Evolution

[keithprosser3]

Given the nature of reproduction and of natural selection isn't evolution inescapable?
How can evolution not happen?

[KenRU]

[Replying to arian]

Arian,

I can walk you through it if you wish, but first, how do you understand the difference between the brain and the mind?
Does anyone? What kind of question is this? Do I need a PHD in neuroscience to have a conversation with you? Good grief. This question, to me, seems the height of arrogance.

I can hold my own, to answer your question. What are your qualifications, my friend?

Second, how much of the Bible do you know?
I didnt realize I needed to provide a resume to have a conversation with you. This is ridiculous.

But Ill play along, if for no other reason than a laugh. I was brought up Catholic. Recd most of my sacraments, attended CCD for many years. So, yes, I have a decent understanding of the bible. How much of the bible do you really know? It is my experience that I know more about the bible than most Christians.

Third, how well can you comprehend quantum theory
Not very well, to be frank. And, oddly, Im not embarrassed in the least by it. How well do you comprehend Quantum Theory?

But heres the interesting part. Nothing I said requires knowledge of Quantum Theory. I said what you asserted cannot be proven and is pure guesswork. Show me where I am wrong.

can you differentiate between a good theory and a bad one?
Scientifically or via common language and usage? Seems to me that you are purposefully clouding the issue.

I mean come on, .. belief is without evidence?
I said faith is belief without evidence (ignoring the fact that the bible asks its supplicants to do this very thing). So, yes. Given that god (in the bible) is asking you to believe without proof, Im pretty sure your indignity is warrantless.

May I ask you something? Do you believe that there is this invisible force pulling things to the ground? Sure, .. you may say, because everyone believes it, right? It's just dumb-faith, right?
Are you really equating belief in Gravity with belief in God? Really? These 2 are equal in your mind? Evidence for gravity is easy to observe, can you show me where evidence of god is easy to observe?

Good luck.

Read my posts again, .. do I look like I am guessing here? Just because you don't understand what I am saying, or maybe no one here understands (just for now, .. I hope) does that suggest to you that I am guessing, or going on some 'blind religious faith'?
I understand what you are saying (pretty presumptuous of you to assume otherwise), and yes, I do assert that you appear to be guessing.

I have explained God by the very existence of our own mind, which is the proof and the basis of everything else I told you. But if you think the mind is just a word describing the brains activity, you can never understand God.
While I have read through most of the 116 pages of posts, I admit to skipping over some. So I may have missed your argument explaining how the mind is proof of god. So, if possible, could I have a concise argument explaining this?

Like if you touch something, and the nerves from your fingertip sends signals to the brain, which we can pick up with MRI or whatever, then ask yourself, what made you touch that something? What, your finger?
Um, me? My desires? What makes you so sure were not just more complex animals? Why cant sentiency just be simply an evolutionary adaptation?
While sentiency is a remarkable thing in nature, it may not be as unique as you think. Dolphins and some primates exhibit behavior that very closely resemble higher thinking and sentiency.

So we just 'evolved' morals that came about by the Big-Bang religion, correct?
No, we evolved morals and a conscience because it is in humans' best interests to work and cooperate as a group. Humans, as a species, have a better chance of survival by working together. Seems like a simple concept to me. Surprised you dont see this. Perhaps you dont want to?

I like your 'signature';
Thank you. Its one of my favorite quotes, and I think the quote is salient as it stands, and needs no correcting or adjusting.

Your Mathew 7:15 quote
Brought to you from the same book that says if a child curses his parents, he should be put to death:
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

And that if my brother dies, I should take his wife and have children with her:
"Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother." (Mark 12:19)

Not everything in the bible is worthy of respect, so, I assume you pick and choose which parts to follow?

[Randall]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the evolution of morality...my example would be a serial killer. If you were to walk around killing people whenever it struck your fancy, after some time the surrounding survivors would hunt you down and either lock you up...or kill you.
It is in the best interest of the people to work together otherwise they'd fall prey to wandering psychopaths.
Since according to theists the Jews didn't have a moral guidebook before Moses produced his ten commandments (which being the only time this creator has ever actually written anything down, is quite a pathetic list of things.)how is it that they gathered at Mount Sinai without killing each other? Using this God created morality that theists suggests rules out every other human group that existed before the Hebrews created Jehovah. How do you explain the Egyptians? Romans? Neanderthals??

They seemed to live harmoniously without a Christian God to muck up the works.

