus and his sisters, Mary and Martha, etc. And when he told his disciples that he would have to leave them, he promised them that he would send the Holy Spirit. He says:
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--" (John 14:16). What's interesting is the phrase "another advocate", meaning that the Holy Spirit would be to us just what he was to the disciples and his followers who knew him while he was on earth. It is through the Holy Spirit that we are able to have a relationship with God in heaven.
You are correct, Elijah John, when you talk about a person having "inner impressions". The Holy Spirit speaks to the believer's spirit. God can communicate through the Bible, through Christian writers, through sermons, through music, through drama, etc.
I have had him speak to me through secular movies and television shows. That was when I was going through a period of tremendous anger with him following a really bad car accident. I wasn't reading my Bible or praying. But I was sitting like a lump, in a lot of pain, watching television most of the time so he spoke to me through what I was watching. I wasn't going to where he was so he came to me.
You are also right when you talk about the use of reason. He expects us to apply our minds to our pursuit of him and our study of his Word.
And look at the verb "know" as it is used in this passage from the seventh chapter of Matthew:
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
The word Jesus uses that is translated as "knew" carries a connotation of deep intimate knowledge and a personal relationship. Jesus is saying that there may be many people who use his name and even serve in ministry, but not all of them will have known him personally and if they haven't been in a relationship with him, then they will not enter heaven.
Getting such a relationship begins when one's recognition of sins, confession of them and, most importantly, repentance of them, and the acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour. There's nothing special about anybody who enters into such a relationship. It isn't based on intelligence or goodness or anything like that. The worst reprobate in the world can enter into a relationship with the Lord. Paul, in fact, referred to himself as "the worst of sinners" (1 Tim. 1:15) -- and he was! He spent a lot of time tracking down Christians and putting them to death before his conversion on the road to Damascus.
And Jesus accepted me! That's more proof that you don't have to be perfect to connect with God. You just have to be sincere and willing.
The whole Bible, from start to finish, demonstrates God's relationship with people. It starts in Genesis when he talks with Adam and Eve. In chapter 3, verse 8, it speaks about them hearing God walking in the Garden. This is usually considered to be a pre-Incarnate appearance of Jesus on earth.
We see his relationships with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, all of the prophets from Isaiah through to Malachi, and with kings such as David and Solomon.
God created human beings to be in a relationship with him. Given the fact that he is a Trinity, that is, a God who exists in three persons, he is, obviously, a relational God. Look at what the Bible says about his relationship with Moses:
"The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend" (Ex. 33:11). The Hebrew idiom translated as "face to face" does not mean that Moses physically looked into the face of God. It means that he communed with God on intimate terms.
By the same token, Abraham was called the friend of God (Is. 41:8; James 2:23).
David's psalms -- too many of them to list here -- say much about his relationship with the Lord -- the strength and comfort he took from it, the peace and joy that he found in it, etc.
Communication with the Lord in the Old Testament worked both ways. God spoke his words to the prophets who in turn spoke them to the people. The priests spoke to God on behalf of the people. The Bible is full of "Thus saith the Lord . . . " quotations from God himself.
He communicated in different ways with different people. For example, he spoke to Solomon in a dream recorded in 1 Kings 3:5-15:
"5At Gibeon the Lord appeared to Solomon during the night in a dream, and God said, Ask for whatever you want me to give you.
6 Solomon answered, You have shown great kindness to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and righteous and upright in heart. You have continued this great kindness to him and have given him a son to sit on his throne this very day.
7 Now, Lord my God, you have made your servant king in place of my father David. But I am only a little child and do not know how to carry out my duties. 8 Your servant is here among the people you have chosen, a great people, too numerous to count or number. 9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?
10 The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. 11 So God said to him, Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, 12 I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be. 13 Moreover, I will give you what you have not asked for"both wealth and honor"so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings. 14 And if you walk in obedience to me and keep my decrees and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life. 15 Then Solomon awoke"and he realized it had been a dream."
I have had God speak to me in dreams and I know others who have had him speak to them in dreams, too. Interestingly, in Muslim countries where it is against the law to witness about Jesus, God often initiates conversations about him through dreams and visions, proving that he doesn't need people to speak for him although he often gives them the privilege of doing so.
Of course, in the New Testament, Christ, as God Incarnate, walked the earth. He made relationships with the disciples, Lazarus and his sisters, Mary and Martha, etc. And when he told his disciples that he would have to leave them, he promised them that he would send the Holy Spirit. He says:
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--" (John 14:16). What's interesting is the phrase "another advocate", meaning that the Holy Spirit would be to us just what he was to the disciples and his followers who knew him while he was on earth. It is through the Holy Spirit that we are able to have a relationship with God in heaven.
You are correct, Elijah John, when you talk about a person having "inner impressions". The Holy Spirit speaks to the believer's spirit. God can communicate through the Bible, through Christian writers, through sermons, through music, through drama, etc.
I have had him speak to me through secular movies and television shows. That was when I was going through a period of tremendous anger with him following a really bad car accident. I wasn't reading my Bible or praying. But I was sitting like a lump, in a lot of pain, watching television most of the time so he spoke to me through what I was watching. I wasn't going to where he was so he came to me.
You are also right when you talk about the use of reason. He expects us to apply our minds to our pursuit of him and our study of his Word.
And look at the verb "know" as it is used in this passage from the seventh chapter of Matthew:
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
The word Jesus uses that is translated as "knew" carries a connotation of deep intimate knowledge and a personal relationship. Jesus is saying that there may be many people who use his name and even serve in ministry, but not all of them will have known him personally and if they haven't been in a relationship with him, then they will not enter heaven.
