Creationists: give a coherent definition of "kind"

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Creationists: give a coherent definition of "kind"

Post #1

Post by Haven »

In last week's debate between young-earth creationist (YEC) Ken Ham and science advocate Bill Nye, the former tried to get around the problem of too many animals on the Ark by saying that Noah didn't bring two of each species, but two of each kind of animal. Among YECs, Ham is hardly alone in using this term as a stand-in for actual biological taxonomy, and, like other YECs, he didn't offer a scientifically rigorous or even logically coherent definition of the term (he said it was 'like a family,' but made an exception for the family Hominidae, which includes both humans and the other great apes).

Can our resident creationists do better?

Debate questions: What, in biological terms, is a 'kind?' How does this term relate to biological categories, like 'species,' 'genus,' or 'family?' How many 'kinds' are there? What scientific justification do you have for using this term instead of well-established biological taxonomy?

Lastly, if you can't provide a coherent definition, will you agree to stop using the word 'kind' in debates about biology?
Last edited by Haven on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #131

Post by Volbrigade »

[Replying to post 129 by DanieltheDragon]

Okay. I think I see the source of your confusion.

You are asking for a definition of a Biblical "kind" -- which no longer exists, and which you can't see -- that compares with the definition of canidae, which is extant, and which you CAN see.

Since you asked nicely ( 8-) ), I'l try and elaborate.

In thinking of "kinds", you have to discard the ingrained indoctrination that says animals "evolved" from simpler ancestors -- ultimately, according to the theory, to common descent from a randomly assembled single-celled organism (as Haven ponts out).

That is bunk.

It is popularly held bunk -- but bunk nontheless. Some secular scientists are alarmed at the way our advancing understanding of the complexity of the cell, and the impossibility of the information contained in the genetic code advancing from instructions for amoebas to instructions for men, are dismantling this quaint but persistent 19th-century notion.

The Bible says that God created the beasts, in all of their pre-Fall, pre-Flood variety, on a single day.

And these beasts, like the vegetation He also created, reproduced according to their KIND. So, the bovine "kind" produced more bovine; the canine "kind" produced canines, etc. Bovines and canines could not reproduce together; nor bovine and bananas (even though they share a considerable amount of DNA, since they have the same Designer).

Are we together so far?

Now the key is: those original "kinds" contained much more diversity in their genetic code than their descendants. So that from the original canine "kind" on the Ark, it was possible through natural selection to specialize the traits that made wolves different from coyotes, and coyotes different from dingos.

The process is also irreversible. Once information is "selected out", it will not spontaneously reappear. You cannot get the canine "kind" from a pair of domestic dogs; but if you can make them more "wolf-like", by repeatedly breeding wolves with your Golden Retriever, and the descendants of that union.

Does that help?

Btw -- there was only one human "kind" on the Ark, as well. And from those 8 people sprang the variety of humans on the planet; with, for instance, natural selection playing an obvious role in selecting for melanin content in differing environments.

Since the Flood was only 200 or so generations ago, that means that every person on earth is a virtual "kissing cousin" with every other person.

So, uh... howdy, cuz...
8-)

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Post #132

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 130 by Volbrigade]

Ok well that makes sense.

I guess my question to all that is the term still useful in describing zoology biology etc?

In other words when talking about the Flood myth kind has a use when referring to biblical events. Now if I am having a conversation about dogs wolves etc. using kinds seems not to be as descriptive so using canidae would be more suitable in the context of that conversation right? since it is more specific and I can make comparisons using that word while if I used kind I can make no specific comparisons.

Like I said before kind has its uses and purposes but it is not universally useful. Just like if I ask what phylums were on the ark that would not be very useful right?

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Post #133

Post by Goat »

Volbrigade wrote:
Not by "A flood". By "THE Flood". And no, I can't. But there are many PhD scientists who can, by providing explanations and interpretations of the existing evidence and data -- the same evidence and data available to everyone -- that is far beyond plausible, and into the realm of "convincing".
)

Please show that there are "many PH.D scientists who can show that it is 'beyond pausible' and into the realm of convincing. Show that these 'PH.D' scientists are qualified in the proper field (in other words, they aren't electrical engineers or computer scientists, but have the knowledge geology needed).
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Post #134

Post by Haven »

[color=indigo]Volbrigade[/color] wrote: In thinking of "kinds", you have to discard the ingrained indoctrination that says animals "evolved" from simpler ancestors -- ultimately, according to the theory, to common descent from a randomly assembled single-celled organism (as Haven ponts out).
(emphasis mine)

I didn't point out that all life descends from a "randomly assembled single-celled organism." What I said was that all life on Earth descends from a common ancestor, which formed through the (non-random!) process of abiogenesis and was likely much simpler than today's single-celled organisms.

