Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[KCKID]

Ploy noted for what it is . . .

KCKID
Please ...let's calm down and keep this discussion civil.

After you use the label "brainwashed" in your OP?

I'll just respond to this one for now. Of course Christians are brainwashed. All of society is brainwashed in some way or another. I've been a part of the SDA brainwashing myself so I can speak from some experience. Brainwashing is not necessarily 'sinister' but it is responsible for people believing in things that might not be true that are generally passed on to them via the pastor of their Church. He's the theological expert so he must be right. Few question what they are taught and, as we know, the Bible is very ambiguous and can be interpreted any number of ways. So, even those who do participate in Bible study can - and do - manipulate scriptures to follow the teaching of their particular denomination. That's why we have so many of them! I would say that EVERY SDA teaching is legitimate, i.e. they can be backed up with scripture!

Ever heard of the teaching about a log in ones eye?

Yes, I have, actually. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said, however.

[Ooberman]

So are pagans and witches.

So?

Just as heterosexuals are innately attracted to those of the opposite gender, homosexuals are innately attracted to those of the same gender.

What about those "attracted" to other deviant behaviors? They all get a congenital pass into the Church?

Yes, as long as it involves consenting adults.

Christian cult propaganda tries to get people to think if we allow gays to live, then pedophilia is next.

Christian cultists don't understand the difference between kids and consenting adults.

Probably why so many Christians are in trouble with pedophilia.

[orthodox skeptic]

[Replying to post 1 by KCKID]

Whoa back rider. The last time I looked the Episcopal Church, which I believe is as mainstream as you can get, is having no trouble with accepting gays and lesbians. They've even got a gay bishop. I attended a Methodist wedding at which the celebrant was a lesbian...you don't get much more mainstream than that. I think you need to take a closer look!

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 1 by KCKID]

Whoa back rider. The last time I looked the Episcopal Church, which I believe is as mainstream as you can get, is having no trouble with accepting gays and lesbians. They've even got a gay bishop. I attended a Methodist wedding at which the celebrant was a lesbian...you don't get much more mainstream than that. I think you need to take a closer look!

I'm well aware that such churches exist and, obviously, these are not those to which I refer. Let's be fair here ...MOST Christian Churches DON'T accept gays and lesbians. They DO, however, accept divorcees and re-marrieds, i.e. scriptural adulterers. Hmmm . . .

Thanks for your post. I know you meant well.

[Haven]

99, please answer me a few questions:

1) What is "gay culture?" I'm not aware of any such thing.

2) What is the "gay agenda?"

3) How does one "choose to be gay?" I chose to be straight, and I'm still gay .

4) What can LGBT people who want to join your religion / worship your brand of god do? Can they do anything, or will they be tortured eternally for simply being who they are (who, under your belief system, the Christian god created them to be)?

5) Why can't your god understand nuance? Not all men are the same, and not all women are the same. Why would an omnipotent god expect us all to fit some gendered archetype when it is obvious that we don't?

Please be as specific as possible and don't dodge these questions.

[Ooberman]

99, please answer me a few questions:

1) What is "gay culture?" I'm not aware of any such thing.

Things may have changed sine the 1990's (ya think, Oobs!?), but I remember a gay friend telling me there was a "gay culture". That said, I that was before it became more accepted.

2) What is the "gay agenda?"

Apparently to piss off Christians... :-/

3) How does one "choose to be gay?" I chose to be straight, and I'm still gay .

No one choose their sexuality. If Creatinists were honestr, we'd learn they "chose" to like a lot of kinky "shiite".

4) What can LGBT people who want to join your religion / worship your brand of god do? Can they do anything, or will they be tortured eternally for simply being who they are (who, under your belief system, the Christian god created them to be)?

Don't ask questions you want Creationists to think about.... It doesn't phase them, and it only leaves you in the lurch.

