Christian "Love" for "Homosexuals"

[Haven]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

While I am not going to watch the video,

Why not? Squeamish? I don't blame you. This video infuriates me. However, stoning people (women) for adultery is a command of God. This is the very same God you'll be worshiping in church in a day or two. The very same God that you are "humbled to serve" ...as per your below post.

I do not worship the Muslim god. And yes, I am squeamish. Many Christians have been slaughtered by Muslims now. A Sudanese Christian woman is facing death right now. So absolutely YES, I am squeamish to see a stoning.

could you tell me if they are Jews or Christians stoning the woman?

Well, as Hatuey already pointed out, WHO is doing the stoning is not the point. Stoning someone to death is stoning someone to death REGARDLESS of who is doing it. However, since you ask, these wretched murderers are apparently Muslims from 'somewhere in Africa' according to the comments. I'll make my point again ...stoning people to death was a command of God!

They are Muslims. That's all I wanted to know.

And Christians do not oppose homosexuality based on L-20:13,

While I realize that this is not what you mean, I'd say that it could be reasoned fairly accurately that people are against homosexuality for reasons other than "what the Bible sez."

Many non Christian people do not celebrate gay sex and those that enjoy it. Tolerance is not celebration.

Whatever, Christians who might well have a personal fear/loathing of homosexuality persistently USE Leviticus and a few other scriptures (a few is all there are) as support for homophobia and bigotry.

Homophobia and bigotry do not fit the nature of the opposition to same gender sex acts. They are neologisms that are more propaganda than rational.

And, of course, many others appear to just parrot what they've been brainwashed with over the years.

Brainwashed? When there is not one single piece of scripture that even remotely supports homosexuality . . . and you dare use the word brainwashed?????

Yes, it's an appalling state of affairs but that's the way it seems to be. You, 99percent, have stated a number of times that "God says that homosexuality is an abomination" so - CLEARLY - YOU use Leviticus 20:13 when it suits your purpose.

I believe in reality. My usage is historical and accurate. But only a brainwashed person could make the accusation that the Gospel calls for stoning people of any kind of sin behavior.

Quote me there too.

But I do wish that you would stop addressing me personally.

I bolded that for a reason.

Would you like me to produce a recent post of yours in which you use Leviticus 20:13 to make your argument against homosexuality? Or, would you rather withdraw your above statement?

Like I said, the Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is not good. et al.

nor do they preach the death penalty for people that engage in homosexuality.

Then why use Leviticus 20:13 AT ALL to toss at gay people? Why use the 'abomination' part but come to a screeching halt at the 'death penalty' part? Do you understand, 99percent, why more and more people are rejecting this brand of 'hypocritical Christianity'?

Dead people cannot repent. Christian love has nothing to do with killing people. Not one place in the New Testament supports or condones killing anyone that sins. In fact, you see the exact opposite. The EXACT opposite.

Now, I believe, not even those people that protest funerals of soldiers right?

Do you mean those that carry the banners, "Fags Must Die! See Leviticus 20:13" ...? Do you mean those ones?

There is no place in the Gospels or the rest of the New Testament that condones that kind of behavior either. And like it or not, L-20:13 is reality.

But the following loving pronouncement is motivating for Christians "throughout the ages:

Don’t you know that people who are unjust won’t inherit God’s kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Those who are sexually immoral, those who worship false gods, adulterers, both participants in same-sex intercourse, thieves, the greedy, drunks, abusive people, and swindlers won’t inherit God’s kingdom. That is what some of you used to be! But you were washed clean, you were made holy to God, and you were made right with God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Where did the bolded part appear from? This is the same text (1 Corinthians 6:9) from the KJV:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

That is understood as referencing same gender sexual behavior. What you define as homosexuality in today's world.

Which of the above terms, 'fornicators', idolaters', 'adulterers', effeminate' or 'abusers of themselves' translates to mean homosexuality? Please ...let me know ASAP so that I can make a note of this for future discussions.

Leviticus18:22and 20:13 forbid a man lying with another man as one would with a woman. Leviticus was originally written in Hebrew, but Paul was a Greek-educated Jew writing to Gentiles in Greek, the common language of the day, and probably was using the Greek translation of the Old Testament available in that day, the Septuagint, or LXX, for his Scripture quotations.