Getting such a relationship begins when one's recognition of sins, confession of them and, most importantly, repentance of them, and the acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour. There's nothing special about anybody who enters into such a relationship. It isn't based on intelligence or goodness or anything like that. The worst reprobate in the world can enter into a relationship with the Lord. Paul, in fact, referred to himself as "the worst of sinners" (1 Tim. 1:15) -- and he was! He spent a lot of time tracking down Christians and putting them to death before his conversion on the road to Damascus.
And Jesus accepted me! That's more proof that you don't have to be perfect to connect with God. You just have to be sincere and willing.
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12236
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Post #13
[Replying to post 12 by Overcomer]
Hey, better late than never, right? Seriously, thanks for the post. You make a good case for your point of view.
We differ on a few counts, though.
When I hold that God speaks through Reason, and impressions and realizations when reading Scripture and praying, you would call that the working of the Holy Spirit.
Only thing is, you don't believe that the Holy Spirit works that way unless one has accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, correct?
That is one place where we differ. I think that point of view limits the Holy Spirit's working with only Christians, whereas I believe the Holy Spirit works for good in all, practitioners of other religions as well as in atheists and agnostics in the form of conscience.
I think the Holy Spirit is actually JHVH's Spirit, when He is immanent, among us and in us. The Trinity, and Jesus having to send the Spirit, is all artificial theological construction, imo.
So I would ask you this, why not just pray to and commune with God directly, I do not see where Jesus is essential for this. Why not call on JHVH directly, by name with all sincerity, reverence and humility? If so, one can still have a personal relationship with the Living God, no?
Jesus teachings, and the truth that he conveys that resonates within us, that is the listening part of conversation with God. But I would say that is one way to hear God, but not the ONLY way, as John 14.6 suggests. The book of Hebrews, for example, states that God spoke in various ways, and in these "final days" through a Son. But again, even in that NT book, the writer gives examples of God speaking to humanity in other ways, through other prophets.
But I would say that the theology of Jesus "dying for our sins" being part of the "Trinity" has nothing to do with our ability to commune with God and have a relationship with Him.
I agree that God speaks to us in varied ways, through events and dreams even, but I would add that Nature is also a very important source of revelation, at least to us Deists, ( and Christian Deists) the book of Creation can be read with the Divine gift or Reason, and one can come to a knowledge of God that way as well. Paul, in the first chapter of Romans, if I am not mistaken.
When one is immersed in a forest, and one is inspired with a feeling of gratitude, that is communication with God, is it not? The feeling of gratitude is in and of itself a prayer,( gratitude to Who, right? ) Even some avowed atheists and agnostics sometimes unconsiously use the phrase "thank God". And communication is relationship.
But it seems to me that any prayer, or communication with God is personal if one does so directly, privately or individually, as opposed to communally with a congregation.
I guess what I am asking is why is believing that Jesus is "Lord and Savior" is considered by Christians to be a "personal relationship" with God. Born Again
Christian's contrast this with a church-goers experience, but what exactly is the difference?
And regarding HOW God hears, and WHO He hears, I agree that one does not need to be perfect.
But according to the book of Proverbs, if one will not listen to the Law, then God will not listen to their prayer. So I think the difference is a lifestyle of habitual sin without repentance makes God unwilling to hear, and it is not any disbelief in the "blood atonement" of Jesus that makes God "deaf" to our prayers.
Hey, better late than never, right? Seriously, thanks for the post. You make a good case for your point of view.
We differ on a few counts, though.
When I hold that God speaks through Reason, and impressions and realizations when reading Scripture and praying, you would call that the working of the Holy Spirit.
Only thing is, you don't believe that the Holy Spirit works that way unless one has accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, correct?
That is one place where we differ. I think that point of view limits the Holy Spirit's working with only Christians, whereas I believe the Holy Spirit works for good in all, practitioners of other religions as well as in atheists and agnostics in the form of conscience.
I think the Holy Spirit is actually JHVH's Spirit, when He is immanent, among us and in us. The Trinity, and Jesus having to send the Spirit, is all artificial theological construction, imo.
So I would ask you this, why not just pray to and commune with God directly, I do not see where Jesus is essential for this. Why not call on JHVH directly, by name with all sincerity, reverence and humility? If so, one can still have a personal relationship with the Living God, no?
Jesus teachings, and the truth that he conveys that resonates within us, that is the listening part of conversation with God. But I would say that is one way to hear God, but not the ONLY way, as John 14.6 suggests. The book of Hebrews, for example, states that God spoke in various ways, and in these "final days" through a Son. But again, even in that NT book, the writer gives examples of God speaking to humanity in other ways, through other prophets.
But I would say that the theology of Jesus "dying for our sins" being part of the "Trinity" has nothing to do with our ability to commune with God and have a relationship with Him.
I agree that God speaks to us in varied ways, through events and dreams even, but I would add that Nature is also a very important source of revelation, at least to us Deists, ( and Christian Deists) the book of Creation can be read with the Divine gift or Reason, and one can come to a knowledge of God that way as well. Paul, in the first chapter of Romans, if I am not mistaken.
When one is immersed in a forest, and one is inspired with a feeling of gratitude, that is communication with God, is it not? The feeling of gratitude is in and of itself a prayer,( gratitude to Who, right? ) Even some avowed atheists and agnostics sometimes unconsiously use the phrase "thank God". And communication is relationship.
But it seems to me that any prayer, or communication with God is personal if one does so directly, privately or individually, as opposed to communally with a congregation.
I guess what I am asking is why is believing that Jesus is "Lord and Savior" is considered by Christians to be a "personal relationship" with God. Born Again
Christian's contrast this with a church-goers experience, but what exactly is the difference?