The brain and the mind are one. Period. There is no separate entity living in your brain (or big toe for that matter.). Humans are a part of this world just like a cockroach...we are not special except for in the way we celebrate our achievements, like glorified peacocks.

[arian]

[Replying to post 1154 by arian]

Just because the whole book has contradictions, doesn't mean one quote does. That's the fallacy of division.

Besides a history book, the Bible reveals mans distance from his Creator, and describes a way back, .. an awakening from aimless wondering/living. What you think is contradiction is done on purpose to make man stop and ponder on his foolish ways; "Eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" OT
"If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to him the other" NT, .. you see? Same Bible, but two very different messages leading to one purpose, Godly-mindedness.

But bad trees can produce good fruit, and good trees can produce fruit.

You missed the point, even from a simple message as that.

Unless by "bad tree" you mean "a tree that produces bad fruit" and similarly for good fruit, but then it's just a meaninglessly circular tautology that pretends to have more meaning than it does.

Again you missed it, Jesus was telling us that since we are all 'bad trees', He can fix it that we can all become 'good trees' through Him.

The word for the thing pulling the things to the ground is gravity, and the word for things pulling things is force, so saying "the force pulling it to the ground is gravity" isn't a leap of faith, it's a tautology. That's literally what the words mean.

And the word 'Creator' means exactly that too, Creator, .. not created, but Creator. Not a 'creator' created by the created, but a 'Creator'. Do you know what that word 'Creator' means? If you can understand the concept behind gravity, it should be a lot easier to understand the concept behind 'Creator', .. and a hell of a lot easier to understand than the concept behind 'Big-bang Evolution', that's for sure. lol

As for "no evidence", do you seriously believe there's no evidence for gravity?

I believe you are getting it, .. so I ask you now: "Do you seriously believe there is no evidence of a Creator?

Oh, and the decision to touch something? The "thing that made you touch that something"?
That can be picked up by brain interface devices.
Hence the reason there are wheelchairs and devices that you can literally control with your mind. Because your mind is revealed by your brainwaves.

EXACTLY!
Your finger didn't send messages to you brain to control your arm and your finger, the 'mind' did, which as you said: "can be picked up by brain interface devices."


So what can be picked up by brain interface devices?
A. The minds activity on the brain.

[arian]

[Replying to arian]

Arian,

I can walk you through it if you wish, but first, how do you understand the difference between the brain and the mind?

Does anyone? What kind of question is this? Do I need a PHD in neuroscience to have a conversation with you? Good grief. This question, to me, seems the height of arrogance.

No my friend, no PHD, .. I even have to look up what PHD means, .. is it that stuff we put on to cool hemorrhoids? I did not mean to sound arrogant, .. but how do I an unschooled dummy sound convincing on something's I am absolutely sure about without sounding arrogant? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

I can hold my own, to answer your question. What are your qualifications, my friend?

I can see that you can hold your own, .. I am honestly, with all my heart tell you that I am not competing with you or think even for a second that I am smarter than you.
As for my qualifications, .. well, .. my posts should speak for that.

Second, how much of the Bible do you know?
I didnt realize I needed to provide a resume to have a conversation with you. This is ridiculous.

Please, .. no resume, .. I was just asking? I didn't mean to offend you by it, honestly.

But Ill play along, if for no other reason than a laugh. I was brought up Catholic. Recd most of my sacraments, attended CCD for many years. So, yes, I have a decent understanding of the bible. How much of the bible do you really know? It is my experience that I know more about the bible than most Christians.

You know more than most Christians, .. I believe you, thank you.
You see I can quote the Bible, but I have this serious problem remembering which Book, which chapter and verse it was written in. So if you can remember which Book, Chapter and verse a particular Bible quote is written in, you are much better than me. So I didn't mean to butt-heads with you on Scripture, but what I wanted to know is whether or not you understand what the Bible is about? The message in there?
Yes many religious denominations study the Bible, Christian, Muslim, Judaism, .. etc. But I have found out that they don't know the God of the Bible. Each religion has a slightly different interpretation of Bible-God, but none of them are even close to 'knowing' the God of the Bible, .. our Creator "I Am Who I Am", .. so how would they understand the true meaning of the message?

Third, how well can you comprehend quantum theory
Not very well, to be frank. And, oddly, Im not embarrassed in the least by it. How well do you comprehend Quantum Theory?

