references to God

[Elijah John]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

And I think I understand the motivation, in that such references are most probably a desire to remain gender neutral, because a lot of folks are uncomfortable with calling God "He" or referring to Him in masculine terms. Fair enough.

But most of us Theists know that the masculine pronoun is due to the limitations of the English language, and some of us realize that such usage may be unneccesarily anthropromorphic to some who doubt the very existance of God.

But is the word "it" any better when referring to God?

Many theologians consider the word "it" to be limiting as well, in reference to God. And many of them say that God is no THING. "It" implies a "thing".

What I am trying to say, for those non-believers who also want to treat the subject of theism with respect and in the interest of civility, would you consider humoring us Theists by using the pronouns "He" when referring to God, or "She" if referring to a Goddess?

The word "it" in reference to God sounds demeaning and disrespectful to us believers. Obviously if one just does not care, one may consider my request unreasonable. And no one is questioning your RIGHT to call God "it".

But on the other hand, many who are quick to embrace the latest politically correct terminology from the Left will use whatever phrase is requested or dictated to them, newly fashionable acronyms such as "LGBT", or not LGBTQ" rights, instead of simply the old fashioned "gay rights" without a second thought.

So why not show us Theists the same respect, even if you do not respect our beliefs?
The "why or why not" is the question for debate, and is this request in and of itself yet another attempt of a Theist to control behavior?

If so, why do you accept control of speech from the political Left, but not from a politically neutral perspective in matters of Spiritual terminology? Is there a double standard here?

Or what may be some alternatives that every one could be happy with?

Believe me, we get it, if you were to call God "He" we would not think all of a sudden you converted or changed your fundamental world view. We would just consider it a sign of respect.

[Elijah John]

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[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

Since thousands of "gods" are proposed, worshiped, loved, feared by humans does any one of them merit exclusive use of the term or name "god" (perhaps capitalized)? Likewise, does any one merit capitalizing "he" or "him" (let alone all caps)?

It seems to me as though the term "god" is generic -- even though people attach particular reverence for their favorite.

I capitalize Jesus since that is a personal name (whether the person was real or fictional).

My English teacher genes are kicking in here.

For one thing, I am annoyed by the modern insistence upon using 'he or she' when referring to someone whose sex is not known. What's the matter with the old fashioned 'he?" It refers to both sexes when the identity of the person is not known. When it is known, then of course the proper pronoun should be used.

As to deity, simple respect...not for the beliefs, but rather for the people who hold them...would dictate that one use the pronoun they use to describe the deity they worship. If they think God is a "he,' then refer to Him that way. Oh, and capitalize the pronouns. That way everybody knows Who you are talking about.

By the same token, if the believers are talking about a goddess, rather than a god, then by all means refer to Her as "She,' (if, that is, they capitalize the pronouns) if only because doing so avoids taking the conversation down useless avenues.

It's not theology. It's grammar.

And common courtesy. Doing so does NOT indicate that you agree with the believer or share his beliefs, after all. It simply shows that you graduated from high school having paid attention in English class.

Good points though, regarding the capitalization of pronouns for grammatical reasons, that I had not previously or fully considered.

[JoeyKnothead]

When folks quit promoting the "love" of a god that considers me a fool, or all my works other'n good, well then I reckon they expose themselves to potential respect.

But as long as they continue to revere a book, or a god that doesn't respect me, the booger flickin' will continue.

[Zzyzx]

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But as long as they continue to revere a book, or a god that doesn't respect me, the booger flickin' will continue.

Moderator Comment

We'll have no booger flickin in these here woods.

Be respectful of others even in jest and even if they are less than respectful of you.

Please review the Rules.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 7 by dianaiad]

Your points are valid only if it comes to a type of (more) professional type of setting. This is NOT a professional setting. So while, yes, it should be some of the ways you outlined, it's not required here - maybe not even necessary.

As to deity, simple respect...not for the beliefs, but rather for the people who hold them...

Respect is earned, not freely given simply because one's belief in magic, a god or the like.

...and capitalize the pronouns. That way everybody knows Who you are talking about.

Necessary only if one can't read in context &/or the writer isn't clear enough in their description. Besides, if there's a question as to whom one is speaking about, simply ask.
There's WAY too much assumption in this place. Is it site specific or theme specific...?

[Peter]

I don't respect gods any more than I respect leprechauns. I don't respect any persons belief in gods or leprechauns. Not respecting a persons beliefs has no bearing on how I respect the person themselves. Now in the real world I'm usually careful not to upset a theist by revealing my utter lack of respect for their beliefs but here, well, not so much as you might guess. If you believe in gods or leprechauns and I make it perfectly clear that I don't respect that belief please don't construe that as disrespect towards you personally. I'm really a nice guy.

[Ooberman]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

And I think I understand the motivation, in that such references are most probably a desire to remain gender neutral, because a lot of folks are uncomfortable with calling God "He" or referring to Him in masculine terms. Fair enough.

But most of us Theists know that the masculine pronoun is due to the limitations of the English language, and some of us realize that such usage may be unneccesarily anthropromorphic to some who doubt the very existance of God.

But is the word "it" any better when referring to God?

Many theologians consider the word "it" to be limiting as well, in reference to God. And many of them say that God is no THING. "It" implies a "thing".

What I am trying to say, for those non-believers who also want to treat the subject of theism with respect and in the interest of civility, would you consider humoring us Theists by using the pronouns "He" when referring to God, or "She" if referring to a Goddess?

