When does persuasion trample free will?

[Peter]

I'm confused... perpetually, but that's another issue.

If the Christian god exists then He knows exactly how to persuade me of His existence. I can tell you that it would take much less than the clouds parting and God coming down in a flaming chariot like some kind of biblical Santa Claus.

I know this persuasion happens all the time because I'm told that it does by Christians. Was their free will violated when God convinced them He exists? Are they simply "robots" now that they're convinced that the Christian god exists?

Please, I don't want to be a robot so clear this up for me! How much divine persuasion is acceptable before my free will is violated?

[Peter]

[Replying to ttruscott]

You know, if being fully aware of God's existence during pre-earth didn't stop us from having free will then, I don't see how being fully aware of God on earth would now.

Excellent point. It looks like it's back to the drawing board for you Ted if all you want is a story that's logically consistent.

[ttruscott]

...

"Worship me or spend eternity in hell" is not a free-will choice.

1. Why is it not a free will choice? What breaks the freeness of the will just in these options?

2. What definition of free will do you accept?

Peace, Ted

[Zzyzx]

.

"Worship me or spend eternity in hell" is not a free-will choice.

1. Why is it not a free will choice?

Coercion

If someone holds a gun to your head and says that if you do not smile s/he will put a bullet in your brain -- do you have "free will choice" in the matter?

What breaks the freeness of the will just in these options?

Coercion

2. What definition of free will do you accept?

Free and independent choice; voluntary decision; without force / coercion

[ten10ths]

.

"Worship me or spend eternity in hell" is not a free-will choice.

1. Why is it not a free will choice?

Coercion

If someone holds a gun to your head and says that if you do not smile s/he will put a bullet in your brain -- do you have "free will choice" in the matter?

What breaks the freeness of the will just in these options?

Coercion

2. What definition of free will do you accept?

Free and independent choice; voluntary decision; without force / coercion

Well explained. Coercion. Guilt. Fear. Hate masked as love. All unnecessary with a true god.
God of the bible is so human-like in its attitude, demeanor and actions that itself should be a red flag to some.
I guess hope, like love, causes people to do silly things lol

[instantc]

I think people always believe what they want to believe. Therefore it doesnt really matter how much evidence or proofs person gets, if he dont want to believe.

I assure you that I have come to believe many thinks during my life that I really wouldn't want to believe.

[instantc]

If someone holds a gun to your head and says that if you do not smile s/he will put a bullet in your brain -- do you have "free will choice" in the matter?

Yes you do. In fact, this has nothing to do with free will. You'll freely consider the situation and freely decide that smiling is probably the best option in those circumstances.

[1213]

"Worship me or spend eternity in hell" is not a free-will choice.

In my opinion it is. Person is free to choose. I understand that the choice may be tough for you, but none the less you can choose freely what you want.

[Peter]

"Worship me or spend eternity in hell" is not a free-will choice.

In my opinion it is. Person is free to choose. I understand that the choice may be tough for you, but none the less you can choose freely what you want.

I'm starting to waver on the coercion and free will issue.

All choices have consequences, so why, simply because the consequence is dire, is free will abrogated? Conversely, free will can't only apply to choices that are inconsequential.

The threat of eternal punishment is a nasty way for a god to influence a choice but knowing the consequences you're still free to choose.

I don't think we have free will for another reason. We never consciously understand all the reasons that influence a choice. I can demonstrate. Pick a random number between 1 and 100. Do you know why you picked the number you did or did it just bubble up from your subconscious?

You might argue that an important decision is fundamentally different than a trivial random number choice. It's not. You will think about it more and take a score of different things into consideration but there are always subconscious calculations that influence the final decision.

True free will would give us insight into every nook and cranny of our mind to determine exactly why we make a certain choice and, if necessary, countermand that choice. Simply put, free will is the ability to make a choice that we wouldn't, or didn't, make. I don't know about you but I can't do that.

So how can we be punished forever because of a choice we didn't fully understand the reasons for making so were unable to make the "right" choice?

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 18 by Peter]

Imho, free will is just the ability to make a choice.
Choices are necessarily subjective, and as far as the objective is concerned are purely illusive.

You don't need to "know the consequences" to make a choice.

A or B?
That's a choice. It may well be predetermined which you pick, but you still perceive a choice, and why would a choice exist outside of perception anyway?
You don't know the consequences of picking one, but you could still choose one and pick.

Though I would say that, depending on the context, you can speak of something having "less free will" i.e if it's being externally influenced, and the religious (esp Christians) seem to have different definitions of free will.
"Hardening the Pharoah's heart" seems to me to be a violation of what Christians call free will.

[Peter]

[Replying to post 18 by Peter]

Imho, free will is just the ability to make a choice.

I would call that free choice which amoeba technically have. Free will implies something more.

Choices are necessarily subjective, and as far as the objective is concerned are purely illusive.

You don't need to "know the consequences" to make a choice.

For free will you definitely need to know the consequences imho.

A or B?
That's a choice. It may well be predetermined which you pick, but you still perceive a choice, and why would a choice exist outside of perception anyway?
You don't know the consequences of picking one, but you could still choose one and pick.

Right, that's an inconsequential free choice decision.

Though I would say that, depending on the context, you can speak of something having "less free will" i.e if it's being externally influenced, and the religious (esp Christians) seem to have different definitions of free will.
"Hardening the Pharoah's heart" seems to me to be a violation of what Christians call free will.

I agree, Pharoah didn't even have free choice in that story.