Well, .. now I know you will take this as an arrogant remark, but from what I have read/watched/listened to over the years from quantum theorists in their quest for their answer for the 'Big Picture', .. to the Big-Questions as to
"Who are we?",
"Where did we come from?" and
"Where are we going?" and last but not the least;
"What's our purpose for existing?"
Through:
Quantum field theory, a generic type of relativistic quantum theory, which includes:
Quantum electrodynamics
Quantum chromodynamics
Electroweak interaction
Quantum gravity, a general term for theories intended to quantize general relativity
Quantum optics
Quantum chemistry

is reasoning from 'within' the box, or from a very limited physical POV, which will NEVER answer these important questions, .. never.
We cannot answer; "Who are we?", "Where did we come from?", "Where are we going?" and "What's our purpose for existing?" looking at 'what' we are made of, and 'how' we are made?

But heres the interesting part. Nothing I said requires knowledge of Quantum Theory. I said what you asserted cannot be proven and is pure guesswork. Show me where I am wrong.

You are correct, and I agree that no quantum theory is required. Like I said, observing what we are made of and how we are made will never answer "Who are we?", "Where did we come from?", "Where are we going?" and "What's our purpose for existing?".

can you differentiate between a good theory and a bad one?
Scientifically or via common language and usage? Seems to me that you are purposefully clouding the issue.

Well, .. it's the common language and usage which reveals whether it is scientific or not, .. right? What I am asking is if you can differentiate between science and sci-fi?

I mean come on, .. belief is without evidence?
I said faith is belief without evidence (ignoring the fact that the bible asks its supplicants to do this very thing). So, yes. Given that god (in the bible) is asking you to believe without proof, Im pretty sure your indignity is warrantless.

Not quite;

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Substance as in matter and material (observing the universe around us - science), then wondering where it came from (using our mind which is not seen) as evidence.

But if you believe that the brain creates the mind, you will never understand this.

May I ask you something? Do you believe that there is this invisible force pulling things to the ground? Sure, .. you may say, because everyone believes it, right? It's just dumb-faith, right?

Are you really equating belief in Gravity with belief in God? Really? These 2 are equal in your mind? Evidence for gravity is easy to observe, can you show me where evidence of god is easy to observe?

Good luck.

You don't need luck if you have faith built on evidence, like gravity. You believe in gravity because of all the evidence, not because you accepted it because of your religion, correct? Now use this knowledge to see what could be evidence for God, our Creator?

Obviously gravity is NOT equal to God, because gravity is a part of the created, like space and light. But our mind is not effected by space, gravity, light or even time. Our mind can dream up and create concepts, correct? The concepts we come up with doesn't create our mind, .. our mind creates the concepts. So the only thing that is outside of this physical reality is our mind, .. so could God be an Eternal, Infinite Creative Mind? And our mind be OF God?

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Read my posts again, .. do I look like I am guessing here? Just because you don't understand what I am saying, or maybe no one here understands (just for now, .. I hope) does that suggest to you that I am guessing, or going on some 'blind religious faith'?

I understand what you are saying (pretty presumptuous of you to assume otherwise), and yes, I do assert that you appear to be guessing.

Guessing becaause ...??

Religion (like the Christian religion for example) will point you to the Bible and give you some Bible quotes mixed in with some of their doctrines to explain God to you, .. as some Devine deity, but I explain God to you from scientific and other observable evidence (like our mind, even though I can't show it to you, you know what I'm talking about since you have one too) .. and THEN use the Bible as supporting evidence!
Science is the evidence of the universe, but we have to step outside of the universe to answer "how it came about?", .. and that's where our mind/spirit comes in.

I have explained God by the very existence of our own mind, which is the proof and the basis of everything else I told you. But if you think the mind is just a word describing the brains activity, you can never understand God.

While I have read through most of the 116 pages of posts, I admit to skipping over some. So I may have missed your argument explaining how the mind is proof of god. So, if possible, could I have a concise argument explaining this?

As I am answering your post, I keep explaining this. Please re-read the post to get glimpses where I explain it in more and more detail.

Like if you touch something, and the nerves from your fingertip sends signals to the brain, which we can pick up with MRI or whatever, then ask yourself, what made you touch that something? What, your finger?

Um, me? My desires? What makes you so sure were not just more complex animals? Why cant sentiency just be simply an evolutionary adaptation?
While sentiency is a remarkable thing in nature, it may not be as unique as you think. Dolphins and some primates exhibit behavior that very closely resemble higher thinking and sentiency.

