? A Question For All Former Christians Who Fell Away ?

[YahDough]

This is a question addressed only to former Christians who have left the faith.

Why did you become a Christian?
[/b]

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

Satan is simply God's alter ego; God in a Satan mask. And although Adam and Eve were given complete free will, there never was any chance that they would NOT fall, just as God always knew they would, is there? God intended for Adam and Eve to fall into this state of sin when He created them, and God got exactly the result He intended to get, just as He surely must. All of these conclusions flow inexorably, one from the other. And of course the only possible way to atone for sin of this magnitude is through the shedding of blood. And not just any blood. For this much sin the shedding of Holy Blood is required. Why? GOD'S PLAN...GOD'S RULES! This required God to come to Earth in the form of a man, and so to die in agony and shed His Holy Blood to wash away the sins that humankind were created to fall into in the first place. But only those who choose to believe in this entire story on faith will be forgiven and ultimately be saved. The rest of humankind is screwed for all eternity.

I think that's a cynically simplified but somewhat accurate interpretation of God's plan. But I'd give you a C- if it were a book report of the Bible.

Because otherwise I might very well mistake it for the stuff the comes from the south end of a northward walking bull. This story makes the flying team of reindeer story seem almost plausible. Almost.

Sometimes the truth seems stranger than fiction.
God is pleased with child-like faith in the truth.

"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."- Jesus

God apparently is intending to surround Himself only with those who have firmly established themselves to be most child-like and simple minded. And like everything else that I detailed, of course that makes sense to you. Truth can sometimes be quite surprising, I admit. But stranger then fiction? Hardly! Fiction is only constrained by the limits of our imagination. Much the way your belief system is only constrained, by the barest of margins, by your imagination. Real life on the other hand is constrained by hard physical reality. So what you are really asserting here, is that your system of belief, as apparently absurd as it is, is far too absurd NOT to be true. Which is a TRULY absurd statement, and represents a complete disassociation from the reality that the majority of actually live in. Does that mean that your reality is not true? Well, truth is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it! And many people do often confirm that God is there for them, when they get that raise they have been praying for, or when their team wins the big game, just as they prayed it would. God is really pretty good at occasionally fulfilling mundane requests. And yet when a psycho walks into a classroom full of six year old's armed with a hand gun and an intent to shoot each one in the head at point blank range, or when a tornado causes a brick church wall to collapse on and kill worshipers, including children, in the very ACT of praying to God... in other words when the make believe world of reality comes face to face with hard physical reality, hard physical reality inevitably prevails. And in such cases God is nowhere to be found. A God who is not there for these individuals, including the most innocent, and who does not act at a moment of extreme physical peril is in no way different from a God who never existed to begin with. And that is a truth that simply represents cold hard fact.

[YahDough]

[Replying to YahDough]

Satan is simply God's alter ego; God in a Satan mask. And although Adam and Eve were given complete free will, there never was any chance that they would NOT fall, just as God always knew they would, is there? God intended for Adam and Eve to fall into this state of sin when He created them, and God got exactly the result He intended to get, just as He surely must. All of these conclusions flow inexorably, one from the other. And of course the only possible way to atone for sin of this magnitude is through the shedding of blood. And not just any blood. For this much sin the shedding of Holy Blood is required. Why? GOD'S PLAN...GOD'S RULES! This required God to come to Earth in the form of a man, and so to die in agony and shed His Holy Blood to wash away the sins that humankind were created to fall into in the first place. But only those who choose to believe in this entire story on faith will be forgiven and ultimately be saved. The rest of humankind is screwed for all eternity.

I think that's a cynically simplified but somewhat accurate interpretation of God's plan. But I'd give you a C- if it were a book report of the Bible.

Because otherwise I might very well mistake it for the stuff the comes from the south end of a northward walking bull. This story makes the flying team of reindeer story seem almost plausible. Almost.

Sometimes the truth seems stranger than fiction.
God is pleased with child-like faith in the truth.

