Will gays EVER be accepted by mainstream Christianity?

[KCKID]

The Mainstream Christian Church (i.e. the 'Christian Church' in general) appears to have an unshakable belief that gay people cannot possibly be Christians. Therefore gay people will always be regarded as 'lepers' because the mainstream Church believes that homosexuality is against the will of God and the actual practicing of such is a 'grave sin'. This is in spite of the fact that nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality referred to as a grave sin. This more comes from the minds of people who have received a life time of brainwashing into believing this. Where homosexual activity IS mentioned in scripture it almost always - in fact, PROBABLY always - refers to the practice of idolatry and not as WE today refer to homosexuality. There are those Christians who are so appalled at the notion that gay people might desire to integrate with 'actual Christians' within their Church community that they suggest gays start their own denomination ...minus the 'Christian' prefix, of course, which would be sacrilege. Such folks want nothing to do with homosexual people and their minds appear to be set on this.

Below is a recent item from The Guardian that tells of the plight of gay Christians in Uganda. In our particular neck of the woods (probably the majority of those of us who participate on the forum) gays have no fear of state imposed death or life imprisonment as do those in places such as Uganda. Gays do, however, have a stigma placed on them by most Christians that results in rejection by the mainstream Church and, indeed, by God himself. And, of course, the rejection of God is tantamount to death or, worse still, eternal torment. The latter makes the penalty imposed on gays in Uganda pale by comparison.

Will mainstream Christianity ever be accepting of people whose only 'sin' is that they happen to be gay ...i.e. an involuntary sexual attraction between two people of the same gender? If not, why not? Please, give your HONEST reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ry-kampala

Sunday is a special day in Uganda, the conservative east African country that is threatening to put gay people behind bars for life. On Sunday you can see families flocking to churches all over the country for prayer, wearing their best clothes.

The sermons are predictable. Church leaders will pray for divine intervention against the corrupt leaders, poverty and the potholed roads, and then finally call doom upon the country's homosexuals who are sinning against the Christian God and ruining African culture.

But not at a tiny church tucked away in one of Kampala's suburbs. Here, gay people meet in devoted challenge to mainstream denominations that have declared them outcasts. With dread-locked hair and in jeans and bathroom slippers, members of this congregation would stand out in the prim and proper evangelical church I sometimes go to. I feel overdressed in my white dress.

"Here we are all about freedom," Pepe Onziema, a gay rights activist tells me. "It is a universal church. We welcome people whether gay or straight."

The gates may be open but the road to the church that calls itself a friendship and reconciliation centre is not paved with sleek cars or thronged with believers. The worshippers trickle in. They take their seats, but not before surveying the crowd furtively, trying to identify everyone. Their life depends on this vigilance.

In Uganda, police raid homes and arrest those they suspect to be gay. Homosexuality is an offence under the penal code. The president, Yoweri Museveni, refuses to pass a bill that seeks to strengthen the punishments for homosexuality to include life imprisonment, but isn’t under pressure to do so. Conservative Christian churches, under the auspices of the Uganda Joint Christian Council, refuse to accept homosexuals in spite of more gay-friendly approaches from parent churches abroad. The anti-gay furnace is fanned by American evangelical churches that have made it their mission to free Africa of homosexuality, saying it is alien to African culture.

The gay Ugandan church seeks to spread an alternative gospel of love and acceptance for all. On this particular Sunday, it is the memorial of David Kato, a gay rights activist who was murdered in 2011. So the numbers are bigger than usual. When the church was started by Bishop Christopher Senyonjo (who has since been thrown out of the Anglican Church for ministering to gay people), the gay community in Uganda attended devotedly. But with arrests and growing anti-gay sentiments, threats to their lives and arrests, fewer and fewer people come to the church.

"Our numbers have reduced ever since we started in 2008," Denis, the chaplain and a primary school teacher, tells me. "It is worse now that the bill has been passed." If Denis's employees knew of his orientation or his calling, he would certainly lose his job. "This is the only place we can feel at home. Here we can worship God without feeling guilty or fearing persecution."