Yes, obviously all animals exhibit the possession of consciousness and sensory awareness, and that too was given to them by our Creator. But I cannot speak for dolphins or elephants, or even about that talking donkey who said a few words to the angry Prophet, all I can talk about is you and me, humans. It is in us humans that I see characteristics of a God who could create this universe and everything in it. Now if some human would have claimed they created the Universe and everything in it, then I would seek evidence in him/her, but for now, all I have is our characteristics, and that since we didn't create this universe, someone LIKE us could have.
Now I have read in a Book that there is a Being in whose image we were created, only He is Spirit. Now this makes all the sense in the world, we are an image of our Invisible Eternal All mighty Creator. So if we didn't create the universe, then it must have been Him.

So we just 'evolved' morals that came about by the Big-Bang religion, correct?

No, we evolved morals and a conscience because it is in humans' best interests to work and cooperate as a group. Humans, as a species, have a better chance of survival by working together. Seems like a simple concept to me. Surprised you dont see this. Perhaps you dont want to?

Better chance of survival by working together, right? Tell me, how many millions of years did it take man to figure out that working together increased their survival? After how many extinctions before man figured this out?

What gave man the idea that survival is better than extinction? Did 'extinction' teach them this?
Or was it 'before' man was a single celled bacterium: "It is better to be a single celled bacterium then to be non-existent" Then man becomes a single celled bacterium.
"It is better to cooperate with other single celled bacterium then become extinct, and we know this because we know how bad extinction is" ??
Come on, talking about assumptions ?

I like your 'signature';
Thank you. Its one of my favorite quotes, and I think the quote is salient as it stands, and needs no correcting or adjusting.

That sure is a religious statement.

Your Mathew 7:15 quote
Brought to you from the same book that says if a child curses his parents, he should be put to death:
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

Yes, aand .. ?

And that if my brother dies, I should take his wife and have children with her:
"Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother." (Mark 12:19)

Yes, and? What's your point?

Not everything in the bible is worthy of respect, so, I assume you pick and choose which parts to follow?

Of course not everything in there is worthy of respect. Like, why should I respect the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah? But should I disrespect the Bible for telling us about that story?

The Catholic Church (as other Christian Churches) teach people to follow the Bible. When it came to killing Jews, they picked and chose from both old (to kill) and New Testament (because they killed their Messiah) I don't follow the Bible because if I did, from Genesis to Revelations I would run around like a lunatic (Just as the history of Christianity reveals). The Bible is instruction on how to find God and follow what His Spirit teaches us.

[Ooberman]

One mistake i see made by some theists is that they equate the mind with the supernatural because they think the mind is independent of the brain.

This is, of course, not supported by science, the evidence, or anything other than opinion of people who dont know anything about science and the mind.
The first mistake they make is that they arent experts on anything. Next they selectively cite scientists, ignoring the actual science, then they cite their religious text as evidence when it is properly only an ignorant claim.

The mind is what the brain does. There is no evidence to the contrary and all the arguments from ignorance dont change that.

Equating the mind with the supernatural is a great big fallacy of begging the question.
If creationists want to argue from scientific evidence, they should at least be aware of the science.

[Ooberman]

I don't follow the Bible because if I did, from Genesis to Revelations I would run around like a lunatic (Just as the history of Christianity reveals). The Bible is instruction on how to find God and follow what His Spirit teaches us.

[kenblogton]

[Replying to post 1144 by Jashwell]

Jashwell, you incorrectly restate what I say so you can misinterpret it to conveniently maintain your logical fictions, such as
1. there was no beginning of space, time, matter & energy and we cannot say there was nothing before the dense singularity from which evolved the big bang
2. the universe was not caused and its evolution can equivalently be viewed going forward and backward
3. if there was a cause of the universe, it definitely wasn't God

I would remind you that the physical, which you believe is the only reality, is not directly perceived by us; we perceive what is hopefully a reasonable facsimile created by our brains. Brain researchers have identified the posterior superior parietal lobe as the brain area where humans transcend the physical and make contact with God, and they point out that their meditations are as real brain-wise as their perceptions of the physical. They also cite data contrasting psychotic delusions and normal meditations, and note that meditators/religious people live happier, healthier and longer lives.
kenblogton

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 1144 by Jashwell]

Jashwell, you incorrectly restate what I say so you can misinterpret it to conveniently maintain your logical fictions, such as

I wasn't aware directly quoting the posts was incorrectly restating them

1. there was no beginning of space, time, matter & energy and we cannot say there was nothing before the dense singularity from which evolved the big bang

No, the things I've said about this:

If there was nothing before the big bang, it does not mean their was some "ultimate void" in which a God could act prior to the Universe. It means the Universe from the big bang to the infinite future is all there is.