"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."- Jesus

God apparently is intending to surround Himself only with those who have firmly established themselves to be most child-like and simple minded. And like everything else that I detailed, of course that makes sense to you. Truth can sometimes be quite surprising, I admit. But stranger then fiction? Hardly! Fiction is only constrained by the limits of our imagination. Much the way your belief system is only constrained, by the barest of margins, by your imagination. Real life on the other hand is constrained by hard physical reality. So what you are really asserting here, is that your system of belief, as apparently absurd as it is, is far too absurd NOT to be true. Which is a TRULY absurd statement, and represents a complete disassociation from the reality that the majority of actually live in. Does that mean that your reality is not true? Well, truth is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it! And many people do often confirm that God is there for them, when they get that raise they have been praying for, or when their team wins the big game, just as they prayed it would. God is really pretty good at occasionally fulfilling mundane requests. And yet when a psycho walks into a classroom full of six year old's armed with a hand gun and an intent to shoot each one in the head at point blank range, or when a tornado causes a brick church wall to collapse on and kill worshipers, including children, in the very ACT of praying to God... in other words when the make believe world of reality comes face to face with hard physical reality, hard physical reality inevitably prevails. And in such cases God is nowhere to be found. A God who is not there for these individuals, including the most innocent, and who does not act at a moment of extreme physical peril is in no way different from a God who never existed to begin with. And that is a truth that simply represents cold hard fact.

I will admit it can be a cold hard end for those who for one reason or another do not believe in or accept the offer of redemption through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, God's only begotten Son. But this is God's creation and His plan. He runs the show, through Christ. Do you think a cynical, complaining attitude from a non-believer is going to change His MO?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

I will admit it can be a cold hard end for those who for one reason or another do not believe in or accept the offer of redemption through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, God's only begotten Son. But this is God's creation and His plan. He runs the show, through Christ. Do you think a cynical, complaining attitude from a non-believer is going to change His MO?

What do you say to a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a devout follower of any other non Christian religion, when they preach to you of the folly and consequences of not subscribing to THEIR revealed truth? They are just as devout and every bit as certain of the truth and righteousness of their entirely different systems of religious belief as you are of yours! Does the possibility of them being right and you being wrong worry you at all? Even a little bit? Or do you just smile tolerantly at their deluded foolishness, knowing full well that the nonsense they believe cannot in any way actually have an effect you? I am certainly fully aware of what Christians claim will happen to all those who do not turn to Jesus. And yet threats of eternal fire and damnation do not frighten me even a little bit. So how certain must I be that these claims are nothing but pure bull stuff, no different from the baseless bull stuff preached by those devout believers of those other meaningless ancient forms of superstitious foolishness?

[YahDough]

[Replying to YahDough]

I will admit it can be a cold hard end for those who for one reason or another do not believe in or accept the offer of redemption through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, God's only begotten Son. But this is God's creation and His plan. He runs the show, through Christ. Do you think a cynical, complaining attitude from a non-believer is going to change His MO?

What do you say to a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a devout follower of any other non Christian religion, when they preach to you of the folly and consequences of not subscribing to THEIR revealed truth? They are just as devout and every bit as certain of the truth and righteousness of their entirely different systems of religious belief as you are of yours! Does the possibility of them being right and you being wrong worry you at all? Even a little bit? Or do you just smile tolerantly at their deluded foolishness, knowing full well that the nonsense they believe cannot in any way actually have an effect you? I am certainly fully aware of what Christians claim will happen to all those who do not turn to Jesus. And yet threats of eternal fire and damnation do not frighten me even a little bit. So how certain must I be that these claims are nothing but pure bull stuff, no different from the baseless bull stuff preached by those devout believers of those other meaningless ancient forms of superstitious foolishness?

I think those questions are for a new OP. I don't know how the LORD will judge all the religions in the world. It seems some Christians won't make it to to heaven and some who aren't Christians will. It's God's call, not mine. But anyone and everyone will have to go through Christ to get to everlasting life, regardless of their religion.

Jesus said:
Mt:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

My point was that your pronouncements of divinely inspired "truths" have no more impact or importance to me, then the divinely inspired pronouncement of "truths" promoted by the devoted followers of other religions have on either one of us. I just have one further level of insulation from the nonsense then you do, that's all.

[YahDough]

[Replying to YahDough]

My point was that your pronouncements of divinely inspired "truths" have no more impact or importance to me, then the divinely inspired pronouncement of "truths" promoted by the devoted followers of other religions have on either one of us. I just have one further level of insulation from the nonsense then you do, that's all.

I have no conflict with a lot of teachings from other religions. There are many truths found in them. Wouldn't you rather feel impowered to discern truth rather than be insulated from it?

Jesus said the truth shall make us free.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

I have no conflict with a lot of teachings from other religions. There are many truths found in them. Wouldn't you rather feel impowered to discern truth rather than be insulated from it?