And regarding HOW God hears, and WHO He hears, I agree that one does not need to be perfect.
But according to the book of Proverbs, if one will not listen to the Law, then God will not listen to their prayer. So I think the difference is a lifestyle of habitual sin without repentance makes God unwilling to hear, and it is not any disbelief in the "blood atonement" of Jesus that makes God "deaf" to our prayers.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Choir Loft
- Banned
- Posts: 547
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:57 am
- Location: Tampa
Re: What does it mean...
Post #14Elijah John wrote: I have heard Christian Evangelicals and Fundamentalists use the phrase that to be saved, one must have a "personal relationship with Jesus" or is one to have a "personal relationship with God THROUGH Jesus" and they say that is what it means to be a Christian.
But it seems to me that ANYONE who prays on their own, (as opposed to only in a congregation) has a personal relationship with God.
Questions for debate,
a) Which is necessary to be a Christian, a "personal relationship with Jesus"? or is it a "personal relationship with God THROUGH Jesus"? Clarification requested here.
and
b) must one be a go through Christ to have a "personal relationship with God" or is a relationship with God available to ALL who pray sincerely,directly and individually to Him? WITHOUT a mediator? Isn't prayer and embracing God's will, (in and of itself) "relationship"?
Your basic assumption that prayer automatically results in a personal relationship with God is wrong. Ergo, some other method must be employed to discover it.
First - how is your basic assumption wrong?
A personal relationship with God is a rare thing. As proof I challenge the reader to explore the other major religions of planet Earth. Start with Islam.
Islam, the largest fastest growing religion on the planet, does not claim its adherents will have any relationship with Allah whatsoever. In fact, the basic assertion of Islam is that only Mohammad (pbuh) has had such a relationship. There are some denominations of Islam that seek it devoutly such as the Sufis, but it is not generally recognized as a thing obtainable in life or in death.
The eastern religions such as Hindi and Buddhism vary in their definition of 'knowing'. The average Buddhist believes that life is an experience in frustration and that its up to man to deal with it. Certain spiritual 'guides' are sought to assist in this pilgrimage, but this does by no means imply any relationship or even knowledge of the Most High.
Hinduism has millions of gods. Take your pick and believe you can 'know' one or two, but again there is no suggestion of 'knowing' the Supreme Being. All the spiritual exercise is at a low level so to speak.
Jews believe in knowing God by means of exercise of divine laws and ordinances. It's become a religion of works despite the fact it's the only religion that has recorded in it's own book the beginnings of God's direct revelation of Himself to man. The unfortunate result in a religion of works - any religion - is that one can never be really certain that one has done all that is necessary to please God and earn an eternal reward. There is always a nagging doubt that some small thing or deed has been overlooked.
Second, how can a personal relationship with God be obtained?
Enter Jesus Christ.
Jesus said, "unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God".
There are numerous references to the second birth and the necessity of a man to be born again. Suffice it to say that the second birth, by means of its nature results in a personal relationship with God because it is of God in the first place. Nothing a man does can acquire this relationship.
With one exception, God does not hear the prayer - any prayer - of the unregenerate sinner. That single exception is the prayer of repentance. God has demonstrated in His Word as well as in the experience of millions of lives that the very first encounter with God MUST occur as a result of repentance. This is the first step for anyone.
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
1 Co 2:14
"...'as I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Wy then will you die"
- Ezekiel 33:11
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:2
"Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;"
- Act 3:19
The prayer of repentance will be heard by God. He has promised. Repentance leads to the second birth and the second birth results in a personal relationship with God because the spiritually regenerate has become part of God and God has become part of him.
All things have a beginning and a result. In the spiritual world, a personal relationship with God begins with repentance, proceeds with the acceptance of Jesus Christ and the second birth and ends with assurance that one's relationship depends upon Christ NOT man. This is the good news (the gospel) granted to man. Man cannot work his way to God, but God has come to man in the person of Jesus Christ.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
R.I.P. AMERICAN REPUBLIC
[June 21, 1788 - October 26, 2001]
- Here lies Liberty -
Born in the spring,
died in the fall.
Stabbed in the back,
forsaken by all.
[June 21, 1788 - October 26, 2001]
- Here lies Liberty -
Born in the spring,
died in the fall.
Stabbed in the back,
forsaken by all.
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12236
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: What does it mean...
Post #15[/quote]s from Choir Loft:
Your basic assumption that prayer automatically results in a personal relationship with God is wrong. Ergo, some other method must be employed to discover it.
-----------------------------
EJ responds: A sincere heart. Because no one can seek God unless God calls, right? If someone even cares enough try to approach God, it is because God is calling, otherwise the seeker wouldn't even care.
--------------------------------
First - how is your basic assumption wrong?
A personal relationship with God is a rare thing. As proof I challenge the reader to explore the other major religions of planet Earth. Start with Islam.
-------------------------------------
EJ responds: I should make the distinction between a personal relationship and a prophetic one. The prophetic one is closer, more direct.
Also, prayer is a two way street. Effective prayer consists of listening too. To God's inner promptings, realizations and impressions, as well as meditation on His Word or His Law.
-------------------------------
The eastern religions such as Hindi and Buddhism vary in their definition of 'knowing'. The average Buddhist believes that life is an experience in frustration and that its up to man to deal with it. Certain spiritual 'guides' are sought to assist in this pilgrimage, but this does by no means imply any relationship or even knowledge of the Most High.
Hinduism has millions of gods. Take your pick and believe you can 'know' one or two, but again there is no suggestion of 'knowing' the Supreme Being. All the spiritual exercise is at a low level so to speak.