Regardless of whether or not time "began" in a less a-theory biased way (Any verb is a bad choice when speaking of the first point in time), it still means the Universe existed forever. You can't say "Ah! but the Universe didn't exist when time didn't exist" because there isn't a "when time didn't exist", not just for aforementioned reasons but also because the sentence is incoherent.
"At a time when time did not exist"

There ARE various cosmologists that support the view that spacetime did not need to begin, who claim it is not a one sided "spacetime definitely begun".

2. the universe was not caused and its evolution can equivalently be viewed going forward and backward

*there's no given reason to think it was caused (which is not a burdened statement)
*there's no given reason to accept the A-theory of time as objectively descriptive of reality (which is not a burdened statement)

3. if there was a cause of the universe, it definitely wasn't God

I never said this.
The closest I get to saying this is (to paraphrase) "if the beginning of time had a cause, that cause cannot have been before the beginning of time, therefore cause would not need to precede effect and God or a first cause would not be necessary", a failure of the kalam argument.

I would remind you that the physical, which you believe is the only reality, is not directly perceived by us; we perceive what is hopefully a reasonable facsimile created by our brains. Brain researchers have identified the posterior superior parietal lobe as the brain area where humans transcend the physical and make contact with God, and they point out that their meditations are as real brain-wise as their perceptions of the physical. They also cite data contrasting psychotic delusions and normal meditations, and note that meditators/religious people live happier, healthier and longer lives.
kenblogton

1) It doesn't matter whether religious people, spirit mediums, ghostbusters and psychics live happier, healthier and longer lives.
It has no bearing on the truth of the claim they make.

2) The physical is that which is perceived
"Relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete: the physical world" (oxford dictionary)

Reality is our best explanation of the variety of data input we get from our sensors, including all of our senses and the senses of other people and machinery, hence we don't accept individual experience. We compare each sense with our other senses and our current knowledge, and if there are inconsistencies, we find the most reasonable thing to reject.

And no, researchers have not "identified ... the brain area where humans transcend the physical and make contact with God", they've probably identified the region where people believe they transcend the physical and make contact with God.

I'd be surprised if a double blind test with people of various religions gave the same God, too.

[Ooberman]

Isn't the fact that no one can prove there was a cause to the universe a reason for people to stop asserting there was a cause to the universe?

It happened 14.5 billion years ago - if it happened at all (the cause, not the time span).

Unless a member has a time machine, I think it's time we stop asserting unsubstantiated claims like "the universe had a cause".

[kenblogton]

One mistake i see made by some theists is that they equate the mind with the supernatural because they think the mind is independent of the brain.

This is, of course, not supported by science, the evidence, or anything other than opinion of people who dont know anything about science and the mind.
The first mistake they make is that they arent experts on anything. Next they selectively cite scientists, ignoring the actual science, then they cite their religious text as evidence when it is properly only an ignorant claim.

The mind is what the brain does. There is no evidence to the contrary and all the arguments from ignorance dont change that.

Equating the mind with the supernatural is a great big fallacy of begging the question.
If creationists want to argue from scientific evidence, they should at least be aware of the science.

kenblogton replied: I agree with your view "The mind is what the brain does." Let me give you some support from brain researchers Newberg, DAquili, and Rause, who state "The brain is a collection of physical structures that gather and process sensory, cognitive, and emotional data; the mind is the phenomenon of thoughts, memories and emotions that arise from the perceptual processes of the brain. In simpler terms, brain makes mind."
Let me share with you some of what else they say "What we think of as reality is only a rendition of reality that is created by the brain. Our modern understanding of the brains perceptual powers bears this out. Nothing enters consciousness whole. There is no direct, objective experience of reality. The idea that our experience of reality " all our experiences, for that matter " are only secondhand depictions of what may or may not be objectively real, raises some profound questions about the most basic truths of human existence and the neurological nature of spiritual experience." In other words, we do not directly know the physical world.
These same brain researchers have also identified the posterior superior parietal lobe as the brain area where humans transcend the physical and make contact with God, and they point out that human meditations are as real brain-wise as their perceptions of the physical. They also cite data contrasting psychotic delusions and normal meditations, and note that meditators/religious people live happier, healthier and longer lives.
kenblogton