Salvation from what?

[Peter]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

[ttruscott]

...

Am I living in sin simply for not believing in a god?
That doesn't seem very… righteous, especially for a god.

Not from the definition of believing as the world has it that you believe what you know and have experienced to be true but the failure of belief that leads to hell is a failure of faith, of hope and of trust - this is the un-belief that eternally separates a person from GOD and makes them eternally evil.

It is no small thing this unbelief that is really non-faith, rejection and disdain instead of trust... it is the cause of all evil, and therefore all the suffering that unbelievers accuse GOD of starting. Without evil there is no suffering and if no one chose to be eternally evil, there is no hell.

It is unbelief that causes all the suffering and horrors of this world.

NO innocents suffer here, only unbelievers, that is, the un-faithful, those who rebelled against following HIM as the best way to go, those who went their own way in the face of HIS warnings of the natural consequences of following such a decision.

The worldly definition of belief as acceptance from proof of something has no place in the scriptural discussion of belief which is faith, the essence of an unproven hope.

Belief in the world must be proved; belief in the spirit must be hoped, hope HE who promises eternal life is GOD and hope HE will reward us for our faith and trust in HIS promises...

Hiding behind the worldly use of the word belief might offer some bit of ease of mind but it is meaningless in spiritual arguments where only the the spiritual definition of belief holds sway.

Peace, Ted

[ten10ths]

[Replying to Wootah]

I'm saying there's no such thing as sacrifice in your worldview, because risking your mortal life is no sacrifice if by doing it you gain an immortal life.

That's an excellent point!
Though many things can be considered a sacrifice, the real meat of the issue is how MUCH of a sacrifice is it. And if you're relying on eternal bliss, there's not much to risk really.

Well, according to that definition Yeshua's death was not a "sacrifice". As the author of the letter to the Hebrews states, (Heb. 22:2) "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." He knew his death would just be a short term thing. Like many things in the Scriptures, many like to take their definition of things and impose them on the Scriptures. There are many kinds of sacrifices and there is a lot more to it than just killing something.

It's good that it's not a sacrifice being as I never asked for it. I don't need it.

[Apollo Sunrise]

[Replying to post 9 by 1213]

If one takes literally the words of Jesus as reported in the synoptic gospels, it takes more than just to receive the words that Jesus told. One must also act on them, and in a compassionate way, to all people: loved ones, enemies, strangers (such as the hated non-believing Samaritans), the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, the prisoner, and all the outcasts considered “the least of these.�

In Luke 10:25-37 (the parable of the Good Samaritan), Jesus says that if you love your neighbor as yourself, you will be saved. In this self-contained passage, Jesus does not mention faith or belief. The example he uses of that love of neighbor is of the non-believing enemy, the Samaritan.

In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus describes the final judgment and says that if you show compassionate for those who are hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, in prison, strangers or all those he called “the least of these,� you will be saved. Period. Again, no mention of faith or belief, or merely receiving the words that Jesus told. In fact, in the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 7:26-27, “And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.�

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 32 by ten10ths]

You don't get to ask for the sacrifices of your parents or soldiers or other people that paved the way for you. You can be grateful or ungrateful. Each choice has consequences.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 20 by Peter]

What you are saying is emotional and untrue. Ultimately it is all for nothing. Can you see that?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah]

I'm saying there's no such thing as sacrifice in your worldview, because risking your mortal life is no sacrifice if by doing it you gain an immortal life.

Yes the sacrifice is for others not for me. Sacrifice can't ever be for oneself. Jesus sacrifice was for us not for Jesus.

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to Wootah]

I'm saying there's no such thing as sacrifice in your worldview, because risking your mortal life is no sacrifice if by doing it you gain an immortal life.

Yes the sacrifice is for others not for me. Sacrifice can't ever be for oneself. Jesus sacrifice was for us not for Jesus.

People sacrifice for themselves all the time. For example, I've sacrificed drinking soda for better health.

But to the point, I still don't think you understand what I'm saying. It's not for lack of altruism, but for lack of personal loss that I say altruistic actions in the context of Christianity aren't genuine sacrifice. Personal loss is a necessary outcome of anything deserving to be called a "sacrifice".

What did Jesus's "sacrifice" cost him?

[Clownboat]

The Father threatens no one. If a gift is offered, you simply accept it or don't.

I'm curious, if we are to accept this gift, must we also accept human sacrifice to a god concept?

If so, I'm curious about what you have done in your life that would make you want to accept another human, being tortured and hung on a cross to die. Living on after death sounds great, but I have done nothing that would make me want to torture and kill another human over it. Thus, what is it that you have done? You can leave out the gory details if necessary of course.

[bluethread]

What did Jesus's "sacrifice" cost him?

It cost Him separation from Adonai for a short time. However, this is what I am talking about with regard to understanding terms. Giving something up is part of what has been translated as a "sacrifice"(zebach). However, it appears that is not the totality of the concept, or even the most important part. The one thing that all zebach have in common is that they are memorials. Many are commemorative meals. That is what I meant when I said that what Yeshua did was not a "sacrifice". It is not what most people think of when they hear the English term "sacrifice". The zebach of Yeshua is tied to Hebrew culture not Greco/Roman or modern western culture.

Clownboat:

I'm curious, if we are to accept this gift, must we also accept human sacrifice to a god concept?

If so, I'm curious about what you have done in your life that would make you want to accept another human, being tortured and hung on a cross to die. Living on after death sounds great, but I have done nothing that would make me want to torture and kill another human over it. Thus, what is it that you have done? You can leave out the gory details if necessary of course.

Yes, leave the gory details out. Most of them are RCC embellishments. Any gore involved in a Hebrew sacrifice is incidental and has more to do with the sensibilities of modern western culture than it does with the nature of the sacrifice. That said, we did not sacrifice Yeshua. Yeshua sacrificed Himself. The Romans and the Sanhedrin murdered Yeshua. Yeshua permitted that for the purposes of establishing the ultimate memorial of The Promise, in the manner of the Pesach.

[ten10ths]

[Replying to post 32 by ten10ths]

You don't get to ask for the sacrifices of your parents or soldiers or other people that paved the way for you. You can be grateful or ungrateful. Each choice has consequences.

Not true big W I can ask for ANYTHING - ANYTHING from ANYONE at ANYTIME. rather or not I get it is the question lol
I don't want, didn't ask for, don't need any super man to die for me when I didn't ask for it OR even if I DIDN'T as for it
See how that works?
What do I have to be grateful for? A omnipotent being creating everything in the universe and letting it fall to mere humans and then He comes in riding on a white horse like the lone cavalry survivor to SAVE me? That's amusing lol
I'll pass