Is God logically possible?

[atheist buddy]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15


That's like saying this:

Skippy is a cat
Cats are not dogs
Skippy is a dog

Logically impossible. Therefore God does not exist.

Question for debate: Is there any way to escape the fact that the Biblical attributes of God are logically contradictory and clearly violate the Law of Identity? Is there any way to come to any conclusion other than that God, as described in the Bible, doesn't exist?

[arian]

Well, .. you really should read the Bible because you are understanding it backwards. You are looking at Gods justice from the end, 6,000 years after the fall.
How about starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

There was ONE, .. yes just ONE little itsy bitsy teeny weeny request, not a law, a request from two healthy perfect beings with no history of emotional problems, or child abuse, or alcohol abuse, drug abuse, no bills to pay, no job loss, no divorces, no need to consider abortion, no wars or rumors of wars, never even known what sickness and disease was, didn't even experienced a little fever .. no problems whatsoever, and only ONE request; Genesis 2:17(NKJV)

17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.�

Was she hungry and just couldn't find food?
Nope.
was the fruit so much more appetizing then all the other fruits?
Nope, she even had to convince herself that it was edible, not something gross. "Yea, it looks pretty good, good enough to eat!?"

Let me get this straight. So Adam and Eve ate an apple, and all of their descendants deserve to be tortured for eternity as a price?

For EATING AN APPLE?

And that's fair to you?

Man chose to taste death, or evil which is death. Actually the woman and the man, husband and the wife, the father and the mother of all human children. I have no idea how it would have been if only Eve took of the fruit? But if both the original father and mother is stung by death, so goes the whole family of man.

But Jesus did not sin, so He brought life to all mankind. One brought death, and one brought life, sounds fare to me!

Also, before eating from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, Adam and Eve HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG. BEcause they hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong, yet!

Therefore they had no way of knowing that it was wrong to disobey God.

Here is where religion has perverted our minds with so many different divinations that we can't even see what the bible really said. Even I get pulled in at times to old religious preaching from ignorance. It was not about knowing right and wrong, that's crazy. Here, read it again;

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’�

Does that sound like she don't know that it is wrong to eat from it? NO. She even tells the serpent. They didn't age, so they may have been in the Garden for a very long time, and must have past by that tree thousands of times, yet never took from it, or never touched it because God said not to.

It was when the serpent deceived Eve that she will not die, see?
As I said, look: "Evil is death" and "Good is Life"

So what Satan really said was that she will not really know evil, only Eve didn't catch it. If she did, she would have said: "What the hell should I go against my Fathers wishes if I will not know the evil part (death), and that's what you're saying Satan, that I will not die, which is knowing the evil part. No thanks."

It's like if I wrote "DON'T READ THIS SENTENCE OR I WILL KILL YOU".

You have no way of knowing that you shouldn't have read the sentence until you read it.
Similarly, Adam and Eve had no way of knowing that it was wrong to eat from the tree, until they ate from the tree.

lol, .. no my friend, that would of been if God didn't warn them, and just let them eat from it without knowing.

Genesis 2:17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.�

"Of every tree" they may eat, twenty different apple trees, twenty different apples, they can eat all they want. But what was different about his particular fruit (apple) tree? It was the knowledge of good 'AND' evil. They knew only life/good, but pain suffering, .. evil/death they knew nothing of.

Eating fruit wasn't evil, the fruit wasn't evil, evil was pain and suffering and death. Would you consider yourself wiser if you could tell your grandkids all about pain, suffering and death? Would THEY be wiser by feeling, .. living this pain and suffering and death, or just knowing about it?

God told them "Don't!!!! Or you will Die!!"

The serpent said what?

Genesis 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.�

What is evil? Evil is death. What Satan actually said was; "you will know Good (life) and evil (Death) and by this man will be God."

I doubt with all my heart and all the wisdom given me that they must have understood what death was, it was the opposite of life. Why I believe this, because every one of us understands what death is, and NOT ONE of us experienced it.

Another lie was that experiencing death somehow would make them wiser? Please tell me if you told your 4 year old that; "Hey son, you want to get real wise? Put this gun against your head and pull the trigger!" and I'm sure your son would laugh at you and maybe even say: "Daddy, .. that's crazy! Stop it, not funny!"