The Greek translation of these Leviticus passages condemns a man (arseno) lying with (koitai) another man (arseno); these words (excuse the pun) lie side-by-side in these passages in Leviticus. Paul joins these two words together into a neologism, a new word (as we do in saying database or software), and thus he condemns in 1Corinthians and 1Timothy what was condemned in Leviticus.

_________________________________________

He concludes from his research that the Bible in its entirety, as with 1Corinthians specifically, offers sparse and ambiguous evidence concerning male-male sexual relationships, and is “conditioned by cultural perceptions and behavioral patterns too alien to those of modern times to provide an adequate basis for a contemporary ethic of homosexuality as homosexuality is currently understood.�14 If a case is to be made for or against the morality of homosexuality as it is understood in contemporary society, Elliott argues, it will have to be made on evidence other than 1Corinthians6:9-10 and other similar passages contained in the Bible.
A Dubious Hope. Elliott’s argument does offer additional backing to White’s argument. However, we need search no further than theologian Robert A.J. Gagnon’s excellent rebuttal to the type of argument put forth by Elliott.15 Space constraints will not permit the development of the details of any one particular proposition he puts forth, but a summary of the most prevalent points makes a case strong enough to call in to question Elliott’s support of White’s argument and, in turn, White’s argument itself.
Proposition 1. To broaden the word arsenokoitai to include exploitive heterosexual intercourse appears unlikely in view of the unqualified nature of the Levitical prohibitions.16
Proposition 2. In every instance in which the arsenokoit word group occurs in a context that offers clues as to its meaning (i.e., beyond mere inclusion in a vice list), it denotes homosexual intercourse.17
Proposition 3. The term arsenokoitai itself indicates an inclusive sense: all men who play the active role in homosexual intercourse. Had Paul intended to single out pederasts he could have used the technical term paiderastïs.18
Proposition 4. The meaning that Paul gave to arsenokoitai has to be unpacked in light of Romans1:24-27. When Paul speaks of the sexual intercourse of “males with males� (arsenes en arsenes) in v.27, he obviously has in mind arsenokoitai.19
Based on these propositions and others he explores, Gagnon boldly states that “others would have us believe that it is an open question whether arsenokoitai in Paul’s mind would have applied to all forms of same-sex intercourse, including the kinds of non-exploitative forms allegedly manifested in our contemporary context,� but “this dubious hope has to be maintained in the face of many additional obstacles.�20 Gagnon concludes that 1Corinthians6:9 confirms that Paul’s rejection of homosexual conduct is just as applicable for believers as for unbelievers and that it is self-evident, then, that the combination of terms, malakoi and arsenokoitai, are correctly understood in our contemporary context when they are applied to every conceivable type of same-sex intercourse.
Having more closely documented the particular use of the word arsenokoitai and its consistent witness in the NT, we have discovered that homosexual sin in 1Corinthians6:9-10 isn’t as culturally relevant as many who support the pro-homosexual agenda to normalize aberrant sexual behavior would have us believe.
- C. Wayne Mayhall
http://www.equip.org/articles/is-arseno ... an-books-3

Incidentally, Romans 3:10 tells us that NONE are righteous ...no, not one. According to the previous (above) text, does this mean that we're ALL goners regardless as to how we might qualify for the rest of the list?

Why stop there sir? Your answer was provided Romans 3:

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Avoid sexual immorality

Maybe I will ...but not because I'm instructed to do so by an ancient parchment. That said, are you preaching this message to the overwhelming number of heterosexuals who engage in 'sexual immorality' on a daily basis? Do you know what the most popular sites on the Internet are? The 'gay' sex sites? Try again!

But, of course ...no Christian would participate in these kinds of sites ...

Of course. I do preach that two wrongs do not and cannot make a right. Not even dozens and dozens of wrongs. Not even a congenital orientation for sinning can make it right.

I have the freedom to do anything, but not everything is helpful. I have the freedom to do anything, but I won’t be controlled by anything. Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, and yet God will do away with both. The body isn't for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. God has raised the Lord and will raise us through his power. Don’t you know that your bodies are parts of Christ? So then, should I take parts of Christ and make them a part of someone who is sleeping around? No way! Don’t you know that anyone who is joined to someone who is sleeping around is one body with that person? The scripture says, The two will become one flesh. The one who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. Avoid sexual immorality! Every sin that a person can do is committed outside the body, except those who engage in sexual immorality commit sin against their own bodies.