Joining a gay congregation in Uganda is risky but Onziema says it is necessary in a society that greatly values community. For on Sundays, when many Ugandans spend time with their families, most gay people have nowhere to go. "Coming here lets us know that we are not alone and gives us the strength to continue the struggle," Onziema says.

You can see both hope and fear in the eyes of the congregation as they read Bible verses proclaiming God's protection over them and sing "What a friend we have in Jesus".

Here, there are no thunderous shouts of praise, speaking in tongues or Bible-thumping that is characteristic of the evangelism that is so trendy in the country. In the quiet worship of Uganda's gay community, there is a still hope and the kind of courage you can only muster after you have seen it all and there is nothing left to fear. Sunday is also the day gay people in Uganda cast off their masks to chat about the latest fashion, cars and celebrities.

"You thought we were going to pray that God stops the anti-homosexuality bill," Mugisha, the head of Sexual Minorities Uganda, asks me with laughter and mischief in his voice. "It will not pass. We do not need to pray for that."

Mugisha is for a moment free from his job, his life, fighting for the basic human rights of gay people. "I come here for the community. It is better than staying home alone," he says. As the service ends, members of the congregation are asked to say something in memory of David Kato, whose spirit of resilience they will need as they walk out of the church into their daily routine.

"We know he did not die in vain," Mugisha says. "One day we shall be accepted."

[Clownboat]

Really? How many Christians have been threatened with being sued and put out of business by boycotts for no reason other than living as Christians have lived since the founding of The Church?

I find this interesting. If people do things that get them sued, what does them being Christian or not have to do with it? I would think Christians would be the ones doing things that would not get them sued. Should Christians also be allowed to murder? Where do you draw the line?

Unfortunately, most Christians seem focused on worshiping a book penned by men and miss the message of Jesus IMO. Who needs Jesus when you have the Bible? If only the Bible wasn't full of so much evil that so many blindly follow, this world would be more Jesus like, and better off for it IMO.

KCKID, I may not agree with your religious position, but as a former Christian of over 20 years, you are one of the most Christlike people I have heard in a long time and your light does shine before men. Doesn't make you right though!

[Ooberman]

Regarding Michael Sam, the gay football player. This si what one person said:

"Me, being a follower of Christ and a strong Christian, obviously that's a sin, and I definitely don't believe in it," Thomas told the New York Post. "I don't care to comment on it any more. You start bringing religion and politics into football it just gets ugly. I'm not saying he's selfish by any means, I know what he did is very courageous, a lot of people wouldn't do that, but at the same time no one really knows if the NFL is ready for it."

Notice he has to mention Christianity. After all, the only reason a person can be against being gay is because they follow the Bible.

There is no other reason.

I believe this will show to people how homophobic and hateful Christianity is, and push many people away. It will, however, attract homophobes to Christianity.

Thus, IMO, Christianity will become known as the "Gay Hating Religion".

[KCKID]

Really? How many Christians have been threatened with being sued and put out of business by boycotts for no reason other than living as Christians have lived since the founding of The Church?

I find this interesting. If people do things that get them sued, what does them being Christian or not have to do with it? I would think Christians would be the ones doing things that would not get them sued. Should Christians also be allowed to murder? Where do you draw the line?

Unfortunately, most Christians seem focused on worshiping a book penned by men and miss the message of Jesus IMO. Who needs Jesus when you have the Bible? If only the Bible wasn't full of so much evil that so many blindly follow, this world would be more Jesus like, and better off for it IMO.

KCKID, I may not agree with your religious position, but as a former Christian of over 20 years, you are one of the most Christlike people I have heard in a long time and your light does shine before men. Doesn't make you right though!

Thanks for the kind words, Clownboat.