God made it impossible for Adam and Eve to do the right thing.

Punishing somebody for a crime that they couldn't possibly know was a crime is evil.

Yes, that would be evil. That's why God made it perfectly clear, don't even touch it. Like; "Don't go too close to the fire, you might get burnt!" .. "don't even touch it, don't take any chances, you may be playing with it, and the next thing you know you may take a bite from it."

Satan tricked them; "You will know good and evil (life and death as God said), .. but you will not surely die".

They died, and they got separated from God instead of becoming like Him.

It's not too late, we still have a chance for life, all of us. Just Take of the Tree of Life; Jesus Christ and live. "He that takes of Me (Jesus) shall live forever"

[Thunder9010]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15

You did fail to mention that Greek is not Hebrew and Hebrew is not Greek. 1 John and 1 Corinthians were written in Greek. Deuteronomy was written in Hebrew. We have every reason to expect that a lot of things get lost in the translation. What does God intend when he tells Israel that he is "a jealous God"? He's telling them to not worship any other gods. What is God's motivation in this warning?

I love my wife. On the other hand, I absolutely will not tolerate her running around sleeping with other men. We have both made it very clear that such behavior on either of our parts is not going to be tolerated. Does that understanding between us prove that we don't love truly love each other? Have we now proven that I am a contradictory being and that I don't exist?

Setting that aside, let's look at the words being used: קִנְ�ָה (qinah) is the word that is rendered "jealous" in our English Bibles. Strong's definition of the Hebrew word: ardor, zeal, jealousy. So the Hebrew קִנְ�ָה (qinah) encompasses all three of those concepts.

What is the Greek word? ζηλόω (zéloó). Strong's definition: To envy, be jealous. The context of the word in Greek is largely colored by the Greek god of envy, Phthonos, which generally casts the word in a more negative light.

I am by no means a language expert, but even I can see that while the Greek word is probably the best possible translation of the Hebrew word, the Hebrew word does not actually mean exactly the same thing. Kind of like love and lust, you have two words that are very close in meaning. One has a very positive connotation. The other has a very negative connotation. But both could be used to describe a exactly the same romantic feelings or experiences.

[Mudcat]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15


That's like saying this:

Skippy is a cat
Cats are not dogs
Skippy is a dog

Logically impossible. Therefore God does not exist.

Question for debate: Is there any way to escape the fact that the Biblical attributes of God are logically contradictory and clearly violate the Law of Identity? Is there any way to come to any conclusion other than that God, as described in the Bible, doesn't exist?

Mudcat is a bassist
Bassists are not drummers
Mudcat is a drummer

At least this syllogism is true... and I think the logical conclusion would be that I can be more than one thing. If God exists, which I believe He does, I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

To the question. I think the Bible points to the notion that God is a multifaceted, complex being. I don't think multifaceted, complex beings violate the Law of Identity and are not logically contradictory.

[McCulloch]

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

How about the Christian scriptures? Remember, the scriptures say that God is love, not that God experiences love or has love or is merely a source of love. Are you claiming that Paul was mistaken?

[arian]

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

How about the Christian scriptures? Remember, the scriptures say that God is love, not that God experiences love or has love or is merely a source of love. Are you claiming that Paul was mistaken?

God is both good and evil, love and hate, forgiving and jealous.

"God is good"
"McCulloch is a good man"
"God is jealous when it comes to His children, He is a jealous God"
"McCulloch is jealous when it comes to his wife, he is a jealous man"
"God is love, because He will not tolerate his children whoring around committing adultery with other gods that are not even gods. He gets jealous of this. Not of the god that are not gods, but of us, created in His own image, and for us to bow down to idols is just not tolerable for Him."

Why is this so hard to understand is truly beyond me? And then to say that because of this self inflicted confusion, 'God is a logical impossibility'!?!?

[atheist buddy]

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

How about the Christian scriptures? Remember, the scriptures say that God is love, not that God experiences love or has love or is merely a source of love. Are you claiming that Paul was mistaken?

God is both good and evil, love and hate, forgiving and jealous.