5) Why can't your god understand nuance? Not all men are the same, and not all women are the same. Why would an omnipotent god expect us all to fit some gendered archetype when it is obvious that we don't?

Good question. I'll wait for their response.

Please be as specific as possible and don't dodge these questions.

I prophesize a dodge...

[Nickman]

[Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Yep, I think you are spot on. One day they will have to change or be the outcast.

As Jesus predicted, hatred of the Church is seen as something to cheer on by the world.

Its not hatred, it is a lack of popularity to condone the condemnation that comes from the pulpits and out of the mouths of Jesus' followers.

As it is noted above, gay authority comes from the world and it's ways "secularization" and not the Gospel.

Gay authority? What is that? It is the secular citizens that are learning the true message of Jesus, do unto others as you would want them to do u to you. So we accept people for who they are. The farthest group of people from being Christlike are the Christians.

The hostility of this thread shows the incompatible nature of the gay agenda and Christian life.

Well of course homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible, the very book that Christians use condemns them. Christians condemn what they can't understand and choose not to learn to understand. Another unchristlike trait.

[otseng]

Sorry, I should take my own advice on keeping this discussion civil but I can't help myself when I'm around you, 99percent!

I like you where I can see you for what you are. Don't hide your nature or intentions on my account. I know what you desire all too well. There is never going to be a time when we have anything in common theologically. I know why you can't be happy founding your own religious movement and having all your gay pals promoting their pride there.

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[99percentatheism]

So are pagans and witches.

So?

Just as heterosexuals are innately attracted to those of the opposite gender, homosexuals are innately attracted to those of the same gender.

What about those "attracted" to other deviant behaviors? They all get a congenital pass into the Church?

Yes, as long as it involves consenting adults.

Christian cult propaganda tries to get people to think if we allow gays to live, then pedophilia is next.

Christian cultists don't understand the difference between kids and consenting adults.

Probably why so many Christians are in trouble with pedophilia.

Sex with someone of the same gender is homosexuality. All of the same gender sexual abuse?
Do football players get to shower with the cheerleaders?

Not yet.

[99percentatheism]

Haven
99, please answer me a few questions:

How flettering to be the star of a thread. My humble nature though won't allow me to glaot.

1) What is "gay culture?" I'm not aware of any such thing.

Really? There's a whole flag that they rally around. Very idolatry like if i say so in a Christian observation.

2) What is the "gay agenda?"

The carefully orchestrated propaganda to make homosexualoity seem so moral and upright. For 5000-years homosexuality has been driven out of society for obviosuly serious reasons. Now of course the cunning nature of propaganda has it taking a path that is quite odd.

3) How does one "choose to be gay?" I chose to be straight, and I'm still gay .

I would say that it takes quite the effort to do the gay thing.

4) What can LGBT people who want to join your religion / worship your brand of god do?

Why would they want to, other than spread gay culrture and the gay agenda?
Orientation means to show someone the way. To teach them a direction to head in.
Yuck.

Can they do anything, or will they be tortured eternally for simply being who they are (who, under your belief system, the Christian god created them to be)?

I don't care what happens to someone's eternity. I am not the judge. I wish they would just respect to choices of Christians that have left an immoral life and chosen a better path. You know orientation.

5) Why can't your god understand nuance?

Oh I think God can understanhd what LGBT's want perfectly. They leave nothing to the imagination.

Not all men are the same, and not all women are the same.

Men are not women and women are not men. Uless soemthing went wrong. LGBT culture seems to demand that genders are irrelevant. The whole heterosexism propaganda is ridiculous but plied none the less.

Why would an omnipotent god expect us all to fit some gendered archetype when it is obvious that we don't?

It seems to work quite well for normal individuals of every species. Why would we want to make equal deviants and aberrations?

Please be as specific as possible and don't dodge these questions.

Why do LGBT's want to force us to celebrate homosexuality? That is quite disturbing. And I am being polite. If I was allowed more specific defining here at this website, trust me, I would.