You say that you may not agree with my religious position. To be honest, I didn't know that I had a religious position. As for my perhaps believing that I'm 'right' with regard to said religious position that I didn't know I had ...I only offer my (heartfelt?) opinions with regard to those ambiguous scriptures that are used incessantly by too many Christians with which to condemn homosexuality. I don't know that I'm right. But, I do prefer to err on the side of Jesus message 'to love' - yeah, I know that sounds cliche and corny and it probably is - than the typical 'fundie' message that appears to prefer that people squirm through said scriptures being preached at them. I honestly don't understand why homosexuality is such a big deal to Christians and I wonder what it is that drives such animosity within many of them. Again, my personal (heartfelt?) opinion is that it has nothing to do with God, Jesus or the Bible. I wish these folks would just come clean and give us the real reason.

[KCKID]

KCKID:

KCKID

[Replying to post 4 by Jake]

Yep, I think you are spot on. One day they will have to change or be the outcast.

As Jesus predicted, hatred of the Church is seen as something to cheer on by the world.

You're misrepresenting Jesus. Jesus was no friend of the pious hypocrites of His day and MANY in 'the Church' are precisely that and deserve to be called out for it by others ...just as Jesus did.

Jesus? The Jew that REaffirmed that marriage is man and woman?

Actually - in context! - the Jew that said divorce and remarriage is a no-no as per the question asked of Him.

And told an adulterer that they were not condemned. Told her to "Go, and sin no more." That would folow repentance and forgiveness according to "the Good News" of the Gospel. Which of course means: "Good News."

Repentance starts that good process.

How do you know who has repented of what? And, what has whether or not someone has repented got to do with you anyway? Moreover, unless YOU so happen to 'sin no more' (which, ahem, I'm sure you don't) then you must, ethically, refrain from using that particular text to aim at another. It IS quite telling that you choose to highlight that 'add on' from Jesus rather than concentrate on the "neither do I condemn you" part of the text. The whole point of that story is to show up those such as yourself as hypocrites. And, as said, if you continue to 'sin', i.e. have not yet reached 'perfection', then it IS hypocritical of you to expect others to 'sin no more'. * You are symbolically 'throwing the first stone' and in so doing ignoring the words of Jesus. Tsk, tsk. I've brought this up several times before and yet you continue along the same route of hypocrisy.

If that "in context" ply is to be implemented, then Jesus also "taught" the Torah that homosexusla were to be stoned. In context that is. And as you and the anti's have pointed out . . . Jesus said a word about homosexuals. It was already written.

Red herring alert again. There was no mention about homosexuality to begin with when Jesus was asked about divorce. You are the one that keeps including homosexuality within an alleged statement made by Jesus about divorce between a man and a woman. It's ridiculous. I know it, you know it, and everyone else who is capable of thinking knows it.

I have no fear of your accusation of my handling the words of Jesus.

I think the entire premise surrounding 'mainstream Christianity' is fear-based. I believe that the Bible scares you to death ...literally.

And you are entitled to your opinion no matter how off base it is. I wouldn't expect anything else.

Yes, it is an opinion, I grant you that. But, those Christians that believe in a literal hell of fire and eternal torment (as you do, I believe?) surely must be afraid of offending the Bible God, must they not? And, you say that you gave up atheism for this?

Anyway, I'll snip the rest of your post for now and maybe take up the appropriate parts for response later. These posts can get awful lengthy.

* This is not intended to imply that homosexuality is a 'sin'.

[Haven]

Propaganda duly noted. I have yet to hear one sermon shouting at homosexuals. I have though, heard many sermons that are honest and consistent with Christian Truth.

Here are some fine examples of "Christian" "Truth":

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

This is why people like KCKID cannot, nor ever will be able to, show support for the new paradigm of gay culture being plied in The Church. That rainbow flag exists outside of The Church and always will. Gay behavior cannot find support in Christian life. It is other-worldy and nothing other that tyranny can force that onto and into The Church.

The thing you aren't seeming to understand is that LGBT people couldn't care less about being accepted by "The Church." "The Church" (by which I assume you mean extremist fringe fundamentalist evangelical Christianity) can say whatever it wants about LGBT people and "gay" "behavior" (whatever that is); the vast majority of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals don't care. The problem we have is when "The Church" gets up off the pews and tries to limit our rights -- bully and persecute us -- through unconstitutional anti-gay legislation. That's the problem!

