Evolution

[keithprosser3]

Given the nature of reproduction and of natural selection isn't evolution inescapable?
How can evolution not happen?

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 1263 by kenblogton]

I don't know how many times I'll have to repeat this, but here it goes again:

1) There was nothing prior to the beginning of time by definition.
Not just physical, nothing. You evade this.

2) By eternal; I mean two things.
One - the Universe in a 4 dimensional sense doesn't "come into existence" - there is no "time in which it doesn't" and "time in which it does" exist. There isn't time before the beginning of time.

Two - the second context of eternal; "for all time". Obviously time and the Universe which includes time (just time would be sufficient for the term universe) exist for all time.

"Nature is not eternal; it is somewhere between 8-15 billion years old."
Nature IS eternal, nature IS between 8-15 billion years old.
Finite does not mean it isn't eternal. There isn't such a thing as time before nature, as time begins with the big bang.
(not to mention time&nature might extend into the infinite future)

An analogy: If I have a ruler, and I put it on a table which is longer than the ruler, I can say "this table's length covers the entire ruler" / "this table exists across the entire length of the ruler", while still saying it is finite.
The ruler has a beginning, just like time.

[kenblogton]

A.

[Replying to post 1263 by kenblogton]

I don't know how many times I'll have to repeat this, but here it goes again:

1) There was nothing prior to the beginning of time by definition.
Not just physical, nothing. You evade this.

2) By eternal; I mean two things.
One - the Universe in a 4 dimensional sense doesn't "come into existence" - there is no "time in which it doesn't" and "time in which it does" exist. There isn't time before the beginning of time.

B. Two - the second context of eternal; "for all time". Obviously time and the Universe which includes time (just time would be sufficient for the term universe) exist for all time.

"Nature is not eternal; it is somewhere between 8-15 billion years old."
Nature IS eternal, nature IS between 8-15 billion years old.
Finite does not mean it isn't eternal. There isn't such a thing as time before nature, as time begins with the big bang.
(not to mention time&nature might extend into the infinite future)

An analogy: If I have a ruler, and I put it on a table which is longer than the ruler, I can say "this table's length covers the entire ruler" / "this table exists across the entire length of the ruler", while still saying it is finite.
The ruler has a beginning, just like time.

Reply to A. It is known there was nothing physical prior to the big bang, since that's when the physical begins. Science can only tell us about the physical.
You cannot say with a shred of proof that there was nothing non-physical prior to the big bang, whereas I can tell you with certainty that, as I already have, since something always comes from something, God, its creator, is prior to the big bang.

Reply to B. The definition of eternal is "lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning." Since the universe had a beginning, and, as the law of entropy tells us, will have an end, it is, by definition, NOT eternal.

Please accept reality, not your fabricated conceptions of reality.
kenblogton

[Jashwell]

A.

[Replying to post 1263 by kenblogton]

I don't know how many times I'll have to repeat this, but here it goes again:

1) There was nothing prior to the beginning of time by definition.
Not just physical, nothing. You evade this.

2) By eternal; I mean two things.
One - the Universe in a 4 dimensional sense doesn't "come into existence" - there is no "time in which it doesn't" and "time in which it does" exist. There isn't time before the beginning of time.

B. Two - the second context of eternal; "for all time". Obviously time and the Universe which includes time (just time would be sufficient for the term universe) exist for all time.

"Nature is not eternal; it is somewhere between 8-15 billion years old."
Nature IS eternal, nature IS between 8-15 billion years old.
Finite does not mean it isn't eternal. There isn't such a thing as time before nature, as time begins with the big bang.
(not to mention time&nature might extend into the infinite future)

An analogy: If I have a ruler, and I put it on a table which is longer than the ruler, I can say "this table's length covers the entire ruler" / "this table exists across the entire length of the ruler", while still saying it is finite.
The ruler has a beginning, just like time.

