The great josephus interpolation

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goodwithoutgod
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The great josephus interpolation

Post #1

Post by goodwithoutgod »

Flavius Josephus

Christian apologetic fans most popular non-Christian writer that mentions Jesus is Flavius Josephus. Although he was born in 37 CE and could not have been a contemporary of Jesus, he lived close enough to the time to be considered a valuable secondhand source. Josephus was a highly respected and much quoted Roman historian. He died sometime after the year 100 and his two major tomes were The antiquities of the Jews and the wars of the Jews. Antiquities was written sometime after the year 90 CE. In book 18, chapter 3, this paragraph is encountered:

now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works " a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, and condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

This does appear to give historical confirmation for the existence of Jesus. But is it authentic? Most scholars, including most fundamentalist scholars, admit that at least some parts of this paragraph cannot be authentic. Many are convinced that the entire paragraph is a complete forgery, an interpolation inserted by Christians at a later time. There are at least seven solid reasons for this:

1) The paragraph is absent from early copies of the works of Josephus. For example, it does not appear in Origens second century version of Josephus, in Origen Contra Celsum, where Origen fiercely defended Christianity against the heretical views of Celsus. Origen quoted freely from Josephus to prove his points, but never once used this paragraph, which would have been the ultimate ace up his sleeve.

In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear at all until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Emperor Constantine. Bishop Eusebius, a close ally of the Emperor, was instrumental in crystallizing and defining the version of Christianity was to become Orthodox, and he is the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus. Eusebius once wrote that it was a permissible medicine for historians to create fictions " prompting historian Jacob Burckhardt to call Eusebius the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.

The fact that Josephus " Jesus paragraph shows up at this point in history " at a time when interpolations and revisions were quite common and when the Emperor was eager to demolish gnostic Christianity and replace it with literalistic Christianity " makes the passage quite dubious. Many scholars believe that Eusebius was the forger and interpolator of the paragraph on Jesus that magically appears in the works of Josephus.

2) Josephus would not have called Jesus the Christ or the truth. Whoever wrote these phrases was a believing Christian. Josephus was a messianic Jew, and he truly believed Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah (the Christ), he certainly would have given more than a passing reference to him. Josephus never converted to Christianity. Origen reported that Josephus was not believing in Jesus as the Christ.

3) The passage is out of context. Book 18 (containing the interval of 32 years from the banishment of Archelus to the departure from Babylon) starts with Roman taxation under Cyrenius in 6 CE and talks about various Jewish sexts at the time, including the Essenes and a sect of Judas the Galilean, which he devotes three times more space than to Jesus. He discusses at great depth the local history in great detail. But oddly this single paragraph can be listed out of the text with no damage to the chapter or the way it flows. Almost as if it was added after the fact, which of course it was.

4) The phrase to this day shows that this is a later interpolation. There was no tribe of Christians during Josephus' time. Christianity did not get off the ground until the second century.

5) In all of Josephus voluminuous works, there is not a single reference to Christianity anywhere outside of this tiny paragraph. He relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus. He lists the activities of many other self-proclaimed Messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the magician and the Egyptian Jew Messiah, but is mute about the life of one whom he claims (if he had actually wrote it) is the answer to this messianic hopes.

6) The paragraph mentions that the divine prophets foretold the life Jesus, but Josephus neglects to mention who these prophets were or what they said. In no other place does Josephus connect any Hebrew prediction with the life of Jesus. If Jesus truly had been the fulfillment of divine prophecy, as Christians believe, Josephus wouldve been the one learned enough to document it.

7) The hyperbolic language of the paragraph is uncharacteristic of a careful historian: As the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him This sounds more like sectarian propaganda " in other words, more like the new testament " then objective reporting. It is very unlike Josephus.

Christians should be careful when they refer to Josephus as historical confirmation for Jesus. If we remove the forged paragraph, as we should, the works of Josephus become evidence against historicity. Josephus was a native of Judea and a contemporary of the apostles. He was governor of Galilee for a time, the province in which Jesus allegedly lived and taught. He transversed every part of this province and visited the places where but a generation before Christ performed his prodigies. He resided in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle. He mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event that occurred there during the first 70 years of the Christian era. But Christ was of so little consequence and his deeds too trivial to merit a line from this historians pen.

