Evolution

[keithprosser3]

Given the nature of reproduction and of natural selection isn't evolution inescapable?
How can evolution not happen?

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1227 by kenblogton]

Still doesn't justify saying that the subject has achieved a transcendent state.
Where is the logic between "this part of the brain is active when he believes he is transcending" to "he is transcending"?

I don't understand your point.
Experimenters have replicated the authors findings with many subjects that, when the subjects said they had achieved a transcendent state, they found, as the book authors found, that "Using a single-photon emission computerized tomography (SPECT) camera, the authors injected radioactive material intravenously then scanned a meditating subject’s brain at the moment he notified them that he had achieved mystical transcendence. The finished scan images showed unusual activity in a specialized bundle of neurons known as the posterior superior parietal lobe, which the authors dubbed the orientation association area, or OAA. (3-4)"
Experimenters also found that, until that transcendent state was achieved, that posterior superior parietal lobe, which the authors dubbed the orientation association area, or OAA, was not activated. Transcendence, to the subjects, means transcending the physical and achieving contact with the spiritual or eternal. The important point to note is that there is a physical neurological link to a person's spiritual activity when they contact the eternal.
Interestingly, the Bible, in Ecclesiastes 3:11 states that God has "set eternity in the hearts of men" and it seems these authors have identified the area where people make contact with the eternal.
kenblogton
kenblogton

What does the Bible verse have to do with this?
The heart is not in your head.

Either way, the study seems to suggest that they found the part of the brain that is active when the subject believes he is transcending.

This shows that said transcendence is happening in the brain. This is what we should expect unless you can show emotions generate from anywhere else besides the brain. How are you making the leap to say that the subject actually transcended and detected a god concept from an observation that shows the transcendent state is happening in the persons mind?

[arian]

All I hear is; "listen Believers in God the Creator, there is no spirit/mind outside of our brain that could interact with our brain and control it, OK! .. but there is dark Matter and Energy which makes up 96% of our universe, see! It cannot be seen or detected (like the spirit/mind I am telling you) comprende! It's there, and it is controlling our entire universe, and planning its fate. Now these are facts observed, .. well not really observed because we cannot detect it or see it yet, but it's there, because we are scientists that can talk about things that cannot be observed or be detected. And we can even tell you what this invisible, undetectable, scientifically unexplainable incredibly powerful thing we call dark matter/energy is planning and doing as we speak! So get with the program arian, and stop this nonsense about this, .. this, .. thing, whatever its name is, god. OK?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBDsvf0CFGI

As for this spirit/mind that operates outside of the human brain, .. well that just don't make any sense. It's stupid and unscientific to even suggest such a thing.

Okey, .. dokey then, I will regress to my animal instinct and just climb back in my tree, put my finger up my but and find my 'happy place' like all good human apes should, and wait for the HAARP signal over America that will drive us humans to an animal-like state with rabies mad where we'll go out in the streets and murder anyone and everyone we see, like in the second 'suggestive and revealing' movie coming out "The Purge Anarchy".

They have been spraying our air for many decades, that we inhale and saturates especially the brain area of the body, and when they aim and turn on HAARP full blast, it will drive us mad like it did to whales, dolphins, bees, birds. These movies are just suggestive to influence our minds to what we should do when this happens.

Once they cut power, the water and food, especially here in the States, mixed with the nerve gas chemicals they have been spraying us with for the past 40 some years, including the fluoride that have been building up in our systems, the movie is a perfect description what will happen next;

"If you're not purging, we advise you to get off the streets. It'll soon be a war out there."

The first Purge movie showed us what the annual "Purge" is like for a family locked inside their own home. The sequel will take the Purge to the streets, revealing the horror that awaits those trapped out in the open when all crime, including murder, is legal for a twelve-hour period.

The Purge: Anarchy is set in the not-so-distant future where -- in an effort to deal with rising crime and unemployment -- the newly formed government allows crime to be legal for one night a year. Citizens aren't merely permitted to "purge" their violence and frustration on each other, but encouraged to do so. While some will lock themselves inside their homes for the night -- see James DeMonaco's 2013 film The Purge -- others from all walks of life take to the streets to unleash their demons.

But there is hope, and the movie 'World War Z' explains this in two hours; "When the food, water, and power is turned off, and HAARP is turned on and men become like mindless zombies attacking each other, we can all get an injection of your choice from dozens of incurable diseases like AIDS, and the Bubonic Plague at your local clinic or hospitals. Or even Walgreens and Walmart will be open for inoculations, and it's all free. This will cause such great suffering and horrific mutations to our bodies, that it will make even the murderous demonically possessed Zombies run from us.