- This was written by Paul to Christians in Corinth. Greek Christians in Corinth and of course others. 1 Corinthians 6

Good for Paul.

Yeah, he is an amazing guy.

If we need to take advice from anyone then I guess we should take advice from a man who advised that those who lust after a woman should rather marry that woman ...always a good foundation for a successful marriage!

I think he said to just get married. Rather than to be all pent up all the time. How many people can marry Katy Perry? If you know what I mean.

And, from a man who chose to remain single and, we may assume, celibate, but was nevertheless an expert on sex!

Wow, what a way to suffer. It reminds me of something I once read and posted here:

“Lord,� Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man (Saul/Paul) and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.�

But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.�

- Acts 9

Can you imagine? Being in Rome and not being able to "indulge" every whim? IN ROME?

Guess the Lord wasn't joking.

This Paul:

. . . The Lord replied, “Go! This man is the agent I have chosen to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites.

- Acts 9

Oh, THAT Paul. Okay.[/quote]

That Paul.

[KCKID]

While I am not going to watch the video, could you tell me if they are Jews or Christians stoning the woman?

I think the point was that your god wanted that same act to happen performed by the jews on the jews as he prescribed. Your god thinks that sort of act (in the video) is a good idea for people he finds deserving. Your god desired that same act. Your god. Your god. Your god. Be proud of serving him.

I am humbled to serve Him.

Yes, the consequences for not serving Him (eternal hell-fire) would certainly humble a person.

I notice with fascination, that in the following, that "pride" in proclaiming one's sexual behavior is strikingly absent from the list:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

You SO cheapened that list from The Beatitudes, probably the best loved portion of the Gospel, with your above remark and I doubt that you even realize this . . .

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

You might also have noticed with fascination that "Blessed are the self-deluded" was also missing from the above list but this doesn't mean that some such people in that frame of mind don't exist.

And of course, preaching the repentance of sins, even though it gets a Christian called all sorts of hysterically nasty labels, is an important part what Christian love is all about.

Whether one repents or not for whatever it is they're repenting from is really none of your business. Making sure that your own backyard is kept clean and 'repentance' for your own 'Bible misdemeanors' is what you should probably be more concerned with.

[KCKID]

KCKID

While I am not going to watch the video,

Why not? Squeamish? I don't blame you. This video infuriates me. However, stoning people (women) for adultery is a command of God. This is the very same God you'll be worshiping in church in a day or two. The very same God that you are "humbled to serve" ...as per your below post.

I do not worship the Muslim god. And yes, I am squeamish. Many Christians have been slaughtered by Muslims now. A Sudanese Christian woman is facing death right now. So absolutely YES, I am squeamish to see a stoning.

And yet, you're humbled to serve - whatever that might mean in reality - the very God that gave such a command. You also single out a "Christian" woman and imply that we show more concern for her simply by virtue of her "Christianity" than for the poor Muslim woman in the video. Does something not compute here ...?

could you tell me if they are Jews or Christians stoning the woman?

Well, as Hatuey already pointed out, WHO is doing the stoning is not the point. Stoning someone to death is stoning someone to death REGARDLESS of who is doing it. However, since you ask, these wretched murderers are apparently Muslims from 'somewhere in Africa' according to the comments. I'll make my point again ...stoning people to death was a command of God!

They are Muslims. That's all I wanted to know.

Maybe I'm missing some point here. Are the stones that Muslims kill their victims with somehow sharper than the stones God commanded 'HIS' people to throw?

And Christians do not oppose homosexuality based on L-20:13,

While I realize that this is not what you mean, I'd say that it could be reasoned fairly accurately that people are against homosexuality for reasons other than "what the Bible sez."

Many non Christian people do not celebrate gay sex and those that enjoy it. Tolerance is not celebration.

That's right. And it's because this is right that leads me to conclude that many, probably even most, Christians, just like nonchristians, disapprove of gay people for reasons other than "because the Bible sez." But, they deceitfully continue to use "God" as their reason for disapproval anyway.

Whatever, Christians who might well have a personal fear/loathing of homosexuality persistently USE Leviticus and a few other scriptures (a few is all there are) as support for homophobia and bigotry.

Homophobia and bigotry do not fit the nature of the opposition to same gender sex acts. They are neologisms that are more propaganda than rational.

