Paul, the first heretic?

[Elijah John]

I have long wondered why the correspondence of Paul have taken on the authority of revealed, sacred Scripture.

At best, I will contend that Paul was a theologian who had some good things to say, but as Z stated in another thread, hijacked Christianity and tailored it for a Roman-Pagan audience.

Judaism+Mediterranean Paganism =Trinitarian Christianity seems to be the formula.

But the way I see it, Paul's interpretation of the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth, is a theological interpretation, and are his OPINIONS of the significance of the event.

But don't it beat all,* whole Churches and denominations have been founded on Paul's opinions!

And also as Z pointed out, that Paul never met Jesus in person, only in a vision. James, the brother of Jesus did not readily accept him as an apostle, according to many historical Jesus scholars.

Question for debate, did Paul hijack Christianity, making him the first or most influential heretic, or was Paul a true apostle of God and Christ?

Is it wise to found a whole religion on one man's vision, in this case from the road to Damascus?


(*Thanks to the inspiration of Joey K for the very useful phrase)

[YahDough]

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But Paul just helped keep Christianity going. Christ (the man) founded it in accordance to GOD the Father's will.

From what I read Jesus (as described in bible stories) sought to reform Judaism -- NOT start a competing religion.

Faith V. Works is an interesting "competition". I would say Jesus came to fulfill Judaism, not exactly "reform" it. The "law" is important, but grace through faith is more important.

Is "grace through faith" being more important than "the law" *or "works" a concept from Jesus and the Jesus movement within Judaism or is that Paul/Saul's contribution when appealing to the gentiles, pagans and Romans?

"Grace through faith" was/is a concept both Jesus and Paul embraced. (Jn:11:25,26) (Eph:2:8): It is my conclusion that "works" will be a product of genuine faith, but if not "Faith" itself is a work. Consider the theif on the cross. A change of heart was enough to win his salvation. (Lk:23:43: )

After he is said to have died, followers apparently "deified" him and took the splinter group religion to the Romans / gentiles / pagans where it found support and flourished.

I don't think devout Christianity ever "flourished" in those days except in some pocket areas.

Perhaps you are unaware the Christianity became the official approved religion of the Roman empire during the fourth century and beyond. If that is not "flourishing" what is?

I think after the 2nd century and Constantine the church became pagan and worldly. Paul prophesied about it. (Acts:20:29:)

Do you (generic term) have indications that Jesus (himself) intended or aspired to form a church separate from Judaism?

Well we have the words of Christ on what seem to be His "intentions"
The Jewish nation (Judaism) got the first call.

Jesus said about Himself:
Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mt:15:24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jn:10:16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I do not disagree that words attributed to Jesus may have been to "fulfill" Judaism or reform it from what it had become under the temple priests.

Good. I think we see a similar thing happening in some of the christian churches of today. Only now the churches are pushing too much grace (liberalism unto sin) instead of too much law. This seems to be happening as the Jews come back into the fold. (Romans 11: 25-31)

[kayky]

YahDough,

How can there be "too much" grace?

In what way is liberalism related to sin?

In what way are Jews coming back into "the fold"?

[Danmark]

Question for debate, did Paul hijack Christianity, making him the first or most influential heretic, or was Paul a true apostle of God and Christ?

Is it wise to found a whole religion on one man's vision, in this case from the road to Damascus?

With as much evidence as you are demonstrating I feel Paul's theology matches all the other books in the New Testament Bible. I don't think there is any basis for your claims at all.

Remove the books of the New Testament that are attributed to Paul, or about Paul [Acts] and all you have left is pamphlet highlighted by the ravings of an anonymous science fiction writer who put his dreams and visions into print. The 'revelation' of 'John' of Patmos was the last book accepted into the Canon by some; still rejected by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Paul virtually singlehandedly created 'Christianity,' with a giant assist from Constantine. The religion is as 'made up' and fictional as Scientology.

[kayky]

All religions are "made up." That doesn't mean they have no value.

[Danmark]

All religions are "made up." That doesn't mean they have no value.

