You And Yours

[connermt]

Christainity says we have 'free will'. Christianity says each person is responsible for their own actions, in regards to one's eternal life heaven/hell.
If both of these concepts are true, why do so many people feel the need to 'butt' into another person's business?
If a person wants to smoke pot in their own home, why do some christians care?
A person wants to go to a stip club, why the need for christians take pictures of them and put on social media to 'shame them'? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /13738537/
What's the point here, christians? You don't like the club, don't go to/support it. How does taking their pictures 'save their souls'?
Don't like gay marriage? Don't 'be gay' and/or get married to a gay person. How does not allowing gay marriage to be legal 'save their souls'?
Don't believe in evolution, don't teach it in your churches. How does trying to sneak in ID as 'science' in public schools 'save the souls' of the students?
The list is almost endless.

While it's not about one's 'rights' to protest or not, it's about 'winning souls for jesus!'
How do these activities bring more lost sinners to god?
How does shaming a pot smoker, alcohol drinker, strip club patron, preventing man made rights from a gay person (etc) win these people's souls?

Surely forbidding churches from teaching their beliefs at church would be worth a fight in the US, the vast majority of these things happen independent of church and church activities. Yet, some christians seem to think it's their 'job' to 'butt into' the lives of people, who have no interest in going to, looking at or participating in, a church or church activity.

What's the 'christian logic' here? How does interferring with one's personal life benefit the cause to win souls to god?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 10 by Wootah]

What about gay marriage?

What about legalizing marijuana?

What about teaching creationism(christian dogma) to non-christian children?

[connermt]

[Replying to post 10 by Wootah]

Please show us all, in exact detail, how 2 women in Cali getting married does harm to Bob in Virgina (past the 'ew' factor).
Please show us all, in exact detail, how Bill and Ted smoking a doob in Colorado harms Mary in Queensland (past the 'ew' factor).
Please explain to us all, in exact detail, how you would prevent these things, all the while providing a guarantee that these prevented 'things' allows said individuals to get into heaven. Because, that's the main goal of every christian - get into heaven, and secondary goal of getting others into heaven to experience the 'grand joy of experiencing a loving god'.

If 'no man's an island' this should be easily shown, less it's simply a person, who is obviously perfect in evey way with nothing to concern themselves with in regards to bettering their own lives, being bored and butting into the lives of someone else on the other side of the continent/planet.

Or perhaps we should look at it from another direction:
Christianity has a history of harming others and taking away free will in modern times under the guise of 'love' and 'protection' so we take away all the negative influences this religion has on people who don't accept it or worship within it? We limit the influence christianity has on EVERYONE other than direct christians?
That sounds like a good plan, yes?

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 10 by Wootah]

Please show us all, in exact detail, how 2 women in Cali getting married does harm to Bob in Virgina (past the 'ew' factor).

Why are you asking Wootah this question? He talked about 'self harm,' not gay marriage or legalizing marijuana.

As for me, I couldn't care less about the married gay couple, except that said married gay couple wants more than 'I couldn't care less' from me. That couple wants me to change my beliefs, my opinions, and the way I practice my religion in order to accommodate them, even though they don't share my beliefs and probably wouldn't run into me in any way that would affect their marriage or their daily lives.

It's not enough, you see, that they get all the government issued legal rights. I have absolutely no problem with them getting every single one of 'em. They also want religious approval from everybody...even, or perhaps especially...from those religions they disagree and disapprove of.

But that is another argument, eternally recurring, and one I don't want to have at the moment.

Please show us all, in exact detail, how Bill and Ted smoking a doob in Colorado harms Mary in Queensland (past the 'ew' factor).

Wait.

Did Wootah say anything in post #10 about legalizing marijuana?

No?

Well then why are you demanding this from him? Are you really implying that the only possible 'self-harm' anyone can do to himself involves smoking weed and baking funny brownies?

er....and did he not refer to 'self-harm,' and not to any harm done others? Did you actually read his post, or did you just use the fact that there are printed words in it so that you could use them to jump into your own expressed opinion?

Do you think that, just perhaps, you might want to find out if someone actually holds an opinion you don't like before you challenge him on it?

As for me, I think that legalizing marijuana would be a good idea; with the same sort of safeguards placed on alcohol. Because I'm quite certain that you know that driving while under the influence of marijuana is just as problematic as doing so while drunk on alcohol.

I rather hope they do legalize marijuana. That means we can start growing hemp again for the purpose I think it is best used for: fabric. I have a spinning wheel and I'm not afraid to use it.

the problem with 'self harm,' though, is that Wootah is right. No person IS an island. Whatever one does to oneself affects others, sometimes severely.

