Proof And Faith

[connermt]

Would proof of the existence of the christian god cheapen christianity? Christianity is nothing if it's not hope (or faith). But with proof, there's no need for faith:
If one can prove god is real, faith of it ceases to exist
If god is real, surely it can do what the bible says, thus faith in it ceases to exist

We all know (not believe) that the only 'proof' that exists here is what believers accept as 'proof'. In other words, if a believer accepts 1+1=sunflower, that's proof to them.

To consider:
would proof cheapen, or eliminate altogether, christianity by the elimination of 'fiath'/hope?

[Star]

[Replying to post 3 by Star]

No, proof is evidence or argument for the truth of a statement.

"Evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement:"
"evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth"
"the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact"

My comments were in the context of science.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/sciproof.html

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 6 by dianaiad]

... 'faith' and 'trust' are synonyms.

And both pointless, even worthless, for any deity worth anything past a sniffle.
If a deity wants to play hide-n-seek, it can play with itself or someone else. Those who demand more than 'hope' and happy-wappy fairy tales in a book written by long dead (some say mentally ill and/or 'herb infused') will expect more from a deity. I suspect those with lower standards will happily accept the hope kool-aid. Looking around.....it looks like there are a LOT of those types of people.
Not that this is a bad thing - so long as they keep their kool-aid in their own fridge and don't try to pass it 'round the neighborhood.

I'm all for people passing around their 'kool-aid.' They may offer. I don't have to drink it. But how are we going to know what flavors are out there if nobody shares?

Shoot, I've even had atheist, agnostics, ignostics and self avowed anti-theists offer me a glass of their particular mix. No fizz to 'em.

However, at least now I know that those flavors are available.

I figure it should go like this?

You have the right to try to get me to listen to you.
I have the right to decide whether I want to do so.
If I do, wonderful
If I don't, I'll shut the door.

What I don't have the right to so is make you pretend that my opinion about god is more important than yours, so that whenever I am around, my flavor of koolaid is the only one allowed.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 12 by dianaiad]

You have the right to try to get me to listen to you.
I have the right to decide whether I want to do so.
If I do, wonderful
If I don't, I'll shut the door.

I wouldn't use the term 'right' but other than that, seems logical. Just don't ever come back to my house with your kool-aid NOR try to force it into my daily meal set via government regulations or fairy tale masquarading as science or fact.

What I don't have the right to so is make you pretend that my opinion about god is more important than yours, so that whenever I am around, my flavor of koolaid is the only one allowed.

. You can pretend anything you want - that's what god is after all: pretend.
I just don't have to listen to or entertain your 'pretendings'.

[1213]

[Replying to post 2 by 1213]

That's nice and all, but the bible defines faith as "...faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
I suppose we can pick-n-choose though, yes?

Maybe faith can be understood many ways. However the following scripture, I think, clearly show what it means to be faithful:

"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord has set over his household, to give them their food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his lord finds doing so when he comes. Most assuredly I tell you that he will set him over all that he has. But if that evil servant should say in his heart, 'My lord is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat his fellow-servants, and eat and drink with the drunken, the lord of that servant will come in a day when he doesn't expect it, and in an hour when he doesn't know it, and will cut him in pieces, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites; there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.
Matt. 24:45-51

[connermt]

[Replying to post 14 by 1213]

Maybe faith can be understood many ways.

One of the many problems with christianity IMO - too much can be 'understood in many different ways' which, ultimately, seems to lead to this sect and that sect, while the fundamentals are lost while everyone argues over everything else

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 12 by dianaiad]

You have the right to try to get me to listen to you.
I have the right to decide whether I want to do so.
If I do, wonderful
If I don't, I'll shut the door.

I wouldn't use the term 'right' but other than that, seems logical. Just don't ever come back to my house with your kool-aid NOR try to force it into my daily meal set via government regulations or fairy tale masquarading as science or fact.

What I don't have the right to so is make you pretend that my opinion about god is more important than yours, so that whenever I am around, my flavor of koolaid is the only one allowed.

. You can pretend anything you want - that's what god is after all: pretend.
I just don't have to listen to or entertain your 'pretendings'.

No you don't. But what that means is that you have the right to say no. You don't have the right to keep me from speaking in the first place.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 14 by 1213]

Maybe faith can be understood many ways.

One of the many problems with christianity IMO - too much can be 'understood in many different ways' which, ultimately, seems to lead to this sect and that sect, while the fundamentals are lost while everyone argues over everything else

And atheism doesn't have the same problem? That is, atheists aren't all over the map philosophically and ethically?

The search for truth can lead in all sorts of directions. Not all of them get you to 'Truth,' but not all of them fail, either. Y'don't know until you examine them.

I am interested in your idea of what the 'fundamentals' are, though, and whether the 'fundamentals' are something that all Christians agree on. After all, if they aren't, they aren't fundamental after all, are they?

[Star]

And atheism doesn't have the same problem? That is, atheists aren't all over the map philosophically and ethically?

And this is why we need "definition of atheism" threads posted every other month.

Most theists don't understand atheism, never have, and probably never will.

The only thing that unites atheists is lack of belief, for the upteenth time.

[dianaiad]

And atheism doesn't have the same problem? That is, atheists aren't all over the map philosophically and ethically?

And this is why we need "definition of atheism" threads posted every other month.

Most theists don't understand atheism, never have, and probably never will.

The only thing that unites atheists is lack of belief, for the upteenth time.

Star?

Are you criticizing me? Because...er...didn't I just say that?

Just an addendum here: the only thing that unites theists is a belief in a god or gods.

Each belief (or lack of same) comes with a great many different belief, ethical and moral systems.

[Star]

And atheism doesn't have the same problem? That is, atheists aren't all over the map philosophically and ethically?

And this is why we need "definition of atheism" threads posted every other month.

Most theists don't understand atheism, never have, and probably never will.

The only thing that unites atheists is lack of belief, for the upteenth time.

Star?

Are you criticizing me? Because...er...didn't I just say that?

Just an addendum here: the only thing that unites theists is a belief in a god or gods.

Each belief (or lack of same) comes with a great many different belief, ethical and moral systems.

Dianaiad?

Theists share many beliefs on many subjects.

Atheists only share a lack of belief on one subject. As a group, we have no unifying belief, moral, or ethical systems. There isn't an atheist handbook dictating what we must do, say, or believe. We have no unifying culture, philosophy, customs, legends, fables, or traditions. We don't pray, preach, or sing. I could go on.

I think the point 1213 made, which you responded to, is that religious teachings (including scripture) can, and are, interpreted a many ways, resulting in many beliefs. As I said, atheists only share a lack of belief on one matter. This is such a simple, and well-documented logical concept, that there's little other way of interpreting it without somehow being wrong.

So no, atheists don't have the same problem. They have the slightly different problem of some theists not being able to understand