But of course, God has His own plans. Now of course there will be a war like never before in human history, and never will be again, but it will be done with the full 'Free Will' of man. A United One World obedience to that New anti-Christ that all religions are waiting for to "rapture/beam them up" so they could receive their Primo-Post Human 2.0 bodies.

[kenblogton]

[Replying to post 1227 by kenblogton]

Still doesn't justify saying that the subject has achieved a transcendent state.
Where is the logic between "this part of the brain is active when he believes he is transcending" to "he is transcending"?

I don't understand your point.
Experimenters have replicated the authors findings with many subjects that, when the subjects said they had achieved a transcendent state, they found, as the book authors found, that "Using a single-photon emission computerized tomography (SPECT) camera, the authors injected radioactive material intravenously then scanned a meditating subject’s brain at the moment he notified them that he had achieved mystical transcendence. The finished scan images showed unusual activity in a specialized bundle of neurons known as the posterior superior parietal lobe, which the authors dubbed the orientation association area, or OAA. (3-4)"
Experimenters also found that, until that transcendent state was achieved, that posterior superior parietal lobe, which the authors dubbed the orientation association area, or OAA, was not activated. Transcendence, to the subjects, means transcending the physical and achieving contact with the spiritual or eternal. The important point to note is that there is a physical neurological link to a person's spiritual activity when they contact the eternal.
Interestingly, the Bible, in Ecclesiastes 3:11 states that God has "set eternity in the hearts of men" and it seems these authors have identified the area where people make contact with the eternal.
kenblogton
kenblogton

1. What does the Bible verse have to do with this?
The heart is not in your head.

2. Either way, the study seems to suggest that they found the part of the brain that is active when the subject believes he is transcending.

This shows that said transcendence is happening in the brain. This is what we should expect unless you can show emotions generate from anywhere else besides the brain. How are you making the leap to say that the subject actually transcended and detected a god concept from an observation that shows the transcendent state is happening in the persons mind?

Reply to 1. The term "heart" is used as a metaphor, it does not refer to the literal heart.

Reply to 2. The authors make the point that when subjects experience the physical, it is also in the brain; all human experience is in the brain, we do not directly experience the physical or anything else. Experiencing transcendence is no different than experiencing the physical. Therefore, just as we accept that the experience of the physical is real, we can also have confidence that the experience of transcendence is real.
kenblogton

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1227 by kenblogton]

Still doesn't justify saying that the subject has achieved a transcendent state.
Where is the logic between "this part of the brain is active when he believes he is transcending" to "he is transcending"?

I don't understand your point.
Experimenters have replicated the authors findings with many subjects that, when the subjects said they had achieved a transcendent state, they found, as the book authors found, that "Using a single-photon emission computerized tomography (SPECT) camera, the authors injected radioactive material intravenously then scanned a meditating subject’s brain at the moment he notified them that he had achieved mystical transcendence. The finished scan images showed unusual activity in a specialized bundle of neurons known as the posterior superior parietal lobe, which the authors dubbed the orientation association area, or OAA. (3-4)"
Experimenters also found that, until that transcendent state was achieved, that posterior superior parietal lobe, which the authors dubbed the orientation association area, or OAA, was not activated. Transcendence, to the subjects, means transcending the physical and achieving contact with the spiritual or eternal. The important point to note is that there is a physical neurological link to a person's spiritual activity when they contact the eternal.
Interestingly, the Bible, in Ecclesiastes 3:11 states that God has "set eternity in the hearts of men" and it seems these authors have identified the area where people make contact with the eternal.
kenblogton
kenblogton

1. What does the Bible verse have to do with this?
The heart is not in your head.

2. Either way, the study seems to suggest that they found the part of the brain that is active when the subject believes he is transcending.

This shows that said transcendence is happening in the brain. This is what we should expect unless you can show emotions generate from anywhere else besides the brain. How are you making the leap to say that the subject actually transcended and detected a god concept from an observation that shows the transcendent state is happening in the persons mind?

Reply to 1. The term "heart" is used as a metaphor, it does not refer to the literal heart.

How could you possibly know this? We are talking about ancient men here who penned this verse. Perhaps you assume too much?

Reply to 2. The authors make the point that when subjects experience the physical, it is also in the brain; all human experience is in the brain, we do not directly experience the physical or anything else. Experiencing transcendence is no different than experiencing the physical. Therefore, just as we accept that the experience of the physical is real, we can also have confidence that the experience of transcendence is real.
kenblogton

Got it. According to this, it seems we can also have confidence that hallucinations are real too then. Wait....