One last thing: If you don't believe in heaven, why are you worried that anybody at all tells you that you aren't going there?

Trust me, Calvinists tell me all the time that I'm 'regenerate,' 'not of the elect,' and am headed for hell because I'm 'not a Christian." I just raise my eyebrows. I'd raise only one eyebrow but for some reason I've never been able to do that, raise just one. So they both go up.

Their threats mean nothing to me, because I believe that they are hollow threats. They don't have the authority to put me in a place that I don't think exists.

So now I have to ask you: if I were to tell you that you are headed for hell because you don't believe what I do (and I wouldn't do that, because I don't happen to believe that, just for the record), what difference does it make to you? You don't believe what I do, so how could my proclamations regarding your probable eternal destination mean didley squat to your life, your ability to enjoy the world and your interactions with others?

Or your opinion of yourself?

[connermt]

[Replying to post 13 by dianaiad]

Why are you asking Wootah this question? He talked about 'self harm,' not gay marriage or legalizing marijuana.

Once again, you missed the point of the thread entirely <sigh>. Because this is an ongoing issue with you, there's no need to try to explain it - AGAIN.

As for me, I couldn't care less about the married gay couple, except that said married gay couple wants more than 'I couldn't care less' from me.

That smacks of paranoia as NO WHERE did I say this couple gives two shakes about you or yours past the negative impact to them. And as a general rule, unless your marriage impacts mine, I don't give two rat's patoots about yours.
If you don't care about these two chicks getting married, mind your own business if it doesn't negatively impact you (and it doesn't - just to clarify for you). No one past you and your family gives a care about your marriage if it doesn't negatively impact them and likewise, you shouldn't give a care about anyone else's marriage if it doesn't negatively impact yours.
Your marriage - mind your own business
Their marriage - mind their own business
Your doob - mind your own business
Their doob - mind their own business.
Unless, of course, your life is so perfect that you have spare time, effort and energy to place your nose into the lives of others?
But since you 'don't care', your remaining post is pointless and argumentative and, as such, won't be addressed by me.
Thanks for the input

[Danmark]

Once again, you missed the point of the thread entirely <sigh>. Because this is an ongoing issue with you, there's no need to try to explain it - AGAIN.

That smacks of paranoia as NO WHERE did I say this couple gives two shakes about you or yours past the negative impact to them. And as a general rule, unless your marriage impacts mine, I don't give two rat's patoots about yours.
....
Unless, of course, your life is so perfect that you have spare time, effort and energy to place your nose into the lives of others?
But since you 'don't care', your remaining post is pointless and argumentative and, as such, won't be addressed by me.

Moderator Final Warning
Almost every line of this post is either personal, uncivil, or both, contributing nothing positive to the debate.
Please review the Rules.


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[connermt]

Once again, you missed the point of the thread entirely <sigh>. Because this is an ongoing issue with you, there's no need to try to explain it - AGAIN.

That smacks of paranoia as NO WHERE did I say this couple gives two shakes about you or yours past the negative impact to them. And as a general rule, unless your marriage impacts mine, I don't give two rat's patoots about yours.
....
Unless, of course, your life is so perfect that you have spare time, effort and energy to place your nose into the lives of others?
But since you 'don't care', your remaining post is pointless and argumentative and, as such, won't be addressed by me.

Moderator Final Warning
Almost every line of this post is either personal, uncivil, or both, contributing nothing positive to the debate.
Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator final warnings serve as the last strike towards users. Additional violations will result in a probation vote. Further infractions will lead to banishment. Any challenges or replies to moderator warnings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Absolutely personal in every way imaginable under the sun - if that makes her feel better. Because, that's what this site is about yeah - all about dianaiad being able to say what she wants with impunity.
Until dianaiad gets under control, she needs to be challenged in the same manner she attacks other posters.
She is constantly condescending, rude, arrogant and hateful to those who disagree with her. And NO, it's not about 'attitude' when dealing with her. If you're not a mormon who believes as she does, then she goes out of her way to be 'offended' like a spoiled child, or better yet, spoiled housewife with nothing to do but belittle people to make herself feel better. When her posts are reported the response is 'don't be petty'. Other posters have gotten personal IMs about her about 'dealing with her' like she is some kind of special case - everyone has to walk on egg shells around here with her. The immunity she has on this site is outrageous and needs to be corrected.
No need to ban me, I've already asked for the account to be deleted. I'm done with this place because of her and the constant rule braking she gets away with and the inability for MODs to address them with her even when reported.
"Debating christianity & Religion"? Should be called "Watch dianaiad get away with whatever uncivility she wants" forum because, for some reason (though I have a guess) she gets away with whatever she wants.
I'm out dianaiad, but it's a victory for me as I don't have to put up with your poor attitude towards your fellow human beings. And I've learned, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that mormoism, as represented by you, isn't worth the paper joey's book is printed on.