Speaking of teachings from other religions, here is a good one for you taken directly from God's Holy Word, the Koran: "That they said (in boast) 'We have killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah';-- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:--" (Koran, Su 4:157).

Jesus said the truth shall make us free.

Perhaps Jesus was talking about a truth such as this one, also taken directly from the Holy Koran: "And Behold! Allah will say: 'O Jesus the son of Mary! Dids't say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"' He will say: "Glory to thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say)." (Koran Su 5:118, Sect.16).

[YahDough]

[Replying to YahDough]

I have no conflict with a lot of teachings from other religions. There are many truths found in them. Wouldn't you rather feel impowered to discern truth rather than be insulated from it?

Speaking of teachings from other religions, here is a good one for you taken directly from God's Holy Word, the Koran: "That they said (in boast) 'We have killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah';-- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:--" (Koran, Su 4:157).

Christ Jesus was more than an "apostle of Allah". If Muslims equate Allah with God then Christ Jesus was/is the Son of Allah. Maybe that will help them accept Christianity better. Orthodox Muslims seem to have missed or rejected the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Yet in this passage they call Him Christ which means Savior/Messiah. Their doctrine seems to insulate them from the full truth imo.

Jesus said the truth shall make us free.

Perhaps Jesus was talking about a truth such as this one, also taken directly from the Holy Koran: "And Behold! Allah will say: 'O Jesus the son of Mary! Dids't say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"' He will say: "Glory to thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say)." (Koran Su 5:118, Sect.16).

This sounds like the Muslims tuned in on the corruption of the Christian Church before the fall of the Roman Empire. But Christ should not have been rejected as Lord and Savior just because those who professed him were corrupted.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to YahDough]

Christ Jesus was more than an "apostle of Allah". If Muslims equate Allah with God then Christ Jesus was/is the Son of Allah. Maybe that will help them accept Christianity better. Orthodox Muslims seem to have missed or rejected the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Yet in this passage they call Him Christ which means Savior/Messiah. Their doctrine seems to insulate them from the full truth imo.

According to Muslim teaching, taken directly from God's Holy Word the Koran, Jesus was one of God's special chosen, a prophet just like and equal to Mohammad. But both Jesus and Mohammad were fully men, and NOT God. Jesus was never crucified, nor was he ever resurrected from the dead as I have shown. This is stated specifically in the Koran, as told to Mohammad by the angel Gabriel. The Koran is not the "inspired" Word of God you see, the Koran is the DIRECT Word of God, and as such is completely inerrant. Muslims know this to be true beyond all possibility of doubt, because they say so. They are very much like you in that respect.

This sounds like the Muslims tuned in on the corruption of the Christian Church before the fall of the Roman Empire. But Christ should not have been rejected as Lord and Savior just because those who professed him were corrupted.

Islam was born, and the Koran written, during the 7th century AD., in what is now Saudi Arabia. The city of Rome and the western portion of the Roman empire had already fallen by then. Mohammad never preached that he, Mohammad, was in any way divine. In fact he preached just the opposite. Muslims reject both the divinity of Jesus and the story of his resurrection from the dead because the angel Gabriel told the prophet Mohammad that these things WERE NOT TRUE. It's right there in their Holy Book, so it MUST be true! You can't argue with the truth when it is clearly contained right there in your Holy Book, can you? And Muslims have known from their earliest memory as children, that the Koran is unarguably God's Holy Word, and not to be questioned. At what point would it even occur to you to deny, or even actively question, something you have been conditioned from birth to believe beyond all doubt cannot be denied or questioned? That would require quite a knothead, wouldn't it! Ironically, as chance would have it, we actually do have quite a number of just such individuals on this very forum, knotheads all just like me, who possess just the required hardness of head to stand up and challenge the various popular and prevailing declarations of "truth," by declaring them to be, in reality, nothing more then ancient superstition and make believe. Or modern superstition and make believe, like Mormonism and Scientology. In other words the foolishness that people believe because they have been conditioned to believe it, and cannot even conceive of challenging what they have been conditioned to accept it as being beyond challenge.

[YahDough]

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]

I just read where Muslims are converting to Christianity in large numbers.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina31103.htm

There are many more testimonies that can be found on-line.

I can see why. It seems to me somebody was posing as the angel Gabriel when Muhammad was told to reject Christ Jesus as the crucified and risen Savior. And the condition of the Christian Church at that time was less than ideal so it was easy to accept as truth.