Either way, where is the logic between "this part of the brain is active when he believes he is transcending" to "he is transcending"?

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 1236 by kenblogton]

Do we also have confidence that all illusions are real, and that other spiritual experiences that are mutually exclusive of a specific branch of Christian ones are also real?

[kenblogton]

[Replying to post 1227 by kenblogton]

Still doesn't justify saying that the subject has achieved a transcendent state.
Where is the logic between "this part of the brain is active when he believes he is transcending" to "he is transcending"?

I don't understand your point.
Experimenters have replicated the authors findings with many subjects that, when the subjects said they had achieved a transcendent state, they found, as the book authors found, that "Using a single-photon emission computerized tomography (SPECT) camera, the authors injected radioactive material intravenously then scanned a meditating subject’s brain at the moment he notified them that he had achieved mystical transcendence. The finished scan images showed unusual activity in a specialized bundle of neurons known as the posterior superior parietal lobe, which the authors dubbed the orientation association area, or OAA. (3-4)"
Experimenters also found that, until that transcendent state was achieved, that posterior superior parietal lobe, which the authors dubbed the orientation association area, or OAA, was not activated. Transcendence, to the subjects, means transcending the physical and achieving contact with the spiritual or eternal. The important point to note is that there is a physical neurological link to a person's spiritual activity when they contact the eternal.
Interestingly, the Bible, in Ecclesiastes 3:11 states that God has "set eternity in the hearts of men" and it seems these authors have identified the area where people make contact with the eternal.
kenblogton
kenblogton

1. What does the Bible verse have to do with this?
The heart is not in your head.

2. Either way, the study seems to suggest that they found the part of the brain that is active when the subject believes he is transcending.

This shows that said transcendence is happening in the brain. This is what we should expect unless you can show emotions generate from anywhere else besides the brain. How are you making the leap to say that the subject actually transcended and detected a god concept from an observation that shows the transcendent state is happening in the persons mind?

Reply to 1. The term "heart" is used as a metaphor, it does not refer to the literal heart.

How could you possibly know this? We are talking about ancient men here who penned this verse. Perhaps you assume too much?

Reply to 2. The authors make the point that when subjects experience the physical, it is also in the brain; all human experience is in the brain, we do not directly experience the physical or anything else. Experiencing transcendence is no different than experiencing the physical. Therefore, just as we accept that the experience of the physical is real, we can also have confidence that the experience of transcendence is real.
kenblogton

Got it. According to this, it seems we can also have confidence that hallucinations are real too then. Wait....

Either way, where is the logic between "this part of the brain is active when he believes he is transcending" to "he is transcending"?

Reply to 1. The term heart has been used metaphorically for millennia. I cited an Old Testament verse. In the New Testament (Matthew 6:21), about a thousand years later Jesus says "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Today, we speak of "heart" as in "the heart of the matter" and "He has a big heart" or "he is heartless"

Reply to 2. As I've previously cited, the authors distinguish between hallucinations and meditations “Science…has not been able to empirically prove that mysticism is a product of distraught or dysfunctional minds. Significant research, in fact, seems to show that people who experience genuine mystical states enjoy much higher levels of psychological health than the public at large…. Finally, mystics and psychotics tend to have very different interpretation of the meaning of their experiences. Psychotics in delusional states often have feelings of religious grandiosity and inflated egotistical importance…. Mystical states, on the other hand, usually involve a loss of pride and ego, a quieting of the mind, and an emptying of the self – all of which is required before the mystic can become a suitable vessel for God…. Mystical experiences are also set apart, from all hallucinatory states, by the high degree of sensory complexity they usually involve. First, hallucinations usually involve only a single sensory system – [visual, auditory, emotive]. Mystical experiences, on the other hand, tend to be rich, coherent, and deeply dimensioned sensory experiences. They are perceived with the same… [or with an] increased…degree of sensory complexity with which we experience ‘ordinary’ states of mind. [And] the mind remembers mystical experience with the same degree of clarity and sense of reality that it bestows upon memories of ‘real’ past events…. We believe this sense of realness strongly suggests that the accounts of mystics are not indications of minds in disarray, but are the proper, predictable neurological result of a stable, coherent mind willing itself toward a higher spiritual plane…."
kenblogton

[kenblogton]

[Replying to post 1236 by kenblogton]

Do we also have confidence that all illusions are real, and that other spiritual experiences that are mutually exclusive of a specific branch of Christian ones are also real?