I think, that whatever way one cares to slice it, aversion to homosexuality to the exclusion of the many 'sins' that Christians either turn a blind eye to or practice themselves, could very well be tagged with the 'homophobia' or/and 'bigotry' labels. That said, I try to avoid applying those terms to specific people.

And, of course, many others appear to just parrot what they've been brainwashed with over the years.

Brainwashed? When there is not one single piece of scripture that even remotely supports homosexuality . . . and you dare use the word brainwashed?????

A statement followed by so many ????? just has to be taken as being authoritative!

<snip to keep post short>

Cont'd (maybe) . . .

[master_blaster]

Where is the "love" for the Christian that is trying to get rid of sin and sinning in their life? Where is the "love" from homosexuals for the Christian in the 21st century that is trying to live as a Christian should?

This is totally baseless. I'm gay and have Christian friends/family. I don't care what efforts they make to not 'sin' themselves, just don't be a raging lunatic thumper about it. Don't nag me about going to church or reading the bible more or 'repenting'. It's not going to work, for one thing.

[99percentatheism]

master_blaster

Where is the "love" for the Christian that is trying to get rid of sin and sinning in their life? Where is the "love" from homosexuals for the Christian in the 21st century that is trying to live as a Christian should?

This is totally baseless.

It's part of tolerance and diversity in a multi-cultural society. Something I hear harped on and on about by the proponents of gay pride. I guess I mistakenly thought it meant more than just one group. But the agenda and all . . .

I'm gay and have Christian friends/family.

Why do I need to know that? How you desire to have sex is none of my business. Er, worldview. I guess it has to be whatever business I'm in.

I don't care what efforts they make to not 'sin' themselves, just don't be a raging lunatic thumper about it.

You're preaching to a choir member her sir. I do not preach anything to the LGBT community. They are not part of my Church scene. I wish gay pride thumpers were in every facet of society. I sympathize with having to endure self-serving judgmental people forcing their ways on anyone. You must not have read many of my posts. I want that gay pride flag flying as far away from my Church as it can get. I do though want to see it displayed in places I can easily avoid.

Don't nag me about going to church or reading the bible more or 'repenting'. It's not going to work, for one thing.

I couldn't agree more. I believe that Paul wrote what he did in Romans and elsewhere via absolute fact.

"You, I," I wish that we didn't have to answer in these threads in such personal ways. But, the agenda and all. I realize why this is so. My positions here are fact based for what Christians should tolerate and "yoke" themselves to. For example, there is not one shred of reality for same sex marriage anywhere in the New Testament or of the Old Testament. Anyone teaching that there is, should be categorized properly. Notice that you distance yourself from Christian life, and you do so as a matter of civil rights. And you should not bear any hate for this. You are making a free will choice. OK. And we should be able to distance ourselves from the gay community too with the exact same kind of right to do so without bearing hate, scorn and lawsuits.

[KCKID]

Yes, it's an appalling state of affairs but that's the way it seems to be. You, 99percent, have stated a number of times that "God says that homosexuality is an abomination" so - CLEARLY - YOU use Leviticus 20:13 when it suits your purpose.

I believe in reality.

And Leviticus 20:13 and the penalty of death is the reality that you believe in?

My usage is historical and accurate. But only a brainwashed person could make the accusation that the Gospel calls for stoning people of any kind of sin behavior.

Quote me there too.

I might quote you if I could make sense of what you're talking about. In one breath you're saying that homosexuality is an abomination (as per Leviticus 20:13) and in the next you're saying that homosexuality is still an abomination (so-called) but the previous death penalty as imposed by God has now been removed. By whom? Where are we told this in scripture?

But I do wish that you would stop addressing me personally.

I bolded that for a reason.

I'm addressing the contents of your post which, in turn, leads me to addressing the author of these posts. You are 99percent, are you not?

Would you like me to produce a recent post of yours in which you use Leviticus 20:13 to make your argument against homosexuality? Or, would you rather withdraw your above statement?

Like I said, the Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is not good. et al.

Well played ...well, not really. Sounds like a cop out to me. You sound like a typical Australian politician. Whether or not that's considered to be a personal attack depends on what one's views are of Australian politicians.

nor do they preach the death penalty for people that engage in homosexuality.

Then why use Leviticus 20:13 AT ALL to toss at gay people? Why use the 'abomination' part but come to a screeching halt at the 'death penalty' part? Do you understand, 99percent, why more and more people are rejecting this brand of 'hypocritical Christianity'?