Reply to A. It is known there was nothing physical prior to the big bang, since that's when the physical begins. Science can only tell us about the physical.
You cannot say with a shred of proof that there was nothing non-physical prior to the big bang, whereas I can tell you with certainty that, as I already have, since something always comes from something, God, its creator, is prior to the big bang.

Yes I can, and have. Prior is temporal notation.
The beginning of time is the time at which nothing exists prior by definition.
If something exists BEFORE OR PRIOR TO the beginning of time, then the very fact that there is temporal difference means you are wrong and that's not the beginning of time.
E.g.
Time begins at T=1 (w/ big bang & "physical universe")
By definition of begin - T=1 is FIRST.
"God is prior to the beginning of time"
Means God is present at T < 1. (Eg T=0)
But then T=1 isn't the first, is it?


What you are doing is pointing to the 10cm measurement on a ruler, and saying "[the length of the ruler] does not exist [below] this" (the length of the ruler is time, below is temporal precedence) and you're also saying "the 10cm measurement must be above the 0cm measurement. therefore something non physical must be below the 10cm measurement".
It's logically absurd. It's like saying you're ahead of someone in a race when no race has begun - if you were ahead of him, then a race would have begun by definition.

Reply to B. The definition of eternal is "lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning." Since the universe had a beginning, and, as the law of entropy tells us, will have an end, it is, by definition, NOT eternal.

Please accept reality, not your fabricated conceptions of reality.
kenblogton

Forever means FOR ALL TIME. There isn't time before or after the beginning/end (respectively) of time to compare to.
Ever is the length of time in entirety. If time isn't infinite, then forever isn't either.

Entropy does not tell us the Universe will in any meaningful sense have an end. Unless you've changed meaning of Universe. Are you saying that relatively ordered structures of matter and energy began and will end? That much is obvious and in no way correlatory to the big bang or the big rip.

Once again, you have not replied to my main point.
Do you believe that it is logically consistent - in no way contradictory - for a flipbook to exist forever or eternally in the same sense you think God does?

[arian]

Arian, one of us is not visiting the other's home. There's a lot of polar bears and transgender communists where I live anyway, so you wouldn't like it here.

I would love to see the polar bears, but I wouldn't be coming up to see the Polar bears or the transgender communists, but to see an old debating friend.

I also doubt you have anything important to demonstrate, but if you do, write a paper and submit it to a science journal. You could be famous for being the first person to demonstrate that nothing exists and win a Nobel Prize. Good luck!

My friend, do you actually believe that the very nation that worked so hard to reduce human perception of themselves to a sub-human state (evolving apes) would give me their personally created prize for a scientific proof that destroys 300 some years and billions of dollars worth of deception? Think my friend, .. that would be like you (and some others here) saying; "Yes arian, I would love to come and see you and see for myself this amazing thing you claim!"

.. like that's ever going to happen??

I don't really care for the Nobel Prize, heck even Arafat got one of those, but it sure would be nice to have ASU give my twins a four year scholarship, they are educated (unlike me), and smart. But I don't know if I will be able to put them through college on my social security, .. I will be happy if I can afford to get them through high school!?

Take care my friend.

[arian]

A.

[Replying to post 1263 by kenblogton]

I don't know how many times I'll have to repeat this, but here it goes again:

1) There was nothing prior to the beginning of time by definition.
Not just physical, nothing. You evade this.

2) By eternal; I mean two things.
One - the Universe in a 4 dimensional sense doesn't "come into existence" - there is no "time in which it doesn't" and "time in which it does" exist. There isn't time before the beginning of time.

B. Two - the second context of eternal; "for all time". Obviously time and the Universe which includes time (just time would be sufficient for the term universe) exist for all time.

"Nature is not eternal; it is somewhere between 8-15 billion years old."
Nature IS eternal, nature IS between 8-15 billion years old.
Finite does not mean it isn't eternal. There isn't such a thing as time before nature, as time begins with the big bang.
(not to mention time&nature might extend into the infinite future)

An analogy: If I have a ruler, and I put it on a table which is longer than the ruler, I can say "this table's length covers the entire ruler" / "this table exists across the entire length of the ruler", while still saying it is finite.
The ruler has a beginning, just like time.