So gentle readers, anyone wish to debate this little gem? 8-)

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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #11

Post by Korah »

Zzyzx wrote: .
Korah wrote: That story is among my Thesis that the four gospels contain seven written eyewitness accounts by people who knew Jesus.
Edited to add: How is the "eyewitness account thesis" related to the Josephus Interpolation (subject of this thread)?
gwg would have us all upset that some or all of a paragraph in Josephus about Jesus may not be true history. That would be of little consequence if before Josephus was born (in 37 A. D.) several of seven eyewitness accounts about Jesus had already been written. Sometimes we are most blind to what everyone sees without question.
(Before 37 the Passion Narrative, Q, and the Johannine Discourses. The further advantage to the latter is that their origination in a hostile account by Nicodemus would both explain why John is so different from the Synoptics and why so many of us have objections to what Jesus is quoted in John as saying He was.)

Whether or not I say there were seven written eyewitness accounts about Jesus in the four gospels does not change the fact that there is evidence here that must be dealt with one way or another. This can't be waved away by scorning me.

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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #12

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Korah wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:
Korah wrote: That story is among my Thesis that the four gospels contain seven written eyewitness accounts by people who knew Jesus.
Edited to add: How is the "eyewitness account thesis" related to the Josephus Interpolation (subject of this thread)?
gwg would have us all upset that some or all of a paragraph in Josephus about Jesus may not be true history.
Perhaps you are unaware than MANY Christian scholars and Theologians consider the TF to be a later addition (a "pious fraud") " and it is not just Gwg's opinion.

Korah wrote: That would be of little consequence if before Josephus was born (in 37 A. D.) several of seven eyewitness accounts about Jesus had already been written.
IF there had been valid written eyewitness accounts from earlier it may not have been necessary for anyone to falsify the work of Josephus.
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Korah
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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #13

Post by Korah »

[Replying to post 11 by Zzyzx]
As you see, Z,
gwg is extrapolating the Josephus Interpolation into a wholescale denial of the historicity of Jesus, so my posts on this thread are quite relevant.

Even today when someone (myself) is telling people that eyewitness writing are contained within the gospels, but without recognition, how much more in the time of Eusebius (as you say) 300 years later when no one was suggesting this, would a forger have felt the need to state some testimony outside the gospels! None of the gospels even stated internally who had written it, so for them the gospels could have been questioned as not authentic.

Here 2000 years after the fact we have Higher Criticism and other scientific means of investigating the gospels that Eusebius (as you say) would not have had. leaving a motive to forge a near-contemporary history in support. We don't need Josephus--our scholars tend to agree on how early are Q and the Passion Narrative. What we need to do is get better evaluation of the evidence in the gospels themselves, just what I have been trying to do in spite of you waving me off.

goodwithoutgod
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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #14

Post by goodwithoutgod »

[Replying to post 10 by Korah]

No one, who wrote of jesus, knew him, thus it is all based on oral tradition, i.e. hearsay. I can break down every reference of jesus, and have many times, none of them whether it is in the NT or non Christian sources, knew him, they all write based on someone elses "witness". I find it rather odd with someone doing such amazing feats/miracles that not one person at the time deemed it important enough to write down, as I broke down above....historians are oddly silent in reference to this alleged amazing individual who performed miracles like benny hinn on a world tour. Please provide your sources. I have duty today (military officer) and a busy day tomorrow but I will swing by when I get a chance and endeavor to assist you in going through them together. I feel 100% confident nothing new has been discovered in the last week that would change the fact that, no one who wrote of jesus knew him....no, not even Paul.

Dan Unterbrink
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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #15

Post by Dan Unterbrink »

[Replying to post 9 by goodwithoutgod]

Have you ever considered that the "Jesus" passage (TF) in Josephus is simply a replacement passage, where the death of Jesus (never mentioned before or after this passage) replaced the death of Judas the Galilean? Josephus wrote extensively about Judas the Galilean but curiously did not record his death.

In Ant. 20.102, Josephus wrote: "...the sons of Judas the Galilean were now slain, I mean that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews. ...The names of those sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified." (Note that Acts 12 also imprisoned a Simon (Peter) and James).