------------------------------------
EJ responds: Don't really care what most Eastern religions teach, primary focus for me is the Western way.
---------------------------------------
Jews believe in knowing God by means of exercise of divine laws and ordinances. It's become a religion of works despite the fact it's the only religion that has recorded in it's own book the beginnings of God's direct revelation of Himself to man. The unfortunate result in a religion of works - any religion - is that one can never be really certain that one has done all that is necessary to please God and earn an eternal reward. There is always a nagging doubt that some small thing or deed has been overlooked.
------------------------------------
E.J. responds: do you consider worshiping JHVH alone, not making idols and worshiping them and not taking JHVH's name in vain to be "works"? How about "lovingkindness" and "walking humbly with thy God" (Micah 6.8) works?
And if Salvation is through faith alone, speaking of nagging doubts, how can one ever be sure that one's level of faith is a "saving faith"? Jesus himself quantifies faith. If you had enough, faith the size of a mustard seed,, you would be able to uproot bushes and tell them to toss themselves into the sea, right? But if anyone has any doubts, is that enough for a "saving faith"?
Also, in the book of Proverbs it is written that if one turns his ear from the hearing of the LAW, even one's prayer becomes an abomination. So isn't "Law" simply the expression of Divine will?
------------------------------------
Second, how can a personal relationship with God be obtained?
Enter Jesus Christ.
Jesus said, "unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God".
There are numerous references to the second birth and the necessity of a man to be born again. Suffice it to say that the second birth, by means of its nature results in a personal relationship with God because it is of God in the first place. Nothing a man does can acquire this relationship.
----------------------------------------------------------
E.J. responds: Isn't being "born again" just a metaphor for being commited to a Godly way of life?
----------------------------------------------------------
With one exception, God does not hear the prayer - any prayer - of the unregenerate sinner. That single exception is the prayer of repentance. God has demonstrated in His Word as well as in the experience of millions of lives that the very first encounter with God MUST occur as a result of repentance. This is the first step for anyone.
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
1 Co 2:14
"...'as I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Wy then will you die"
- Ezekiel 33:11
-------------------------------------------
E J responds: Ezekiel is talking about sincere repentance alone, turning. No mention of Jesus at all, and no mention of the necessitity of belief in the coming messiah.
-----------------------------------------------------
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:2
-----------------------------------------------
E J reponds: Yes, sin is separating from God, nothing about unbelief in Jesus, or unbelief in the so called "coming messiah".
-----------------------------------------------
"Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;"
- Act 3:19
The prayer of repentance will be heard by God. He has promised. Repentance leads to the second birth and the second birth results in a personal relationship with God because the spiritually regenerate has become part of God and God has become part of him.
--------------------------------------------------
E J; responds: Again, sincere repentence. Even here in the NT that seems to be
enough.
-----------------------------------
All things have a beginning and a result. In the spiritual world, a personal relationship with God begins with repentance, proceeds with the acceptance of Jesus Christ and the second birth and ends with assurance that one's relationship depends upon Christ NOT man. This is the good news (the gospel) granted to man. Man cannot work his way to God, but God has come to man in the person of Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
-----------------------------------
E J; responds: Well I disagree with your interpretation of the Gospel Jesus doesnt say it depends on his impending death on the cross, but he announces the Gospel at the begininng of Luke with his reading of the Isaiah scroll, being anointed to preach the news of liberation of the poor and oppressed, the outcast from society, the the healing of the sick, and the impending arrival of the Kingdom.
Then in the Beattitudes, (which are in the form of announcements of the Good News) Jesus enumerated the values of the Kingdom, and the promises attatched to those values.
--------------------------------------------s
Your basic assumption that prayer automatically results in a personal relationship with God is wrong. Ergo, some other method must be employed to discover it.
-----------------------------
EJ responds: A sincere heart. Because no one can seek God unless God calls, right? If someone even cares enough try to approach God, it is because God is calling, otherwise the seeker wouldn't even care.
--------------------------------
First - how is your basic assumption wrong?
A personal relationship with God is a rare thing. As proof I challenge the reader to explore the other major religions of planet Earth. Start with Islam.
-------------------------------------
EJ responds: I should make the distinction between a personal relationship and a prophetic one. The prophetic one is closer, more direct.
Also, prayer is a two way street. Effective prayer consists of listening too. To God's inner promptings, realizations and impressions, as well as meditation on His Word or His Law.
-------------------------------
The eastern religions such as Hindi and Buddhism vary in their definition of 'knowing'. The average Buddhist believes that life is an experience in frustration and that its up to man to deal with it. Certain spiritual 'guides' are sought to assist in this pilgrimage, but this does by no means imply any relationship or even knowledge of the Most High.
Hinduism has millions of gods. Take your pick and believe you can 'know' one or two, but again there is no suggestion of 'knowing' the Supreme Being. All the spiritual exercise is at a low level so to speak.
------------------------------------
EJ responds: Don't really care what most Eastern religions teach, primary focus for me is the Western way.
---------------------------------------
Jews believe in knowing God by means of exercise of divine laws and ordinances. It's become a religion of works despite the fact it's the only religion that has recorded in it's own book the beginnings of God's direct revelation of Himself to man. The unfortunate result in a religion of works - any religion - is that one can never be really certain that one has done all that is necessary to please God and earn an eternal reward. There is always a nagging doubt that some small thing or deed has been overlooked.
------------------------------------
E.J. responds: do you consider worshiping JHVH alone, not making idols and worshiping them and not taking JHVH's name in vain to be "works"? How about "lovingkindness" and "walking humbly with thy God" (Micah 6.8) works?