The word "it" in reference to God sounds demeaning and disrespectful to us believers. Obviously if one just does not care, one may consider my request unreasonable. And no one is questioning your RIGHT to call God "it".

But on the other hand, many who are quick to embrace the latest politically correct terminology from the Left will use whatever phrase is requested or dictated to them, newly fashionable acronyms such as "LGBT", or not LGBTQ" rights, instead of simply the old fashioned "gay rights" without a second thought.

So why not show us Theists the same respect, even if you do not respect our beliefs?
The "why or why not" is the question for debate, and is this request in and of itself yet another attempt of a Theist to control behavior?

If so, why do you accept control of speech from the political Left, but not from a politically neutral perspective in matters of Spiritual terminology? Is there a double standard here?

Or what may be some alternatives that every one could be happy with?

Believe me, we get it, if you were to call God "He" we would not think all of a sudden you converted or changed your fundamental world view. We would just consider it a sign of respect.

How about as a sign of respect for us, you let us use our own words? I see no reason why we should be forced by your perception of civility.

"It" is fine. God is an "it". It's a concept, and even if it exists, it's not a He or She.

It's not a big deal.

[Elijah John]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

And I think I understand the motivation, in that such references are most probably a desire to remain gender neutral, because a lot of folks are uncomfortable with calling God "He" or referring to Him in masculine terms. Fair enough.

But most of us Theists know that the masculine pronoun is due to the limitations of the English language, and some of us realize that such usage may be unneccesarily anthropromorphic to some who doubt the very existance of God.

But is the word "it" any better when referring to God?

Many theologians consider the word "it" to be limiting as well, in reference to God. And many of them say that God is no THING. "It" implies a "thing".

What I am trying to say, for those non-believers who also want to treat the subject of theism with respect and in the interest of civility, would you consider humoring us Theists by using the pronouns "He" when referring to God, or "She" if referring to a Goddess?

The word "it" in reference to God sounds demeaning and disrespectful to us believers. Obviously if one just does not care, one may consider my request unreasonable. And no one is questioning your RIGHT to call God "it".

But on the other hand, many who are quick to embrace the latest politically correct terminology from the Left will use whatever phrase is requested or dictated to them, newly fashionable acronyms such as "LGBT", or not LGBTQ" rights, instead of simply the old fashioned "gay rights" without a second thought.

So why not show us Theists the same respect, even if you do not respect our beliefs?
The "why or why not" is the question for debate, and is this request in and of itself yet another attempt of a Theist to control behavior?

If so, why do you accept control of speech from the political Left, but not from a politically neutral perspective in matters of Spiritual terminology? Is there a double standard here?

Or what may be some alternatives that every one could be happy with?

Believe me, we get it, if you were to call God "He" we would not think all of a sudden you converted or changed your fundamental world view. We would just consider it a sign of respect.

How about as a sign of respect for us, you let us use our own words? I see no reason why we should be forced by your perception of civility.

"It" is fine. God is an "it". It's a concept, and even if it exists, it's not a He or She.

It's not a big deal.

It was a simple request, not a demand. If you care about the sensibilities of us Theists, it is appreciated. But I take from your answer that you do not care, and your contempt is noted.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 17 by Elijah John]

Perhaps all of us could and should be more respectful of the convictions of others and more civil toward one another.

Unfortunately, many become quite emotional in defending or opposing various positions. Often it is fanatical theists who set the tone of incivility (as indicated by their overwhelming presence in the banned list).

If someone chooses to slap me around for "atheistic" views (incorrectly and inadvisedly) it takes a lot of restraint to keep from replying in kind (though I try to keep debate on the idea level rather than personality level).

[Ooberman]

But I take from your answer that you do not care, and your contempt is noted.

Then we understand each other.

Next some Theist will ask that we write PBUH every time we mention Jesus, and some will insist that we should write "Jesus our Lord and Savior".

How about we speak as we wish to speak so that people understand our position, not try to placate everyone?

[Elijah John]

But I take from your answer that you do not care, and your contempt is noted.

Then we understand each other.

Next some Theist will ask that we write PBUH every time we mention Jesus, and some will insist that we should write "Jesus our Lord and Savior".

How about we speak as we wish to speak so that people understand our position, not try to placate everyone?

I agree, that would be going too far. And I would be against that, but that is different than what I was requesting.

Just wonderin' should we also try to placate the political left (or right for that matter) and bow to their dictated speech codes? I want to see how consistent you are in your objections to being dictated to.

A lot of folks are all too willing and quick to adopt the latest speech patterns and verbiage the Left insists on, and if not, if we do not like political correctness, we are called "haters", "racists", "homophobes" and worse. Throwing around those epithets at the drop of a hat cheapens them, especially when REAL hate, homophobia and racism actually does exist.

And have you heard the latest? "cultural appropriation" is now wrong. Can't do it. Even vocal Obama supporter Katy Perry was called a "racist" for dressing like a geisha. The Left eating their own. People are so damn quick and looking for reasons to be offended nowadays.

My request is mild in comparison to the speech codes of political correctness, and I am not trying to force anything on anybody.

I COULD accuse atheists of all kinds of nefarious motives for their atheism, but I do not, and would not. THAT would be uncivil, and mostly untrue.

I understand that many atheists have real and very rational problems accepting the goodness of God or even the reality of the Deity, (especially in light of so much suffering in the world) and do not judge them for that. Some of those problems we Theists wrestle with as well.

You sure we understand each other now? So if you want respect for your positions and opnions and expressions of opinion, please use some yourselves.