[Danmark]

Absolutely personal in every way imaginable under the sun....

Moderator Warning

Post 'Final Warning.' Under review for moderator action

Please review our Rules.

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Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 13 by dianaiad]

uncivilities aside

said married gay couple wants more than 'I couldn't care less' from me. That couple wants me to change my beliefs, my opinions, and the way I practice my religion in order to accommodate them, even though they don't share my beliefs and probably wouldn't run into me in any way that would affect their marriage or their daily lives.

that seems like an extraordinary claim care to demonstrate this actually happens?

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 13 by dianaiad]

uncivilities aside

said married gay couple wants more than 'I couldn't care less' from me. That couple wants me to change my beliefs, my opinions, and the way I practice my religion in order to accommodate them, even though they don't share my beliefs and probably wouldn't run into me in any way that would affect their marriage or their daily lives.

that seems like an extraordinary claim care to demonstrate this actually happens?

I'm a Mormon. I've had experience in the way the government handles religion in the matter of marriage when the religion's view of it conflicts with the government view of it.

As well, the bit with the photographer was sued because she wouldn't shoot a 'commitment ceremony' because her religion disapproved of same sex marriages.

There's that lawsuit against the Oregon bakery when the owners refused to make a wedding cake for the gay couple...and were not only sued and lost the suit, they were driven out of business because they did not want to approve of gay marriage; their religion was against it.

Even one of the groom's mother acknowledged that the bakery would provide cakes and catering for any other occasion for gays; just not the wedding cake. So it wasn't about the 'gay' part...the wedding was against their beliefs. Do you think for one minute that this bakery would have been sued if the owners had been Catholic and had refused to provide a cake for the wedding of a couple who still had an ex-husband or wife in the mix?

Had I been the photographer or the baker, I would have shot the ceremony and made the cake; my daughter is a photographer and she has 'done' a gay wedding. So this isn't about what I would do. It is, however, about the right of a religious person to refuse to participate in a religious ceremony that violates his or her own faith. The Supreme Court has decided that business people with religious objections to providing abortifactants don't have to do so.

But try telling a gay couple that it's against your religion to participate in (and thus show public approval of) their wedding, and your life is ruined.

it has happened. It will happen. Count on it.

[Danmark]

As for me, I couldn't care less about the married gay couple, except that said married gay couple wants more than 'I couldn't care less' from me. That couple wants me to change my beliefs, my opinions, and the way I practice my religion in order to accommodate them, even though they don't share my beliefs and probably wouldn't run into me in any way that would affect their marriage or their daily lives.

It's not enough, you see, that they get all the government issued legal rights. I have absolutely no problem with them getting every single one of 'em. They also want religious approval from everybody...even, or perhaps especially...from those religions they disagree and disapprove of.

I am close to agreeing with some of these sentiments, but not the spirit of it and not some of the presumed facts.

To the extent another's religious beliefs [or lack thereof] have no tangible effect on others, I agree that it's a big non issue; nothing to complain about. But it is rarely that simple. Beliefs on religion generally translate into voting decisions. But more importantly I am put in mind of the famous John Donne poem, the one Hemingway quoted in For Whom the Bell Tolls:

'No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.'

I prefer this to the "I couldn't care less" approach.
I am not suggesting that Dianaiad has such an indifferent attitude. I have reason to think otherwise. I am just reacting to the phrase. For too many who claim to be religious, their reaction to 'homosexuality' and same sex marriage' translates into genuine feelings of disgust and even hatred. Such feelings can't help but affect how they treat others, at least indirectly.

None of this could possibly be [nor should be] the object of legislation. It is equally wrong to expect someone to change his or her religious beliefs to fit another's ideal. And I do not think such is part of the so called 'gay agenda.'

I am suggesting that rather than "I couldn't care less," we should strive to practice person acceptance, even if we don't agree with accepting certain acts. I confess I frequently do not practice what I preach, even in my own heart.

But I can testify to the liberation I found when I let go of some anti gay thinking I found creeping into my mind 30 or so years ago. The first thing that happened was meeting some really great people and seeing them as multi dimensional and unique.