And if Salvation is through faith alone, speaking of nagging doubts, how can one ever be sure that one's level of faith is a "saving faith"? Jesus himself quantifies faith. If you had enough, faith the size of a mustard seed,, you would be able to uproot bushes and tell them to toss themselves into the sea, right? But if anyone has any doubts, is that enough for a "saving faith"?
Also, in the book of Proverbs it is written that if one turns his ear from the hearing of the LAW, even one's prayer becomes an abomination. So isn't "Law" simply the expression of Divine will?
------------------------------------
Second, how can a personal relationship with God be obtained?
Enter Jesus Christ.
Jesus said, "unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God".
There are numerous references to the second birth and the necessity of a man to be born again. Suffice it to say that the second birth, by means of its nature results in a personal relationship with God because it is of God in the first place. Nothing a man does can acquire this relationship.
----------------------------------------------------------
E.J. responds: Isn't being "born again" just a metaphor for being commited to a Godly way of life?
----------------------------------------------------------
With one exception, God does not hear the prayer - any prayer - of the unregenerate sinner. That single exception is the prayer of repentance. God has demonstrated in His Word as well as in the experience of millions of lives that the very first encounter with God MUST occur as a result of repentance. This is the first step for anyone.
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
1 Co 2:14
"...'as I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Wy then will you die"
- Ezekiel 33:11
-------------------------------------------
E J responds: Ezekiel is talking about sincere repentance alone, turning. No mention of Jesus at all, and no mention of the necessitity of belief in the coming messiah.
-----------------------------------------------------
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:2
-----------------------------------------------
E J reponds: Yes, sin is separating from God, nothing about unbelief in Jesus, or unbelief in the so called "coming messiah".
-----------------------------------------------
"Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;"
- Act 3:19
The prayer of repentance will be heard by God. He has promised. Repentance leads to the second birth and the second birth results in a personal relationship with God because the spiritually regenerate has become part of God and God has become part of him.
--------------------------------------------------
E J; responds: Again, sincere repentence. Even here in the NT that seems to be
enough.
-----------------------------------
All things have a beginning and a result. In the spiritual world, a personal relationship with God begins with repentance, proceeds with the acceptance of Jesus Christ and the second birth and ends with assurance that one's relationship depends upon Christ NOT man. This is the good news (the gospel) granted to man. Man cannot work his way to God, but God has come to man in the person of Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
-----------------------------------
E J; responds: Well I disagree with your interpretation of the Gospel Jesus doesnt say it depends on his impending death on the cross, but he announces the Gospel at the begininng of Luke with his reading of the Isaiah scroll, being anointed to preach the news of liberation of the poor and oppressed, the outcast from society, the the healing of the sick, and the impending arrival of the Kingdom.
Then in the Beattitudes, (which are in the form of announcements of the Good News) Jesus enumerated the values of the Kingdom, and the promises attatched to those values.
--------------------------------------------s
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Choir Loft
- Banned
- Posts: 547
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:57 am
- Location: Tampa
Re: What does it mean...
Post #16[Replying to Elijah John]
Your objections are noted. Sadly you have missed the point completely.
You take the position that meditation and some sort of abstract method of appreciation of God is sufficient. I submit, sir that your point of view is entirely wrong from the Biblical sense, from the spiritual sense and from the personal sense. You are approaching the subject with a double mind and no man with a double mind will accomplish anything either on earth or in heaven.
Prophetic vs. Personal
You expressed the opinion that a prophetic relationship to God is superior to a personal one. Are you married? Do you have anyone in your life with whom you share intimate moments? Would you describe those moments as personal or prophetic? It's personal for most of the world.
Do you not know the difference between prophetic and personal? The OT was prophetic and the NT is personal. God came to earth PERSONALLY to reveal His way to a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP. Intimacy is far superior to ceremony. When you are with someone do you meditate or appreciate? One is prophetic and the other is personal. Most people find the personal much more satisfying. I know I do.
Far east vs. Near at hand
You stated that you weren't interested in my example of far eastern religions, yet this is exactly the position you've take in regard to Christ. This is the double minded standard I referred to earlier. This is the confusion that traps you in your argument.
I also included Judaism in that group did you notice? The reason I did that was to illustrate the frustration of meditation, abstraction and sincerity. All the far east religions attempt to seize the supernatural by means of these methods yet they fail miserably. None can guarantee salvation much less a personal relationship with the Most High. Only God can grant that. It is wholly impossible for man to rise to the occasion - to seize the moment as it were.
Sincerity vs. Salvation
All the sincerity and meditation in the world will gain you nothing. It may provide sufficient training to allow mental focus. It may in some instances accept spiritual visitation of demons and spirit guides (both the same) and it may thereby serve to elevate the man slightly into spiritual awareness, but it will not come close to approaching God and it will always result in disappointment and uncertainty if not overt danger.
Two minds vs. One
Your mind is wandering in at least two directions and deliberately so. Jesus said, "you must be saved" and He also said "unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God". It is the second birth which enables the personal relationship with God. Why? Because the second birth makes the man part of God and God part of the man.
Humanity has always sought its own path to God and always always failed in the attempt. From the tower of Babel to the WTC, from the ceremony and determination of Islam to the fallacy of the American ideology of exceptionalism and hegemony, none can approach the throne of God except the One who He chose - the man Jesus. And none can know God except those who accept Christ.
The Bible has clearly shown that humility and repentance is the path to knowing Christ. Sincerity, ceremony, hubris and arrogance cannot come close. Since God chose to assume humility Himself by becoming a baby born in Bethlehem, how can man approach the Humble One with any other attitude? Kneel before Him and accept His way as your own and you will be saved.