Josephus again referred back to Judas the Galilean when discussing another one of his sons in 66 AD. "Meanwhile one Menahem, son of Judas the Galilean, the very clever rabbi who in the time of Quirinius had once reproached the Jews for submitting to the Romans after serving God alone..." (War 2.433-434)

Finally, in War 7.253, Josephus referred back to Judas the Galilean when describing Judas' grandson Eleazar.

And it may be possible that Josephus referred back to Judas once again when writing about James the Just (Ant. 20.200-214). Note that James' death was avenged by the Sicarii, followers of Judas the Galilean's fourth philosophy.

How is it that Josephus wrote about Judas the Galilean when talking about his children and grandchildren, but forgot to write about this great teacher's death? (By the way, Josephus also neglected to write about Sadduc's death, unless Sadduc was really John the Baptist (Robert Eisenman and I agree on this as well)).

Daniel T. Unterbrink
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Korah
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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #16

Post by Korah »

[Replying to post 13 by goodwithoutgod]
Once again you reply as if you had not read my post. Earlier you had ignored my Post #7 that detailed all the posts where you could find my Thesis that there are seven written eyewitness accounts to Jesus. The four gospels exist, and everyone dates them earlier than your long list of historians who did not mention Jesus.

I also draw your attention to my current post on the thread, "Why are all the scholars changing their minds..."

The point is not to deal again with your list, as you cannot prove a negative. Deal with my list, the evidence which no one else here seems able to deal.

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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #17

Post by goodwithoutgod »

[Replying to post 15 by Korah]

Once again you reply with reference to some earlier post you made, I click the link provided and play chase the thread trying to find your posit. Perhaps you could provide the info here, and I will give it the attention it is due when I have a chance. Again, I would be VERY surprised if it is new information that I have not already debunked in many, many papers posted in various places, but hey, I am game. Post away. Show me where there is a single written document referencing jesus from an actual physical witness, not hearsay, not oral tradition, not pseudepigrapha, not interpolations, parables and allegorical writings of which are the foundation of the bible. Show me the money...

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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #18

Post by Zzyzx »

.
goodwithoutgod wrote: Show me where there is a single written document referencing jesus from an actual physical witness, not hearsay, not oral tradition, not pseudepigrapha, not interpolations, parables and allegorical writings of which are the foundation of the bible. Show me the money...
I agree with GwoG. SHOW ME. Don't just repeatedly state opinions and conjectures.

Reading and rereading your posts, Korah, confirms that they are conjecture and opinion -- and confirms why they are not taken seriously by scholars and theologians (or Forum members).
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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #19

Post by Korah »

goodwithoutgod wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Korah]

Once again you reply with reference to some earlier post you made, I click the link provided and play chase the thread trying to find your posit. Perhaps you could provide the info here, and I will give it the attention it is due when I have a chance. Again, I would be VERY surprised if it is new information that I have not already debunked in many, many papers posted in various places, but hey, I am game. Post away. Show me where there is a single written document referencing jesus from an actual physical witness, not hearsay, not oral tradition, not pseudepigrapha, not interpolations, parables and allegorical writings of which are the foundation of the bible. Show me the money...
It used to be, here on DC&T, that they demanded I bring my documentation over here, so I did, in that thread you don't have time to sort through. Perhaps you prefer to go to an outside site where my argument is all layed out in order, and I already gave you two choices in my other post yesterday,
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... a48e35cfc5
"Why are all the scholars changing their minds..."
where you can take your choice between Christian Forums and EarlyChristianWritings.com
You will see there that my case is not at all like anything you have already seen, much less anything you have already refuted. Then you can return here and refute me post-by-post in the thread linked at my Post #7 here.
"How can we determine which parts of scripture are true?"
Or you can at least be the first to try. No one here has even tried yet.

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Re: The great josephus interpolation

Post #20

Post by goodwithoutgod »

[Replying to post 18 by Korah]

Nope, sorry. I don't concur with your posit, or your finding of a "liberal scholar" who tries to justify this perspective. The vast number of biblical scholars agree that the gospels were NOT all written before 70 CE, nor that they were written by the alleged author of which the pseudo-anonymous author/s attributed the book to. Paul never met jesus, no one who wrote of jesus knew him, and the book is so full of pseudepigrapha and interpolations it is hard to separate fact from fiction.