Reply to A. It is known there was nothing physical prior to the big bang, since that's when the physical begins. Science can only tell us about the physical.
You cannot say with a shred of proof that there was nothing non-physical prior to the big bang, whereas I can tell you with certainty that, as I already have, since something always comes from something, God, its creator, is prior to the big bang.

Yes I can, and have. Prior is temporal notation.
The beginning of time is the time at which nothing exists prior by definition.

I know and can show you the existence of 'nothing', and I can tell you that nothing, that is absolutely nothing which includes 'time' can pop out of 'nothing'.

Explain to me please, how at one moment there is this 'nothing' we are not to talk about, or even mention because it is silly to mention (in Your opinion), and the next moment we have time and space? Please use science, philosophy, sci-fi stories, mythology, or fairytale, whatever you choose, as long as you describe this miraculous moment where you have 'nothing', and the next moment there is time and space?
If you say there was always 'something', .. then how come it didn't take up any space, or have space within itself so it can expand (Big Bang) within itself?

If something exists BEFORE OR PRIOR TO the beginning of time, then the very fact that there is temporal difference means you are wrong and that's not the beginning of time.
E.g.
Time begins at T=1 (w/ big bang & "physical universe")
By definition of begin - T=1 is FIRST.
"God is prior to the beginning of time"
Means God is present at T < 1. (Eg T=0)
But then T=1 isn't the first, is it?

There IS no 'time' as if it was some part or makeup of the universe, it's something imaginary we created to measure a day with. If you have a very fast clock, a day could be a thousand years. Another clock could be slow, and a day could be as short as 5 minutes in the same day. And this wouldn't matter how fast we were traveling, nor would it mean 'time dilation', just a slow and a fast clock.

If I create a hundred mile ruler and say "this is 12 inches" (1 foot long), this doesn't mean length contraction either.

Let me ask you this Jashwell, what would happen if we got rid of all time keeping mechanisms, every one of them including all sun-dials (or trying to tell time with our shadow) and the counting of days??

People would be born, and then die, .. period. Morning then evening, day after day. When you got tired, you rested, once rested you got up and did what you had to do. What would 'time' mean then?

What would "Time dilation" mean then? lol.

Reply to B. The definition of eternal is "lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning." Since the universe had a beginning, and, as the law of entropy tells us, will have an end, it is, by definition, NOT eternal.

Please accept reality, not your fabricated conceptions of reality.
kenblogton

Forever means FOR ALL TIME. There isn't time before or after the beginning/end (respectively) of time to compare to.
Ever is the length of time in entirety. If time isn't infinite, then forever isn't either.

LOL, .. kenblogton just ask you to 'stop fabricating your own reality', and there you go again, .. it's quite funny really! .. "ever is the length of time"??, .. please tell us how long is ever, or when did it start? When will it end, or can it end, .. ever?

Entropy does not tell us the Universe will in any meaningful sense have an end. Unless you've changed meaning of Universe. Are you saying that relatively ordered structures of matter and energy began and will end? That much is obvious and in no way correlatory to the big bang or the big rip.

Nothing is 'correllatory' to the Big-bang and the Big rip fairytale. Kenblogton said it at least 10 times already that you BB which created the universe and time had a beginning 13.75 billion years ago, .. now you are trying to say it always existed?? Make up your mind already, is the universe eternal going between creating time and space throughout eternity?

If it always existed, why is it expanding? Why, so it can create time and space for itself, within itself after it created itself? Don't you see how silly this sounds?

Once again, you have not replied to my main point.
Do you believe that it is logically consistent - in no way contradictory - for a flipbook to exist forever or eternally in the same sense you think God does?