The bigtime propaganda ploy! The Ace up the sleeve as it were.

It's not propaganda, it's truth.

What causes homosexuals to kill themselves when they are all grown up and living their lives in gay communities? You seem to neglect that reality I see. One of my best friends' "partner" commited suicide with a totally affirming family and commited "partner" supporting him.

What makes you think his suicide had anything to do with his sexuality? Straight people kill themselves all the time due to things like depression, drugs, and financial problems, but no one accuses them of doing it because of their sexuality. When a gay person does the same, it's not because of those things, but automatically due to his "evil" "homosexual" "lifestyle." Just another staggeringly ridiculous heterosexist double standard.

Let me make this absolutely clear: it has been proven that gay kids kill themselves because of anti-gay bullying and family rejection. People, whether gay or straight, killing themselves for other reasons does nothing to change the fact that anti-gay attitudes lead to children's deaths.

Why not invent a religion that admits in all of these so-called depressed kids and "save them?" How come all of the Wiccan and other religions are not "saving" these kids? How dare you blame Christians for what choices others make. I could say that you and your beliefs and worldviews are responsible for the suicides of children once they decide to live a gay, lesbian and Bi-sexual and transgender life.

You don't seem to understand that this isn't about religion, it's about the vocal hate and heterosexist legislation coming from the Christian right. It's about bullying of kids, condemnation shouted in the streets, all in the name of a simplistic, cherry-picked interpretation of a 3,000-year-old book. Conservative Muslims believe it's sinful for women to leave their homes without head coverings, but you don't see them trying to pass laws requiring women to wear hijab.

I could say that you and your beliefs and worldviews are responsible for the suicides of children once they decide to live a gay, lesbian and Bi-sexual and transgender life.

Being lesbian, gay, or bisexual is not a choice. Most LGB people, believe it or not, chose to be straight, but it just didn't work out. It's not like we wake up one morning and say "hey, you know what, I think I'll turn gay today! Yeah. Being condemned, bullied, rejected by my family, and discriminated against by society is just so fabulous!" No. Just no. The vast majority of gays and lesbians are simply "born that way," and no amount of "choosing" could make them (us) otherwise.

Being trans* is the same way . . . no one wakes up and says "hey, I think I'll turn male / female / something else today, just for kicks." Trans* people were assigned the wrong gender at birth, and the transition process helps them bring their outward presentation in line with their internal identity. Once again, it's not a choice.

You have no right to lay their lives and deaths at the feet of Christians.

Fundamentalist "Christian" bullying is what is directly leading to these young people's tragic deaths. The fundamentalist church (not all Christians, only the literalist fringe) has the blood of innocent children on its hands, and I will not back down from asserting that fact!

Remember that old movie with Sigourney Weaver, where it was attempted to show how Christianity killed her son? It was after his gay lover was promiscuous with another gay guy that he killed himself. I've seen the movie. Why wasn't the gay community, especially the intensity of infidelity engaged in by gay males. the blame for the guy's suicide?

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[LES]

My church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon) accepts people with same-sex attraction into full fellowship with no restrictions. However, all members of the church are expected to following the doctrine of the church. With regard to marriage. the church teaches that marriage is between a man and woman. The church also teaches that adultery and fortification are serious sins and are grounds for lose of church membership. Some time ago the LDS church indorsed equal rights laws for homosexuals and civil union laws. The church's beliefs concerning marriage are spelled out in the document referenced below.

http://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng

[connermt]

My church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon) accepts people with same-sex attraction into full fellowship with no restrictions. However, all members of the church are expected to following the doctrine of the church. With regard to marriage. the church teaches that marriage is between a man and woman. The church also teaches that adultery and fortification are serious sins and are grounds for lose of church membership. Some time ago the LDS church indorsed equal rights laws for homosexuals and civil union laws. The church's beliefs concerning marriage are spelled out in the document referenced below.

http://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng

Is this a common practice across all churches? I ask as I attended a mormon church (too many years ago I'm afraid) and they were very, very anit-gay. While there were a few suspected gay members (even the preacher's son I believe - although with that terrible haircut he always gave himself I wonder if it was forced upon him...?), openly gay people we not allowed to attend or be a part of any service.
It went as far as members being "OK" with a person until they found out and then the person was, basically, ignored.