Dead people cannot repent. Christian love has nothing to do with killing people. Not one place in the New Testament supports or condones killing anyone that sins. In fact, you see the exact opposite. The EXACT opposite.

Then by all means stop using one half of Leviticus 20:13 with which to condemn homoseuality. It should be all or nothing.

Now, I believe, not even those people that protest funerals of soldiers right?

Do you mean those that carry the banners, "Fags Must Die! See Leviticus 20:13" ...? Do you mean those ones?

There is no place in the Gospels or the rest of the New Testament that condones that kind of behavior either. And like it or not, L-20:13 is reality.

Then stop using Leviticus 20:13 to condemn homosexuals! As for that scripture being reality I'm not sure WHOSE reality you're talking about. It couldn't be further from reality.

But the following loving pronouncement is motivating for Christians "throughout the ages:

Don’t you know that people who are unjust won’t inherit God’s kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Those who are sexually immoral, those who worship false gods, adulterers, both participants in same-sex intercourse, thieves, the greedy, drunks, abusive people, and swindlers won’t inherit God’s kingdom. That is what some of you used to be! But you were washed clean, you were made holy to God, and you were made right with God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Where did the bolded part appear from? This is the same text (1 Corinthians 6:9) from the KJV:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

That is understood as referencing same gender sexual behavior. What you define as homosexuality in today's world.

It's understood by an increasing number of people these days as "monkeying with scripture".

Which of the above terms, 'fornicators', idolaters', 'adulterers', effeminate' or 'abusers of themselves' translates to mean homosexuality? Please ...let me know ASAP so that I can make a note of this for future discussions.

Leviticus18:22and 20:13 forbid a man lying with another man as one would with a woman. Leviticus was originally written in Hebrew, but Paul was a Greek-educated Jew writing to Gentiles in Greek, the common language of the day, and probably was using the Greek translation of the Old Testament available in that day, the Septuagint, or LXX, for his Scripture quotations.

The Greek translation of these Leviticus passages condemns a man (arseno) lying with (koitai) another man (arseno); these words (excuse the pun) lie side-by-side in these passages in Leviticus. Paul joins these two words together into a neologism, a new word (as we do in saying database or software), and thus he condemns in 1Corinthians and 1Timothy what was condemned in Leviticus.

The lengths that some people (scholars even!) will go to to apply their deep-rooted prejudice against homosexuals is rather staggering. They will even take ancient and conveniently ambiguous biblical texts replacing them with the relatively modern term 'homosexuality' knowing that the majority of Christians will 'buy it' just as they pretty well do with everything else the're told by their leaders. They will do so even at the risk of disobeying the command that forbids adding to or taking away from scriptures. This is otherwise known as 'corruption' and this is exactly what modern Bible authors have done. The term 'homosexual' OR its Hebrew or Greek equivalent was NOT found in the original manuscripts. It's not even found in the KJV!

<snip>

(Cont'd)

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

While I am not going to watch the video, could you tell me if they are Jews or Christians stoning the woman?

I think the point was that your god wanted that same act to happen performed by the jews on the jews as he prescribed. Your god thinks that sort of act (in the video) is a good idea for people he finds deserving. Your god desired that same act. Your god. Your god. Your god. Be proud of serving him.

I am humbled to serve Him.

Yes, the consequences for not serving Him (eternal hell-fire) would certainly humble a person.

It's fascinating that so many non Christians bring up hell. When Christians think in terms of John 3:16 and what an "amazing" gift Jesus has given us. That's completely fascinating. Hell is the furthest thing on our minds. Literally, the furthest.

I notice with fascination, that in the following, that "pride" in proclaiming one's sexual behavior is strikingly absent from the list:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

You SO cheapened that list from The Beatitudes, probably the best loved portion of the Gospel, with your above remark and I doubt that you even realize this . . .

Your opinion is duly noted. But still, "pride" in the way one desires sex does not fit the Beatitudes.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

You might also have noticed with fascination that "Blessed are the self-deluded" was also missing from the above list but this doesn't mean that some such people in that frame of mind don't exist.

I have pointed out enough neologisms and propaganda to make it clear who are the brainwashed and who aren't. Notice that I just use scripture the way the writers of it do. No "agenda" no brainwashing tactics to drive a "new" sexual paradigm. Just honesty and accuracy.

Is there any way that we can stop with the personalizing of this debate?