[color=violet]Volbrigade[/color] wrote:It is popularly held bunk -- but bunk nontheless. Some secular scientists are alarmed at the way our advancing understanding of the complexity of the cell, and the impossibility of the information contained in the genetic code advancing from instructions for amoebas to instructions for men, are dismantling this quaint but persistent 19th-century notion.
This is pure propaganda. Not only is this completely false, but it is actually slanderous against scientists who work in the fields of genetics, evolutionary biology, and related disciplines. It's dishonest to make totally unevidenced and patently false statements like these.
[color=red]Volbrigade[/color] wrote:The Bible says that God created the beasts, in all of their pre-Fall, pre-Flood variety, on a single day.

And these beasts, like the vegetation He also created, reproduced according to their KIND. So, the bovine "kind" produced more bovine; the canine "kind" produced canines, etc.
You still haven't defined what a "kind" is. You've simply re-stated what the Bible says, but that doesn't get us anywhere. What, exactly, does the Bible mean by "kind?" Are bovines and bison the same "kind?" South American and Carolina parakeets? Humans and chimpanzees?
[color=darkblue]Volbrigade[/color] wrote:Bovines and canines could not reproduce together; nor bovine and bananas (even though they share a considerable amount of DNA, since they have the same Designer).
This is an ad hoc, off-the-cuff, utterly unevidenced assertion to "explain away" the markers in DNA that clearly point to common descent. I could just as easily blithely assert that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the double helix to remind us of His Noodliness, and that would have as much merit as your unevidenced (and unfalsifiable) blind assertion.

[color=blue]Volbrigade[/color] wrote:Now the key is: those original "kinds" contained much more diversity in their genetic code than their descendants. So that from the original canine "kind" on the Ark, it was possible through natural selection to specialize the traits that made wolves different from coyotes, and coyotes different from dingos.
Where is the evidence for any of this?

Oh yeah, like Noah's Ark, it doesn't exist.
[color=green]Volbrigade[/color] wrote:The process is also irreversible. Once information is "selected out", it will not spontaneously reappear. You cannot get the canine "kind" from a pair of domestic dogs; but if you can make them more "wolf-like", by repeatedly breeding wolves with your Golden Retriever, and the descendants of that union.
Got evidence?
[color=brown]Volbrigade[/color] wrote:Does that help?
Not when the amount of evidence you've presented is equal to the amount of snow currently covering the Amazon rainforest.
[color=red]Volbrigade[/color] wrote:Btw -- there was only one human "kind" on the Ark, as well. And from those 8 people sprang the variety of humans on the planet; with, for instance, natural selection playing an obvious role in selecting for melanin content in differing environments.
This is actually impossible because there would not be enough genetic diversity for all people to descend from just eight people. It didn't happen.
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Post #135

Post by Nickman »

[Replying to post 130 by Volbrigade]

If the bovine kind and the canine kind created more bovine and canine kind, yet the newer bovine and canine kinds were different, you have again proven evolution. They are still bovine, and canine but different. Why would a bovine or canine kind be able to create anything that looks different if biological evolution is not true? Of course, if BE was wrong, you wouldn't have all the different species of bovine, and canine. You would have one. The offspring would only have small changes such as different spots, or stature. Kinds cannot explain what we observe. BE can and does.

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Post #136

Post by Joab »

Volbrigade wrote:
[Replying to post 108 by DanieltheDragon]

How many floods from ancient times have involved the release of the "fountains of the deep"?

3% of the earths water is subterranean. That's gonna cause a flood that covers Mt Everest..............not.
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Post #137

Post by Wolfbitn »

[Replying to post 135 by Joab]

3% now... are you making the claim that it has never been greater? Where do you cite this from?

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Post #138

Post by Joab »

Wolfbitn wrote: [Replying to post 135 by Joab]

3% now... are you making the claim that it has never been greater? Where do you cite this from?
One who refuses to supply evidence for his claims is being quite disingenuous to demand evidence from another.

I might supply it if you "ask nicely", was that the expression?

Not that it matters there isn't enough water on the planet to cover Mt Everest to a depth of 20 or 50 feet, whichever you want to claim.
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Post #139

Post by dianaiad »

The Me's wrote: [Replying to post 100 by DanieltheDragon]

Your post is nothing more than anti-religious bigotry.

No one with adult-level education would make the claim that the Bible is fiction in light of the last 300 years of archaeology.
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Post #140

Post by dianaiad »

The Me's wrote:

It's a lie to call the Bible fiction; lying about what the Bible is insults the people who belong to Bible-based religions.

Your post is condescending, as well, and I'm sure that it was designed to be so.

The reason I mentioned your education level is because your ignorance of the last 300 years of archaeology is striking. There have been so many discoveries made that no one with any level of interest could have made the post you made.

You're welcome to have an opinion of the Bible, any opinion you want.

But when you make posts like this, don't whine when someone calls you on it. Take it like a man and learn what you're missing.

I for one will never tolerate bigotry of any kind. So even if you don't understand the topic, you can endeavor to restrict your comments to neutral or positive and avoid direct personal attacks.
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