God is not a flipbook, the flipbook was created by, and exists in God. God is not 'nothing' either, He created nothing just as He created everything else and I can prove this. According to the BB story, the universe is expanding, and by all logic, something expanding has to expand, .. into, .. something, and because I know what 'nothing' is, it cannot expand into nothing. Use your mind and you will understand this. Also, someone has to flip the flip book.

[kenblogton]

[Replying to post 1266 by Jashwell]
I have nothing to add regarding A.
Regarding B:
Quote:

Reply to B. The definition of eternal is "lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning." Since the universe had a beginning, and, as the law of entropy tells us, will have an end, it is, by definition, NOT eternal.

Please accept reality, not your fabricated conceptions of reality.
kenblogton

Forever means FOR ALL TIME. There isn't time before or after the beginning/end (respectively) of time to compare to.
Ever is the length of time in entirety. If time isn't infinite, then forever isn't either.

Entropy does not tell us the Universe will in any meaningful sense have an end. Unless you've changed meaning of Universe. Are you saying that relatively ordered structures of matter and energy began and will end? That much is obvious and in no way correlatory to the big bang or the big rip.

Once again, you have not replied to my main point.
Do you believe that it is logically consistent - in no way contradictory - for a flipbook to exist forever or eternally in the same sense you think God does?

In your original post, you used the term 'eternal,' which is without end or beginning. Now you've switched to the term 'forever,' meaning all time. God is eternal, not forever.

Regarding entropy, at the Science website http://www.universetoday.com/51887/define-entropy/, as I've shared with you previously, it says "Entropy is also seen as “times arrow” you can use it to see if a certain substance or system has undergone a change that releases energy. An important example of this concept is the universe itself. While matter can be neither created or destroyed due to the law of conservation, we know that the amount of usable energy released in a reaction will steadily decrease. This means that one day the universe will run out of usable energy and its entropy will increase to the point that means the “death” of the universe." Apparently, you refuse to accept this.
kenblogton

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 1266 by Jashwell]
I have nothing to add regarding A.
Regarding B:
Quote:

Reply to B. The definition of eternal is "lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning." Since the universe had a beginning, and, as the law of entropy tells us, will have an end, it is, by definition, NOT eternal.

Please accept reality, not your fabricated conceptions of reality.
kenblogton

Forever means FOR ALL TIME. There isn't time before or after the beginning/end (respectively) of time to compare to.
Ever is the length of time in entirety. If time isn't infinite, then forever isn't either.

Entropy does not tell us the Universe will in any meaningful sense have an end. Unless you've changed meaning of Universe. Are you saying that relatively ordered structures of matter and energy began and will end? That much is obvious and in no way correlatory to the big bang or the big rip.

Once again, you have not replied to my main point.
Do you believe that it is logically consistent - in no way contradictory - for a flipbook to exist forever or eternally in the same sense you think God does?

In your original post, you used the term 'eternal,' which is without end or beginning. Now you've switched to the term 'forever,' meaning all time. God is eternal, not forever.

The definition of eternal is "lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning."

I also said that the only thing up for discussion was if you meant in particular the second context, then depending on your definition of beginning it might be reasonable to say the Universe isn't eternal.

But of course, as addressed in A and many many times in the thread, yet never addressed by you, if God is prior to the beginning of time then it's not the beginning of time, is it?
beginning:
-the point in time or space at which something begins
-the first part or earliest stage of something

if God exists at a time prior to the big bang, then God is at an earlier stage / prior point of time; and the big bang is no longer the beginning of time.

Regarding entropy, at the Science website http://www.universetoday.com/51887/define-entropy/, as I've shared with you previously, it says "Entropy is also seen as �times arrow� you can use it to see if a certain substance or system has undergone a change that releases energy. An important example of this concept is the universe itself. While matter can be neither created or destroyed due to the law of conservation, we know that the amount of usable energy released in a reaction will steadily decrease. This means that one day the universe will run out of usable energy and its entropy will increase to the point that means the �death� of the universe." Apparently, you refuse to accept this.
kenblogton

You don't seem to understand what they mean by death.
Time won't stop existing because of entropy.
Space won't stop existing because of entropy.