And of course, preaching the repentance of sins, even though it gets a Christian called all sorts of hysterically nasty labels, is an important part what Christian love is all about.

Whether one repents or not for whatever it is they're repenting from is really none of your business. Making sure that your own backyard is kept clean and 'repentance' for your own 'Bible misdemeanors' is what you should probably be more concerned with.

When sinners demand to use my back yard (front yard and society) to engage in and promote their sins and sinning, it is very much my business.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

Yes, it's an appalling state of affairs but that's the way it seems to be. You, 99percent, have stated a number of times that "God says that homosexuality is an abomination" so - CLEARLY - YOU use Leviticus 20:13 when it suits your purpose.

I believe in reality.

And Leviticus 20:13 and the penalty of death is the reality that you believe in?

I am a Christian. Do the math.

My usage is historical and accurate. But only a brainwashed person could make the accusation that the Gospel calls for stoning people of any kind of sin behavior.

Quote me there too.

I might quote you if I could make sense of what you're talking about. In one breath you're saying that homosexuality is an abomination (as per Leviticus 20:13) and in the next you're saying that homosexuality is still an abomination (so-called) but the previous death penalty as imposed by God has now been removed. By whom? Where are we told this in scripture?

I am a Christian. Jesus, THE God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, has taught us how to live our lives. It's a fairly simple read, the Gospels. Nothing is hidden on how we should deal with sin and sinning and sinners. And, even those that tell us to buzz off. AND for those that persecute us even.

But I do wish that you would stop addressing me personally.

I bolded that for a reason.

I'm addressing the contents of your post which, in turn, leads me to addressing the author of these posts. You are 99percent, are you not?

Just address the positions. Like this one: There is no support, condoning, affirming or celebration for same gender sex acts anywhere in the New Testament. And definitely there are admonishments against it.

Would you like me to produce a recent post of yours in which you use Leviticus 20:13 to make your argument against homosexuality? Or, would you rather withdraw your above statement?

Like I said, the Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is not good. et al.

Well played ...well, not really. Sounds like a cop out to me. You sound like a typical Australian politician. Whether or not that's considered to be a personal attack depends on what one's views are of Australian politicians.

The Gospels make it clear that Jesus is the Judge of people's souls. Not me. As you point out so often, I am to be concerned with the stuff in my own eyes first. Then of course the contending for the faith part is next. Jude is more important to me than MSNBC and the DNC.

You are free to invent any kind of religion you'd like. Why can't LGBT's and the other letters now attached to those . . . do what Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do. Just invent your own religion and have at your religious lives in your own buildings?

nor do they preach the death penalty for people that engage in homosexuality.

Then why use Leviticus 20:13 AT ALL to toss at gay people? Why use the 'abomination' part but come to a screeching halt at the 'death penalty' part? Do you understand, 99percent, why more and more people are rejecting this brand of 'hypocritical Christianity'?

Christianity is not a popularity contest nor an Awards Show on Nickelodeon. The Gospels make it clear how Christians are to behave towards adversaries. No stones can be applied. Just "love" for the sinner. You've never read the Gospels?

Dead people cannot repent. Christian love has nothing to do with killing people. Not one place in the New Testament supports or condones killing anyone that sins. In fact, you see the exact opposite. The EXACT opposite.

Then by all means stop using one half of Leviticus 20:13 with which to condemn homoseuality. It should be all or nothing.

KID, you and I have been at this for a very long time. I wish I could rid myself of your personalizing this but obviously I must endure this. I have quoted scriptures from all over the New Testament to prove how inappropriate gay pride and the gay agenda is in comparison to Christian life. I have used scripture after scripture that are not even close to L-20:13. The only trouble I bring to people that demand to have their homosexuality celebrated is if they are allergic to the dust from my shoes.

Now, I believe, not even those people that protest funerals of soldiers right?

Do you mean those that carry the banners, "Fags Must Die! See Leviticus 20:13" ...? Do you mean those ones?

There is no place in the Gospels or the rest of the New Testament that condones that kind of behavior either. And like it or not, L-20:13 is reality.

Then stop using Leviticus 20:13 to condemn homosexuals! As for that scripture being reality I'm not sure WHOSE reality you're talking about. It couldn't be further from reality.

If you could go back through ALL OF MY scriptures usage, you would have scant evidence that I rely on L-20:13 for proving the how inappropriate the gay agenda is for Christians. Jude speaks to this generation far more than a Levite.