Intimate = personal. Not prophetic. Argue prophecy the next time you are intimate with someone and see how far it gets you. If it will not work at the human level why do you assume it will work with God? The Bible says over and over it will not.
You will never succeed in an intimate human relationship if you stand on ceremony alone. Neither will you know God without it. Ceremony and meditation will assist in appreciating the creation, but not the creator. Humble yourself and accept Christ who humbled Himself for you. Accept Him personally and He will accept you intimately.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft
Your objections are noted. Sadly you have missed the point completely.
You take the position that meditation and some sort of abstract method of appreciation of God is sufficient. I submit, sir that your point of view is entirely wrong from the Biblical sense, from the spiritual sense and from the personal sense. You are approaching the subject with a double mind and no man with a double mind will accomplish anything either on earth or in heaven.
Prophetic vs. Personal
You expressed the opinion that a prophetic relationship to God is superior to a personal one. Are you married? Do you have anyone in your life with whom you share intimate moments? Would you describe those moments as personal or prophetic? It's personal for most of the world.
Do you not know the difference between prophetic and personal? The OT was prophetic and the NT is personal. God came to earth PERSONALLY to reveal His way to a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP. Intimacy is far superior to ceremony. When you are with someone do you meditate or appreciate? One is prophetic and the other is personal. Most people find the personal much more satisfying. I know I do.
Far east vs. Near at hand
You stated that you weren't interested in my example of far eastern religions, yet this is exactly the position you've take in regard to Christ. This is the double minded standard I referred to earlier. This is the confusion that traps you in your argument.
I also included Judaism in that group did you notice? The reason I did that was to illustrate the frustration of meditation, abstraction and sincerity. All the far east religions attempt to seize the supernatural by means of these methods yet they fail miserably. None can guarantee salvation much less a personal relationship with the Most High. Only God can grant that. It is wholly impossible for man to rise to the occasion - to seize the moment as it were.
Sincerity vs. Salvation
All the sincerity and meditation in the world will gain you nothing. It may provide sufficient training to allow mental focus. It may in some instances accept spiritual visitation of demons and spirit guides (both the same) and it may thereby serve to elevate the man slightly into spiritual awareness, but it will not come close to approaching God and it will always result in disappointment and uncertainty if not overt danger.
Two minds vs. One
Your mind is wandering in at least two directions and deliberately so. Jesus said, "you must be saved" and He also said "unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God". It is the second birth which enables the personal relationship with God. Why? Because the second birth makes the man part of God and God part of the man.
Humanity has always sought its own path to God and always always failed in the attempt. From the tower of Babel to the WTC, from the ceremony and determination of Islam to the fallacy of the American ideology of exceptionalism and hegemony, none can approach the throne of God except the One who He chose - the man Jesus. And none can know God except those who accept Christ.
The Bible has clearly shown that humility and repentance is the path to knowing Christ. Sincerity, ceremony, hubris and arrogance cannot come close. Since God chose to assume humility Himself by becoming a baby born in Bethlehem, how can man approach the Humble One with any other attitude? Kneel before Him and accept His way as your own and you will be saved.
Intimate = personal. Not prophetic. Argue prophecy the next time you are intimate with someone and see how far it gets you. If it will not work at the human level why do you assume it will work with God? The Bible says over and over it will not.
You will never succeed in an intimate human relationship if you stand on ceremony alone. Neither will you know God without it. Ceremony and meditation will assist in appreciating the creation, but not the creator. Humble yourself and accept Christ who humbled Himself for you. Accept Him personally and He will accept you intimately.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft
R.I.P. AMERICAN REPUBLIC
[June 21, 1788 - October 26, 2001]
- Here lies Liberty -
Born in the spring,
died in the fall.
Stabbed in the back,
forsaken by all.
[June 21, 1788 - October 26, 2001]
- Here lies Liberty -
Born in the spring,
died in the fall.
Stabbed in the back,
forsaken by all.
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12236
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: What does it mean...
Post #17Choir Loft wrote: [Replying to Elijah John]
Your objections are noted. Sadly you have missed the point completely.
--------------------------------
EJ reponds:
Maybe, I find a lot of your arguments on this post confusing,
-------------------------------
You take the position that meditation and some sort of abstract method of appreciation of God is sufficient. I submit, sir that your point of view is entirely wrong from the Biblical sense, from the spiritual sense and from the personal sense. You are approaching the subject with a double mind and no man with a double mind will accomplish anything either on earth or in heaven.
-----------------------------------------------------
EJ responds:
I find your tone judgemental, and a personal attack. You are preaching, not just giving your opinion, imo.
Also, you mischaracterze what I mean by meditation. By meditation, I do not mean an Eastern discipline. I am talking about meditating on Scripture, ever hear of that? I was talking about meditating on scripture and the Law and said as much.
---------------------------------------------------------
Prophetic vs. Personal
You expressed the opinion that a prophetic relationship to God is superior to a personal one. Are you married? Do you have anyone in your life with whom you share intimate moments? Would you describe those moments as personal or prophetic? It's personal for most of the world.
Do you not know the difference between prophetic and personal? The OT was prophetic and the NT is personal. God came to earth PERSONALLY to reveal His way to a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP. Intimacy is far superior to ceremony. When you are with someone do you meditate or appreciate? One is prophetic and the other is personal. Most people find the personal much more satisfying. I know I do.
----------------------------------
EJ responds:
What are you TALKING about?!
---------------------------------------
Far east vs. Near at hand
You stated that you weren't interested in my example of far eastern religions, yet this is exactly the position you've take in regard to Christ. This is the double minded standard I referred to earlier. This is the confusion that traps you in your argument.