Speaking of interpolations though, my favorite interpolation is the Mark (16:1-20) resurrection myth. The verses 9-20 are not found in the earlier manuscripts, and are therefore considered later additions (interpolation) by some well meaning christian who sought to further the legend. So the gospel of Mark ended without anyone seeing the resurrected jesus, or any of the cool stuff about snake handling, drinking poison etc....and think about that particular strain of christianity that dances around with the snakes, because it is in the "scripture"...no actually that was more fabrication after the fact..priceless.

But back to your timeline in reference to the gospels...

Matthew: The Gospel of Matthew is generally believed to have been composed between 70 and 110, with most scholars preferring the period 80"90; a pre-70 date remains a minority view. The anonymous author was probably a highly educated Jew, intimately familiar with the technical aspects of Jewish law, and the disciple Matthew was probably honored within his circle. The author drew on three main sources to compose his gospel: the Gospel of Mark; the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source; and material unique to his own community, called "Special Matthew", or the M source. Note the part where I said...disciple matthew honored...and anonymous writer...do some research. Knowledge is power, and quite liberating.

Luke/Acts: Luke: Tradition holds that the text was written by Luke the companion of Paul (named in Colossians 4:14). Many modern scholars reject this view.

Mark: Most modern scholars reject the tradition which ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist, the companion of Peter, and regard it as the work of an unknown author working with various sources including collections of miracle stories, controversy stories, parables, and a passion narrative.

John: The gospel identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." Although the text does not name this disciple, by the beginning of the 2nd century, a tradition had begun to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus' innermost circle). Although some notable New Testament scholars affirm traditional Johannine scholarship, the majority do not believe that John or one of the Apostles wrote it, and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John.

Peter - Many scholars question the authorship of Peter of the epistles. Even within the first epistle, it says in 5:12 that Silvanus wrote it. Most scholars consider the second epistle as unreliable or an outright forgery. The unknown authors of the epistles of Peter wrote long after the life of the traditional Peter. Moreover, Peter lived (if he ever lived at all) as an ignorant and illiterate peasant (even Acts 4:13 attests to this). In short, no one has any way of determining whether the epistles of Peter come from fraud, an author claiming himself to know what Peter said (hearsay), or from someone trying to further the aims of the Church. Encyclopedias usually describe a tradition that Saint Peter wrote them. However, whenever you see the word "tradition" it refers to a belief passed down within a society. In other words: hearsay. This is the definition of Pseudepigrapha; a book written in a biblical style and ascribed to an author who did not write it...otherwise known as a FORGERY.

James - Epistle of James mentions Jesus only once as an introduction to his belief. Nowhere does the epistle reference a historical Jesus and this alone eliminates it from an historical account.

Jude - Even early Christians argued about its authenticity. It quotes an apocryphal book called Enoch as if it represented authorized Scripture. Biblical scholars do not think it possible for the alleged disciple Jude to have written it because whoever wrote it had to have written it during a period when the churches had long existed. Like the other alleged disciples, Jude would have lived as an illiterate peasant and unable to write (much less in Greek) but the author of Jude wrote in fluent high quality Greek..more forgery.

paul - written about 60 C.E., of the 13, he actually wrote 8. Not a single instance in any of Paul's writings claims that he ever meets or sees an earthly Jesus, nor does Paul give any reference to Jesus' life on earth (except for a few well known interpolations - Bible interpolation, or Bible redaction, is the art of adding stuff to the Bible). Therefore, all accounts about a Jesus could only have come from other believers or his imagination. Hearsay.

Theres no indication from Scripture that Paul and Jesus ever met before the Damascus Road incident. And Acts 9:4-7 doesnt specify whether the Lords encounter with Paul was physical or not. It only says Paul saw a bright light and heard a voice. (hallucination/lie)The men with him heard a loud sound but didnt see anything. In subsequent re-tellings of the encounter Paul never indicated that He had actually seen Jesus at that time.

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