The trilemma all gods face

[Wootah]

Hi all,

It just seemed like a lot of people on the site were not familiar with the trilemma all gods worth following face. This is the trilemma of is the God good, is it just and is it loving.

So what's the issue.

If the God is good then it is just. If it is not just then it is not good.
If the God is just then it cannot be merciful. if the god wants to show mercy on someone then it is not being just. If it wants to be just then it is not being merciful.
If a Good is merciful then it is not being just and nor is it being good.

No god outside of God resolves this trilemma. For instance Allah is claimed to be just and merciful but never explains how it is being just or merciful when it shows mercy on someone. Worse since we know Allah is claimed to be merciful then we know Allah is not just or good. If a God is not good then there is nothing to trust and so why does anyone follow Allah? What proof is there that Allah actually is merciful.

So in Christianity the trilemma is resolved.

Mankind's sins require justice.
God justly sentences us to hell.
God also loves us and so pays for our sins.
Those that wish to accept that payment for their sins are able to justly go to heaven.
In this way God shows that he is good, just and loving.

Obviously the floor is open to disagreement or refinement of the above.

[Divine Insight]

IMHO, this ideal is actually quite absurd. We would not exist in heaven with the knowledge of Jesus' grace. Instead we would exist in heaven under the very negative and shameful knowledge that we don't deserve to be there and we have only been given entrance through grace.

In other words, for all of eternity we would forever be viewed by God as ultimately unworthy beings who do not deserve his grace but were granted it anyway.

We would exist in heaven because God loves us and has forgiven us all our sins.

Why would we live there in shame if God loves us and wants communion with us?

But in this Christian religion no one is truly forgiven at all. On the contrary you are constantly reminded that you are indeed a "sinner" who was merely granted entrace into haven by the grace of Jesus. That is hardly forgiveness for anything.

This whole idea that God is so hard-up to have a communion with such unworthy lowly and disgusting creatures as humans is an insane idea in any case. Why would such a profoundly omnipotent and perfect being be so hard-up to need to have communion with such disgusting creatures?

By your very own proclamation in a previous post, humans themselves are incapable of love or anything good without God. Therefore humans apparently have absolutely nothing to offer God and are completely dependent upon God for everything good.

How is this God supposed to benefit by taking in such lowly despicable creatures as undeserving freeloads who can only suck on his good nature like a bunch of maggots.

I don't see where this picture is even remotely inviting much less sane. Especially for the God himself. It might seem to be inviting for someone who actually believes that they are incapable of love and compassion without this God. But IMHO, that would be a truly pathetic human to begin with.

It also doesn't say much for this creator's capabilities. The totally worthless humans that you describe are the best this creator could create? That doesn't reflect back on the creator very well in any case.

The scenario that you are describing is far from attractive. I still hold that pure secular materialism is actually far more inviting to me as a basis for reality.

The scenario you propose is quite disgusting. You are demanding that humans are absolute garbage and totally incapable of love on their own.

I don't buy into that for one second.

[Bede]

[Replying to post 43 by Wootah]

Will people be tortured in hell?
If so, why?
This isn't merely *not God*, this is *not God* PLUS torture.

If hell is merely the absence of God, there would be no brimstone, fire, suffering, etc.
It would just be Earth, without the specific group of religious that are correct.

The absence of God is not merely life as is now, but without God looking down on us going tut! tut!

Hell is not merely the absence of God but of all that God is and brings to us.

There will be no love, only hate.

There will be no friends, only enemies.

There will be no beauty, only ugliness.

There will be no peace, only war.

There will be no pleasure, only suffering.

There will be no ecstasy, only agony.

And so on.

This is actually a statement that proclaims that humans are incapable of love. Period.

And there is a huge problem with this to begin with. If humans are incapable of love, then how in the world are they supposed to love God with all their heart, mind and soul.

This proclamation of yours makes absolutely no sense at all.

You totally strip from humanity any potential for anything. This is an extremely negative and demeaning view of your very own essence since you too are human.

It is in our nature to love because we are made in the image and likeness of God.

If we are completely seperated from God then we cannot love.