I also included Judaism in that group did you notice? The reason I did that was to illustrate the frustration of meditation, abstraction and sincerity. All the far east religions attempt to seize the supernatural by means of these methods yet they fail miserably. None can guarantee salvation much less a personal relationship with the Most High. Only God can grant that. It is wholly impossible for man to rise to the occasion - to seize the moment as it were.
--------------------------------------
EJ responds:
Yes, and you are ignoring my assertion that no one can approach God unless God initiates. We can only respond to the call of God. So by definition, anyone who seeks God is being called by God.
---------------------------------------
Sincerity vs. Salvation
All the sincerity and meditation in the world will gain you nothing. It may provide sufficient training to allow mental focus. It may in some instances accept spiritual visitation of demons and spirit guides (both the same) and it may thereby serve to elevate the man slightly into spiritual awareness, but it will not come close to approaching God and it will always result in disappointment and uncertainty if not overt danger.
--------------------------------------
EJ responds:
Again, you mischaracterize what I mean by "meditation" .
And more preaching, I do not believe in demons. You cite their existence as an established fact, as opposed to mere opinion or belief. That kind of unsupported assertion has no place in a debate.
--------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Two minds vs. One
Your mind is wandering in at least two directions and deliberately so. Jesus said, "you must be saved" and He also said "unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God". It is the second birth which enables the personal relationship with God. Why? Because the second birth makes the man part of God and God part of the man.
---------------------------------------------
EJ responds:
Here you are judging my motives, a personal attack. Your use of the word "deliberately" and you are preaching once again. Citing your beliefs as though they are undeniable established facts that we both (and all) agree on.
-----------------------------------------------
Humanity has always sought its own path to God and always always failed in the attempt. From the tower of Babel to the WTC, from the ceremony and determination of Islam to the fallacy of the American ideology of exceptionalism and hegemony, none can approach the throne of God except the One who He chose - the man Jesus. And none can know God except those who accept Christ.
-------------------------------------------------
EJ responds:
So Muslims and Jews are lost by your interpretation? Again, more opinion masquarading as fact. Preaching. Religiously exclusive, hegemonic preaching at that.
------------------------------------------------
The Bible has clearly shown that humility and repentance is the path to knowing Christ. Sincerity, ceremony, hubris and arrogance cannot come close. Since God chose to assume humility Himself by becoming a baby born in Bethlehem, how can man approach the Humble One with any other attitude? Kneel before Him and accept His way as your own and you will be saved.
----------------------------------------------------
EJ reponds:
The Hebrew Bible says humility is required to approach God, but not "Christ".
Blatant unapologetic preaching, especially that last sentence there. I consider kneeling before Christ as idolatry. Listening to Jesus is another matter. And your interpretation sir, certainly does not own the Bible.
----------------------------------------------
Intimate = personal. Not prophetic. Argue prophecy the next time you are intimate with someone and see how far it gets you. If it will not work at the human level why do you assume it will work with God? The Bible says over and over it will not.
You will never succeed in an intimate human relationship if you stand on ceremony alone. Neither will you know God without it. Ceremony and meditation will assist in appreciating the creation, but not the creator. Humble yourself and accept Christ who humbled Himself for you. Accept Him personally and He will accept you intimately.
------------------------------------------
EJ responds:
Preaching from the choir loft, is more like it.
------------------------------------------------------
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft
Last edited by Elijah John on Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12236
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: What does it mean...
Post #18[Replying to post 16 by Choir Loft]
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: Re: What does it mean...
[Replying to post 16 by Choir Loft]
You are misunderstanding or misreprenting my meaning regarding "meditation" I was not referring to any Eastern disipline, but was referring to meditation on Scripture. Nothing "abstract" about that. David meditated on the Law, and advocated we do the same. That is not "Eastern" meditation.
And I certainly do not think you are using the term "double-minded" correctly, or as James meant it. (wholehearted, I believe is what he was saying). I could as easily say that Trinitarians are "triple minded" the way you use the term.
Personally, I have a single minded devotion to the One God.
And you did not address much of the content of my statements in post 14. There are many, but I hope to focus on this one until you give me an answer. I hope to focus on the one, so that you do not have a chance to evade, and overlook the challenge in the mass of the other statements and responses.
You mentioned Ezekiel 33:11
American Standard Version (ASV)
"11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
The prophet only mentions repentance here as being necessary for forgiveness. No mention at all of faith in the coming "messiah' or Christ, as essential for forgiveness, why is that?
Lets focus n this question until you provide a thougtful answer and before we move onto anything else.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: Re: What does it mean...
[Replying to post 16 by Choir Loft]
You are misunderstanding or misreprenting my meaning regarding "meditation" I was not referring to any Eastern disipline, but was referring to meditation on Scripture. Nothing "abstract" about that. David meditated on the Law, and advocated we do the same. That is not "Eastern" meditation.
And I certainly do not think you are using the term "double-minded" correctly, or as James meant it. (wholehearted, I believe is what he was saying). I could as easily say that Trinitarians are "triple minded" the way you use the term.
Personally, I have a single minded devotion to the One God.
And you did not address much of the content of my statements in post 14. There are many, but I hope to focus on this one until you give me an answer. I hope to focus on the one, so that you do not have a chance to evade, and overlook the challenge in the mass of the other statements and responses.
You mentioned Ezekiel 33:11
American Standard Version (ASV)
"11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
The prophet only mentions repentance here as being necessary for forgiveness. No mention at all of faith in the coming "messiah' or Christ, as essential for forgiveness, why is that?