As I've previously cited, the authors state “Science…has not been able to empirically prove that mysticism is a product of distraught or dysfunctional minds. Significant research, in fact, seems to show that people who experience genuine mystical states enjoy much higher levels of psychological health than the public at large…. Finally, mystics and psychotics tend to have very different interpretation of the meaning of their experiences. Psychotics in delusional states often have feelings of religious grandiosity and inflated egotistical importance…. Mystical states, on the other hand, usually involve a loss of pride and ego, a quieting of the mind, and an emptying of the self – all of which is required before the mystic can become a suitable vessel for God…. Mystical experiences are also set apart, from all hallucinatory states, by the high degree of sensory complexity they usually involve. First, hallucinations usually involve only a single sensory system – [visual, auditory, emotive]. Mystical experiences, on the other hand, tend to be rich, coherent, and deeply dimensioned sensory experiences. They are perceived with the same… [or with an] increased…degree of sensory complexity with which we experience ‘ordinary’ states of mind. [And] the mind remembers mystical experience with the same degree of clarity and sense of reality that it bestows upon memories of ‘real’ past events…. We believe this sense of realness strongly suggests that the accounts of mystics are not indications of minds in disarray, but are the proper, predictable neurological result of a stable, coherent mind willing itself toward a higher spiritual plane…."
Also, I would note many of the subjects employed were NOT Christian.
kenblogton

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 1240 by kenblogton]

Mystical experiences aren't exactly Christian exclusive.

"can't empirically prove it's a product of dysfunctional minds" is just another way for saying "hasn't prove it isn't true"

"Psychotics in delusional states often have feelings of religious grandiosity and inflated egotistical importance ... [unlike mystical experiences]"

"They're different, one's less ego centric" isn't evidence for the truth of one.

Hallucinations are not only single sensory systems. Even ignoring the obvious drug related example, often hallucinations will lead to illusions in all sorts of senses. People in dark places who are hearing things will also see things.

And once again, whether or not they live longer doesn't make it more true.

"Many of the subjects employed were not Christian"
And were all of the mystical experiences Christian experiences?
Were any of the Christian experiences psychotic experiences?

Even if there was conclusive evidence that Christian experiences specifically caused significantly different brain patterns and feelings to every other religion, that would still not be even the slightest point of evidence in favour of its truth.

[kenblogton]

[Replying to post 1240 by kenblogton]

1. Mystical experiences aren't exactly Christian exclusive.

2. "can't empirically prove it's a product of dysfunctional minds" is just another way for saying "hasn't prove it isn't true"

"Psychotics in delusional states often have feelings of religious grandiosity and inflated egotistical importance ... [unlike mystical experiences]"

"They're different, one's less ego centric" isn't evidence for the truth of one.

Hallucinations are not only single sensory systems. Even ignoring the obvious drug related example, often hallucinations will lead to illusions in all sorts of senses. People in dark places who are hearing things will also see things.

And once again, whether or not they live longer doesn't make it more true.

3. "Many of the subjects employed were not Christian"
And were all of the mystical experiences Christian experiences?
Were any of the Christian experiences psychotic experiences?

Even if there was conclusive evidence that Christian experiences specifically caused significantly different brain patterns and feelings to every other religion, that would still not be even the slightest point of evidence in favour of its truth.

Reply to 1. I stated this in my previous posting: the transcendences were experienced by those of many faiths.

Reply to 2. Based on their results, researchers have shown that transcendent experiences of meditators are qualitatively different than those of psychotics and that meditators have qualitative characteristics different than non-meditators.
The truth of the experience is suggested by the authors' conclusions a. that both transcendence and perception of the physical are products of the mind/brain, b. that the capacity for transcendence evolved in the brain, and c. their statement “A neurological approach… suggests that God is not the product of a cognitive, deductive process, but was instead ‘discovered’ in a mystical or spiritual encounter made known to human consciousness through the transcendent machinery of the mind. In other words, humans do not cognitively invent a powerful God and then depend upon this invention to gain a feeling of control; instead, God, in the broadest and most fundamental definition of the term, is experienced in mystical spirituality"

Reply to 3. The experiences of the meditators were non-psychotic and non-religious: they transcended the material and believed they achieved contact with eternity.
kenblogton

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 1242 by kenblogton]

Once again, none of this relates to the truth of the transcendent, let alone of Christianity. Were it a valid point it'd be a moot one.

Does the fact that it isn't Christian exclusive indicate that the transcendent isn't Christian? Did the majority of Christian transcendences have Christian or Christian-consistent experiences? Did non-Christians have a higher rate of non-Christian and Christian inconsistent experiences? Were all experiences too vague to be inconsistent with Christianity or not directly in support of it?