As I said, unless by Universe you mean relatively highly ordered aspects of the Universe, then the Universe isn't going anywhere to our knowledge.

This is similar to someone having a glass of water with ice in it, the ice melting and them saying that the glass of water has ceased to exist.

Yes, all the stars will burn out and many of them will collapse into black holes. Yes, eventually even the black holes will dissipate. Yes, eventually there will be no galaxies and no possibility of life in the Universe.
Yes, it's entirely plausible that the expansion rate of the metric of spacetime will have increased to such an extent that even atoms won't be able to be held together (Though this bit isn't entropy)
No, this does not mean space and time will cease to exist. Unless you're switching uses of the word Universe, then the Universe does not have a beginning and end. It has a beginning, though the choice of word is dubious (it has one boundary), it does not observably have an end. It is, to our knowledge, infinite.

Do space and time begin at a fixed point?
If so, in what meaningful sense can God be said to be prior to this?

[kenblogton]

[Replying to Jashwell]

1. Jashwell said: But of course, as addressed in A and many many times in the thread, yet never addressed by you, if God is prior to the beginning of time then it's not the beginning of time, is it?
beginning:
-the point in time or space at which something begins
-the first part or earliest stage of something

if God exists at a time prior to the big bang, then God is at an earlier stage / prior point of time; and the big bang is no longer the beginning of time.

kenblogton replied: What you seem not to understand is that God is not physical and is eternal, outside of time, not in space, and consisting neither of matter nor energy. You want a god with physical attributes; that is not God.


Quote:

Regarding entropy, at the Science website http://www.universetoday.com/51887/define-entropy/, as I've shared with you previously, it says "Entropy is also seen as �times arrow� you can use it to see if a certain substance or system has undergone a change that releases energy. An important example of this concept is the universe itself. While matter can be neither created or destroyed due to the law of conservation, we know that the amount of usable energy released in a reaction will steadily decrease. This means that one day the universe will run out of usable energy and its entropy will increase to the point that means the �death� of the universe." Apparently, you refuse to accept this.
kenblogton

Jashwell replied: You don't seem to understand what they mean by death.
Time won't stop existing because of entropy.
Space won't stop existing because of entropy.

As I said, unless by Universe you mean relatively highly ordered aspects of the Universe, then the Universe isn't going anywhere to our knowledge.

This is similar to someone having a glass of water with ice in it, the ice melting and them saying that the glass of water has ceased to exist.

Yes, all the stars will burn out and many of them will collapse into black holes. Yes, eventually even the black holes will dissipate. Yes, eventually there will be no galaxies and no possibility of life in the Universe.
Yes, it's entirely plausible that the expansion rate of the metric of spacetime will have increased to such an extent that even atoms won't be able to be held together (Though this bit isn't entropy)
No, this does not mean space and time will cease to exist. Unless you're switching uses of the word Universe, then the Universe does not have a beginning and end. It has a beginning, though the choice of word is dubious (it has one boundary), it does not observably have an end. It is, to our knowledge, infinite.

kenblogton replied: I agree. Space, time & matter will continue to exist, but energy will no longer be transformable.

Jashwell said: Do space and time begin at a fixed point?
If so, in what meaningful sense can God be said to be prior to this?

kenblogton replied: Space, time, matter & energy all originate with the dense singularity/big bang, as you well know. And prior is a time-context term, as you have previously pointed out. As noted above, since God is outside of the physical, including time, prior is not a term that applies to God. Other term which don't apply to God are space terms, like where is God; God is Spirit, consisting neither of matter nor energy.


kenblogton

[Jashwell]

I've been slacking a bit, but when I say "Is God Prior?" I mean is the supposed causation of the big bang by God prior to the big bang?
And is there a real transition/change between no Universe and Universe?

[Star]

We have veered off-topic with your discussion of nothing. It's an interesting subject worthy of its own thread, so I have started one. I invite you to join me here and hope that you do. Cheers.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 116#669116