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 59 by Haven]

Persecution?" Asking you to accept others based on who they are (NOT who they have sex with; sexual orientation isn't about just sex!) isn't persecution, but shouting hate and condemnation at LGBT people is persecution!

Propaganda duly noted. I have yet to hear one sermon shouting at homosexuals. I have though, heard many sermons that are honest and consistent with Christian Truth.

This is why people like KCKID cannot, nor ever will be able to, show support for the new paradigm of gay culture being plied in The Church. That rainbow flag exists outside of The Church and always will. Gay behavior cannot find support in Christian life. It is other-worldy and nothing other that tyranny can force that onto and into The Church.

I don't want to clutter up this post with a list of Gay Affirming Churches but I will present them AGAIN - as before - if you would like. There are scores of them here in Australia and many hundreds of others throughout the world. As said, this list HAS previously been presented in other similar threads. So, yes, I CAN show support of The Church quite easily. In fact, you can check them out on the Internet for yourself. Furthermore, I don't believe that any tyranny or force was involved in these Churches accepting gay people 'as is'. So, what d'you have to say about that?

Attitudes like yours are the main reason gay kids kill themselves. Remember that.

The bigtime propaganda ploy! The Ace up the sleeve as it were.

What causes homosexuals to kill themselves when they are all grown up and living their lives in gay communities? You seem to neglect that reality I see. One of my best friends' "partner" commited suicide with a totally affirming family and commited "partner" supporting him.

Haven has already responded to this; however, there is no doubt in my mind that religious bigotry is complicit in at least some gay suicides, particularly when such tragedies occur within ultra Christian Fundamentalist families.

Jesus teaches about pulling the log out of ones eyes before they go accusing others of wrongdoing.

Why not invent a religion that admits in all of these so-called depressed kids and "save them?" How come all of the Wiccan and other religions are not "saving" these kids? How dare you blame Christians for what choices others make. I could say that you and your beliefs and worldviews are responsible for the suicides of children once they decide to live a gay, lesbian and Bi-sexual and transgender life.

You could say that but I'd respond with "Nonsense!" You haven't thought this through very well at all. I used the word 'complicit' above with regard to the Christian Church and the (generally) hateful message that it gives to gay people.* Even non-Christians are familiar with this message. The penalty that is preached by "The Church" for being a homosexual is the eternal torment of fire and brimstone that takes place in an alleged place called hell. Again, even non-Christians know that Christians not only believe this but that they are quite okay with it. This is all part and parcel of the religion of Christianity. Sickening!

You have no right to lay their lives and deaths at the feet of Christians. What a bogus bunch of propaganda that is.

It would be difficult if not impossible to prove that the vulgar message of the average Christian Church is responsible for the deaths of at least some young gay people. However, I personally don't require proof. I've heard the message over and over and over again and it appalls me. Evidently, it also appalls the Churches mentioned previously who have opened their doors to gay people and possibly others that mainline Christianity has rejected. If I was religious I might call out, "Thank ya, Jesus!"

*Not just a hateful message to gay people but also to atheists and every other religious group in the world that isn't Christian.

[Joab]

*Not just a hateful message to gay people but also to atheists and every other religious group in the world that isn't Christian.

And other christians, I might add.

[KCKID]

Propaganda duly noted. I have yet to hear one sermon shouting at homosexuals. I have though, heard many sermons that are honest and consistent with Christian Truth.

Here are some fine examples of "Christian" "Truth":

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

And, they are but three of MANY such sociopathic/psychopathic preachers who 99percent claims don't exist. That said, I'm pretty sure 99percent has mentioned previously that he preaches his anti-gay message in other Churches in other areas. I wonder how his anti-gay Christian message compares to that of these 'men of God' ...? Perhaps he can shed some light on this when he returns to the forum.