[Divine Insight]

However, it does make sense if you operate under the assumption that justice is an attribute of God's nature to which He is bound to comply.

You're getting into a whole different topic of debate here.

The argument that God is "bound to comply" to some yet higher absolute morality (i.e. higher than God himself since he is bound to comply to it), is the beginning of an infinite regression the leads to the question of where this absolute morality of God's nature comes from.

This is why many theologians demand that God creates morality by his own free will choice. So in this sense God's morality needs to be the subjective free will choice of God.

Also, if God was "bound" by some higher morality and could not do anything that conflicts with this, then God itself would not even be a moral entity. It would simply be a robot that has no choice but to do what's right according to this imagined higher morality. And there is still the open question of where that higher morality comes from and why is God "bound" by it?

[Bede]

IMHO, this ideal is actually quite absurd. We would not exist in heaven with the knowledge of Jesus' grace. Instead we would exist in heaven under the very negative and shameful knowledge that we don't deserve to be there and we have only been given entrance through grace.

In other words, for all of eternity we would forever be viewed by God as ultimately unworthy beings who do not deserve his grace but were granted it anyway.

We would exist in heaven because God loves us and has forgiven us all our sins.

Why would we live there in shame if God loves us and wants communion with us?

But in this Christian religion no one is truly forgiven at all. On the contrary you are constantly reminded that you are indeed a "sinner" who was merely granted entrace into haven by the grace of Jesus. That is hardly forgiveness for anything.

This whole idea that God is so hard-up to have a communion with such unworthy lowly and disgusting creatures as humans is an insane idea in any case. Why would such a profoundly omnipotent and perfect being be so hard-up to need to have communion with such disgusting creatures?

By your very own proclamation in a previous post, humans themselves are incapable of love or anything good without God. Therefore humans apparently have absolutely nothing to offer God and are completely dependent upon God for everything good.

How is this God supposed to benefit by taking in such lowly despicable creatures as undeserving freeloads who can only suck on his good nature like a bunch of maggots.

I don't see where this picture is even remotely inviting much less sane. Especially for the God himself. It might seem to be inviting for someone who actually believes that they are incapable of love and compassion without this God. But IMHO, that would be a truly pathetic human to begin with.

It also doesn't say much for this creator's capabilities. The totally worthless humans that you describe are the best this creator could create? That doesn't reflect back on the creator very well in any case.

The scenario that you are describing is far from attractive. I still hold that pure secular materialism is actually far more inviting to me as a basis for reality.

The scenario you propose is quite disgusting. You are demanding that humans are absolute garbage and totally incapable of love on their own.

I don't buy into that for one second.

I haven't said that humans are absolute garbage. You made that up.


We are made in the image and likeness of God. We may not understand why God loves us but he does.

As to the idea that God does not really forgive our sins, where do you get that from?

[Bust Nak]

God is loving us all now. But there is a time when God has to accept that some people don't want a relationship with Him.

And you are suggesting that is when God would stop loving us all?

My analogy shows that love is present.

Love for a tiny subset of creation?

Hell is so awful because God is good and hell is not good, not God. It's just logic.

Well, since heaven is not God then heaven is not good. Simple logic, right?

But we could have a god that is not good and so all that means is that there would be hell and no heaven.

Lets call that god, X:
Since hell is not X, and X is not good, then hell is good. Along with the premise there would be hell and no heaven, everything would be peachy with a not good god.

Come on, you can do better than word games.

It is in our nature to love because we are made in the image and likeness of God.

If we are completely seperated from God then we cannot love.

What made you think that seperation from God would change our nature? I've drawn a picture in the likeness of a car. A car that have since been sent to the scrap heap, and eternal seperation didn't affect the picture one bit.

And if what you claim is indeed true, what made you think that we would be still be capable of suffering after completely seperated from God? Wouldn't that disappear too?

I haven't said that humans are absolute garbage. [Divine Insight] made that up.

Well, you seem to be under the impression that every worthwhile feature humanity has, are not intrinsic of humanity but are actively being sustained by God's proximity, capable only of hate and ugliness when left on our own. You may not have use the phrase absolute garbage but that is the idea you were conveying.