But the following loving pronouncement is motivating for Christians "throughout the ages:

Don’t you know that people who are unjust won’t inherit God’s kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Those who are sexually immoral, those who worship false gods, adulterers, both participants in same-sex intercourse, thieves, the greedy, drunks, abusive people, and swindlers won’t inherit God’s kingdom. That is what some of you used to be! But you were washed clean, you were made holy to God, and you were made right with God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Where did the bolded part appear from? This is the same text (1 Corinthians 6:9) from the KJV:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

It's from the CEB version. An accurate interpretation seeing what has transpired of late in the world and its ways. Arsenokoitai is what became defined as homo sexuality. That isn't even debatable to Mel White.

That is understood as referencing same gender sexual behavior. What you define as homosexuality in today's world.

It's understood by an increasing number of people these days as "monkeying with scripture".

Oh you gotta be kidding? Like calling a man another man's husband? OR WIFE? A woman calling another woman her "wife?" (I've never heard a lesbian refer to her "life partner" as a husband. I'm sure i no why. THAT isn't just monkeying with scripture it is preaching another Gospel. Look up that term. It is ominous for the neologism.

Which of the above terms, 'fornicators', idolaters', 'adulterers', effeminate' or 'abusers of themselves' translates to mean homosexuality? Please ...let me know ASAP so that I can make a note of this for future discussions.

Leviticus18:22and 20:13 forbid a man lying with another man as one would with a woman. Leviticus was originally written in Hebrew, but Paul was a Greek-educated Jew writing to Gentiles in Greek, the common language of the day, and probably was using the Greek translation of the Old Testament available in that day, the Septuagint, or LXX, for his Scripture quotations.

The Greek translation of these Leviticus passages condemns a man (arseno) lying with (koitai) another man (arseno); these words (excuse the pun) lie side-by-side in these passages in Leviticus. Paul joins these two words together into a neologism, a new word (as we do in saying database or software), and thus he condemns in 1Corinthians and 1Timothy what was condemned in Leviticus.

The lengths that some people (scholars even!) will go to to apply their deep-rooted prejudice against homosexuals is rather staggering.

And that is not an example of brainwashing? There is ONLY condemnation for "homosexuality and homosexuals" to be gleaned from scripture. There is not word of "affirming" anywhere. So who is brainwashed in all of this?

They will even take ancient and conveniently ambiguous biblical texts replacing them with the relatively modern term 'homosexuality' knowing that the majority of Christians will 'buy it' just as they pretty well do with everything else the're told by their leaders. They will do so even at the risk of disobeying the command that forbids adding to or taking away from scriptures. This is otherwise known as 'corruption' and this is exactly what modern Bible authors have done. The term 'homosexual' OR its Hebrew or Greek equivalent was NOT found in the original manuscripts. It's not even found in the KJV!

Arsenokoitai is IN scripture from the original texts. Preaching that homosexuality is appropriate for Christians is based on a new paradigm of morality. And, a new paradigm of theology. Hmmmmmmm.

<snip>

(Cont'd)

Hopefully not with so much personalizing.

KCKID, you have produced a list of "gay affirming denominations." Why can't LGBT's find their religious solace there and allow Christians that adhere to the historic Christian life live as they see fit?

[Haven]

When sinners demand to use my back yard (front yard and society) to engage in and promote their sins and sinning, it is very much my business.

Just like how you "want that gay pride flag [sic] as far away from [your] Church [sic] as possible," I want your brand of Christianity as far away from my life, my relationships, and the LGBTQ+ community as possible. If I can respect your wishes, why can't you respect mine?

If fundamentalists would just stop harassing LGBTQ+ people, no one would care what you guys believed. But the minute you "True Christiansâ„¢" bring your inane delusions and asinine, self-righteous rabid hate into our lives, it becomes our business as LGBTQ+ people and allies (both Christian and non-Christian) to protect our rights and speak out against the abomination that is your ludicrous bigotry.

[99percentatheism]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Christians don't support a lot of people groups. Why the incessant demands of "LGB people" (what happened to the T's and everyone else?) that we have to support their desires?

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?

Yes.

From Jude (of course):

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.� These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts . . .

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith . . .

keep yourselves in God’s love . . .

Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh

- Jude

- Love the sinner, not the sin.