Lets focus n this question until you provide a thougtful answer and before we move onto anything else.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
otseng
- Savant
- Posts: 20976
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
- Location: Atlanta, GA
- Has thanked: 218 times
- Been thanked: 390 times
- Contact:
Post #19
Moderator CommentChoir Loft wrote: You are approaching the subject with a double mind and no man with a double mind will accomplish anything either on earth or in heaven.
Please do not accuse another of being a double mind.
Please review the Rules.
______________
Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
-
Choir Loft
- Banned
- Posts: 547
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:57 am
- Location: Tampa
Re: What does it mean...
Post #20[Replying to post 18 by Elijah John]
Since when is preaching either wrong or an illegitimate method of transmitting knowledge? I submit that your accusatory tone demonstrates a level of religious and logical bigotry on your part that refuses to acknowledge any position but your own. At this level no common ground can be found except that of continued insult proceeding from your keyboard.
Additionally I attempted to illustrate the difference between prophetic and personal by equating it to human intimacy. You responded with a rant about the trinity and insults about Christ which were never part of the argument - revealing to the reader a bias on your part and a logical inconsistency that extends beyond the scope of the discussion.
In other words, since you cannot offer a suitable rebuttal you have attempted to redirect the debate by means of feigned misunderstanding, accusation and insult supported by the moderator's own bias(*). Nice try, but you still lose.
According to your own admission you do not understand human intimacy as opposed to mental appreciation - between poetry and intercourse. The parallel I attempted to illustrate is equal to the difference between scriptural meditation and the second birth. One is a real relationship, the other is not.
When you reject an argument at the outset the only possible extension of it is constant frustrating reiterations of tradition and supposition - things which God rejected in the Jew when the Jew rejected God at the cross.
These are people who "pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith."
- Timothy 1:4
I say it again and I quote Christ as well. Without a real relationship with Almighty God NO ONE can be saved.
"Unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God."
- Jesus
The second birth enables a true relationship with God. Everything else is empty godless religion. It may look good to another man, but it means nothing to God.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft
(*)
I note also the moderator's knee jerk reaction to the phrase double minded, which is used in the Bible to describe a man who accepts two mutually exclusive arguments at the same time. Suddenly its wrong to point out that a man's argument is inconsistent? Mr. John has proven it true in his own words. Pointing it out does not make me a rule breaker.
But there is something else in play here I think.
I also note that the sacrilegious insults exhibited by Mr. John regarding the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ seem to have somehow slipped through the cracks of the moderator's rule book of values. To slander a sacred point in another man's religion is of great insult.
There is a double standard here.
Is it ok for Mr. John to vomit lies and insults about the Holiest figures in human history but a violation for me to point out John's inconsistent argument? One thing is quite certain. The moderator is twisting the rules to the advantage of one who hides in the midst of insults, lies, confusion and bigotry.
This is the nature of a double standard and with all these doubles going on the discussion seems to have completely jumped the shark (a Hollywood term meaning that a production or work has degenerated into a worthless effort).
Since when is preaching either wrong or an illegitimate method of transmitting knowledge? I submit that your accusatory tone demonstrates a level of religious and logical bigotry on your part that refuses to acknowledge any position but your own. At this level no common ground can be found except that of continued insult proceeding from your keyboard.
Additionally I attempted to illustrate the difference between prophetic and personal by equating it to human intimacy. You responded with a rant about the trinity and insults about Christ which were never part of the argument - revealing to the reader a bias on your part and a logical inconsistency that extends beyond the scope of the discussion.
In other words, since you cannot offer a suitable rebuttal you have attempted to redirect the debate by means of feigned misunderstanding, accusation and insult supported by the moderator's own bias(*). Nice try, but you still lose.
According to your own admission you do not understand human intimacy as opposed to mental appreciation - between poetry and intercourse. The parallel I attempted to illustrate is equal to the difference between scriptural meditation and the second birth. One is a real relationship, the other is not.
When you reject an argument at the outset the only possible extension of it is constant frustrating reiterations of tradition and supposition - things which God rejected in the Jew when the Jew rejected God at the cross.
These are people who "pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith."
- Timothy 1:4
I say it again and I quote Christ as well. Without a real relationship with Almighty God NO ONE can be saved.
"Unless you are born again you cannot see the Kingdom of God."
- Jesus
The second birth enables a true relationship with God. Everything else is empty godless religion. It may look good to another man, but it means nothing to God.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft
(*)
I note also the moderator's knee jerk reaction to the phrase double minded, which is used in the Bible to describe a man who accepts two mutually exclusive arguments at the same time. Suddenly its wrong to point out that a man's argument is inconsistent? Mr. John has proven it true in his own words. Pointing it out does not make me a rule breaker.
But there is something else in play here I think.
I also note that the sacrilegious insults exhibited by Mr. John regarding the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ seem to have somehow slipped through the cracks of the moderator's rule book of values. To slander a sacred point in another man's religion is of great insult.
There is a double standard here.
Is it ok for Mr. John to vomit lies and insults about the Holiest figures in human history but a violation for me to point out John's inconsistent argument? One thing is quite certain. The moderator is twisting the rules to the advantage of one who hides in the midst of insults, lies, confusion and bigotry.
This is the nature of a double standard and with all these doubles going on the discussion seems to have completely jumped the shark (a Hollywood term meaning that a production or work has degenerated into a worthless effort).
Last edited by Choir Loft on Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:40 am, edited 8 times in total.
R.I.P. AMERICAN REPUBLIC
[June 21, 1788 - October 26, 2001]
- Here lies Liberty -
Born in the spring,
died in the fall.
Stabbed in the back,
forsaken by all.
[June 21, 1788 - October 26, 2001]
- Here lies Liberty -
Born in the spring,
died in the fall.
Stabbed in the back,
forsaken by all.