[Divine Insight]

I haven't said that humans are absolute garbage. You made that up.

No, I didn't make that up at all. That is exactly what you said, you said:

The absence of God is not merely life as is now, but without God looking down on us going tut! tut!

Hell is not merely the absence of God but of all that God is and brings to us.

There will be no love, only hate.

There will be no friends, only enemies.

There will be no beauty, only ugliness.

There will be no peace, only war.

There will be no pleasure, only suffering.

There will be no ecstasy, only agony.

And so on.

You have just claimed that humans are nothing but pure hate without God along with all the other quite negative traits that you have listed above.

In short you are claiming that humans are pure garbage without God.

And then you claim that this God is in love with these garbage humans and is also apparently in dire need of having a relationship with them where he (and solely he) provides them with love, and all these other positive traits which, by your proclamation above, humans are totally devoid of on their own.

I don't see how this amounts to anything but a claim that humans are nothing but garbage.

It also tells me that you personally believe that you are incapable of love of your own and that any love you might feel actually comes from God, because by your proclamation above you are incapable of love.

That's mandatory by what you have just claimed. You are necessarily incapable of love. Only God can instill you with love.

In order for me to believe and accept your religious philosophy I would need to believe that I'm precisely as disgusting as you have claimed above.

Sorry, but I don't buy into that for one second.

[Divine Insight]

Bede

Also, if humans are incapable of love on their own and all love is instilled upon them via this God, then why couldn't the same thing be true of righteousness?

Why can't this God then simply instill righteousness onto all humans. Then there would be no need for anyone to go to hell?

Your apologetic arguments for this religion are totally empty and devoid of any compelling reasons to believe in this religion. On the contrary, your claims actually raise far more questions and problems that you seem to think that the supposedly resolve.

In fact, I don't see how they resolve anything actually. If all humans are incapable of the things you claim then why should any humans qualify for grace at all. What would be the criteria for them to have "Earned" Grace?

And yes they most certainly would have needed to "earn" it, because the mere fact that not all humans are automatically given this grace demands that it is indeed something that specific humans have done that have "earned" them this grace.

The whole scenario is oxymoronic.

The humans who have obtained grace in this religion must have done something to "earn" it. But what exactly could they do to earn this grace?

Simply believe in Christianity as a matter of pure blind faith?

That's absurd. Why would that be sufficient for earning grace?

[Strider324]

Divine Insight scribed:

If we are completely seperated from God then we cannot love.

I am completely seperated from biblegod, and yet, I still manage to love. Your premise is false.

[Divine Insight]

We are made in the image and likeness of God. We may not understand why God loves us but he does.

How can you claim that we are made in the likeness of God when you claim that God is capable of love, and simultaneously claim that we are not?

As to the idea that God does not really forgive our sins, where do you get that from?

Because according to you there never is any actual forgiveness. Instead we are just given "grace" which is not forgiveness at all. On the contrary the very concept of grace is the idea that it will not be forgotten that you are a sinner but instead you will just be accepted into God's presence anyway in spite of the fact that you are a sinner. That's not forgiveness.

And besides, according to you humans don't even have the ability on their own to do good. Why should they need to be forgiven for something they were never even responsible for in the first place.

This whole religion is a unethical scam that holds people responsible for things it claims that humans don't even have any control over to begin with.

It's a highly unethical and immoral religion created to brainwash people into thinking that they could be held accountable for things that this very religion won't even allow them to be accountable for.

[Divine Insight]

Divine Insight scribed:

If we are completely seperated from God then we cannot love.

I am completely seperated from biblegod, and yet, I still manage to love. Your premise is false.

Even if it was claimed by the Christians that your ability to love comes from their God this still doesn't help their dogma. If humans are incapable of love in their own right then why would this God even be interested in having a relationship with such obvious mindless and heartless robots as humans?

Humans could never "love" God if this were true because supposedly all love comes from God in the first place. And according to Bede, even if humans are programmed by God to think they love God it would still just be this God loving himself through empty robotic humans who have no ability to love anything on their own anyway.

These kinds of apologies are truly scraping at the very bottom of the apologetic barrel in obvious desperation for nothing better to offer.