I agree completely. But I think something great was lost when Paul corrupted the message of Jesus. I think Jesus made an important and vital contribution to Judaism and morality. Paul destroyed that by changing the message to one that became a partisan rival instead of a moral revolution.

[Elijah John]

Question for debate, did Paul hijack Christianity, making him the first or most influential heretic, or was Paul a true apostle of God and Christ?

Is it wise to found a whole religion on one man's vision, in this case from the road to Damascus?

With as much evidence as you are demonstrating I feel Paul's theology matches all the other books in the New Testament Bible. I don't think there is any basis for your claims at all.

Remove the books of the New Testament that are attributed to Paul, or about Paul [Acts] and all you have left is pamphlet highlighted by the ravings of an anonymous science fiction writer who put his dreams and visions into print. The 'revelation' of 'John' of Patmos was the last book accepted into the Canon by some; still rejected by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Paul virtually singlehandedly created 'Christianity,' with a giant assist from Constantine. The religion is as 'made up' and fictional as Scientology.

Well, not ALL of the remainding NT books were written by the mystic John, you seem to be forgetting about the Synoptics, Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Just wondering if you think the invented and fictional nature of Christianity as exemplifed by Paul and John extends also to the teachings of Jesus, as we know him in the Synoptics?

[Elijah John]

All religions are "made up." That doesn't mean they have no value.

I agree completely. But I think something great was lost when Paul corrupted the message of Jesus. I think Jesus made an important and vital contribution to Judaism and morality. Paul destroyed that by changing the message to one that became a partisan rival instead of a moral revolution.

Actually, this answers my question, I think we posted pretty much at the same time.

[YahDough]

How can there be "too much" grace?

I suppose for an unrepentant sinner there can never be enough grace, but people who think they can continue in sin after repentance are expecting "too much grace".
Do you subscribe to "cheap grace" for Christians? Do you think God will tolerate sin forever? Have you heard the term "give a person enough rope and they will hang themselves"?

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."- (Paul to the Romans.)

In what way is liberalism related to sin?

It depends on what one is liberal about.

In what way are Jews coming back into "the fold"?

The Israelite's were God's chosen people to receive the Old Covenant established by the Law. The descendant's of the Israelite's, the Jews, were the first to receive the New Covenant established by faith/belief in Christ. Most of the Jews rejected Jesus and the Gospel of Jesus was preached to the Gentiles. Now, in the fullness of time, the Jews have the opportunity to regain "chosen" status by returning to the LORD through Christ Jesus.

Jesus said to the Jews:
And other sheep (Gentiles) I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Jews were the original "fold".

[Danmark]

Question for debate, did Paul hijack Christianity, making him the first or most influential heretic, or was Paul a true apostle of God and Christ?

Is it wise to found a whole religion on one man's vision, in this case from the road to Damascus?

With as much evidence as you are demonstrating I feel Paul's theology matches all the other books in the New Testament Bible. I don't think there is any basis for your claims at all.

Remove the books of the New Testament that are attributed to Paul, or about Paul [Acts] and all you have left is pamphlet highlighted by the ravings of an anonymous science fiction writer who put his dreams and visions into print. The 'revelation' of 'John' of Patmos was the last book accepted into the Canon by some; still rejected by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Paul virtually singlehandedly created 'Christianity,' with a giant assist from Constantine. The religion is as 'made up' and fictional as Scientology.

Well, not ALL of the remainding NT books were written by the mystic John, you seem to be forgetting about the Synoptics, Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Just wondering if you think the invented and fictional nature of Christianity as exemplifed by Paul and John extends also to the teachings of Jesus, as we know him in the Synoptics?

You're right. I excepted the Gospels, especially the synoptics, but failed to make that clear.

[ThePainefulTruth]

All religions are "made up." That doesn't mean they have no value.

Essentially it does. Anything founded on a lie will only putrefy as it corrupts itself from within, defending and growing the lie. Any possible good associated with it, such as charity, would be much better in a secular setting.