"God is good"
"McCulloch is a good man"
"God is jealous when it comes to His children, He is a jealous God"
"McCulloch is jealous when it comes to his wife, he is a jealous man"
"God is love, because He will not tolerate his children whoring around committing adultery with other gods that are not even gods. He gets jealous of this. Not of the god that are not gods, but of us, created in His own image, and for us to bow down to idols is just not tolerable for Him."

Why is this so hard to understand is truly beyond me? And then to say that because of this self inflicted confusion, 'God is a logical impossibility'!?!?

You are absolutely right.

As long as God is not an unchanging eternal perfect entity, but an imperfect person with mood swings, it's totally understandable that some days he will kill you because he's jealous, other days he will not.

It's not like he's God or anything! He's just some dude.

Got it. Thanks.

[atheist buddy]

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

How about the Christian scriptures? Remember, the scriptures say that God is love, not that God experiences love or has love or is merely a source of love. Are you claiming that Paul was mistaken?

God is both good and evil, love and hate, forgiving and jealous.

"God is good"
"McCulloch is a good man"
"God is jealous when it comes to His children, He is a jealous God"
"McCulloch is jealous when it comes to his wife, he is a jealous man"

And by the way, if McCulloch killed his wife because he was jealous, he would no longer be a good man

[arian]

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

I see no reason to not afford Him the same courtesy and assume that God can be both jealous and love, while recognizing that love and jealous are two different things.

How about the Christian scriptures? Remember, the scriptures say that God is love, not that God experiences love or has love or is merely a source of love. Are you claiming that Paul was mistaken?

God is both good and evil, love and hate, forgiving and jealous.

"God is good"
"McCulloch is a good man"
"God is jealous when it comes to His children, He is a jealous God"
"McCulloch is jealous when it comes to his wife, he is a jealous man"
"God is love, because He will not tolerate his children whoring around committing adultery with other gods that are not even gods. He gets jealous of this. Not of the god that are not gods, but of us, created in His own image, and for us to bow down to idols is just not tolerable for Him."

Why is this so hard to understand is truly beyond me? And then to say that because of this self inflicted confusion, 'God is a logical impossibility'!?!?

You are absolutely right.

As long as God is not an unchanging eternal perfect entity, but an imperfect person with mood swings, it's totally understandable that some days he will kill you because he's jealous, other days he will not.

It's not like he's God or anything! He's just some dude.

Got it. Thanks.

1 Corinthians 3:2
I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;

So once again, .. you don't have any MORE emotion, feeling, trait then in whose 'image' you were created. You get jealous because it is a trait that you got from your Heavenly Father.

Now if God didn't poses the 'jealousy' trait but we humans do, He wouldn't be perfect. We can't have anything that God doesn't have.

Can you tell me what is your understanding of perfect? Would someone who is always friendly be your definition of perfect, or could this person get mad sometime too, .. you know, at the proper time with controlled anger?

[arian]

And by the way, if McCulloch killed his wife because he was jealous, he would no longer be a good man

Hey buddy, that actually makes sense. So the question is, can God get sick and tired of the human race He has created to a point He destroys them all?

Well let's see now? If you created a bunch of AI robots in your image, put them on a beautiful planet, with everything they will ever need, and they trash the planet, they kill each other (even the robots you were very fond of), you send other robots from your 'special collection' to warn them you are getting really pissed off and thinking to destroy them all, and they kill your messengers, .. others they beat them to an inch of them being operational with a message: "Here atheist buddy our creator, .. here is the message we send back to you; we'll do as we please, we'll like who we want, and kill who we chose. If we trash this planet, we'll just blame you for it, .. so there!"

I know, I know, if YOU were God you would just lovingly let them wipe each other out, .. right?

If not, then what? You guys never answer what you would do if you were God?

[Zzyzx]

.

Well let's see now? If you created a bunch of AI robots in your image, put them on a beautiful planet, with everything they will ever need, and they trash the planet, they kill each other . . . .

If a "creator god" was infinitely wise, omniscient, omnipotent, etc, etc it would be capable or smart enough to create "robots" or "humans" that did not trash the planet and kill each other.

That the proposed bible God supposedly produced humans that are defective (destructive, homicidal) mitigates against it being even moderately intelligent, much less "all-wise."

Supposedly the "God" realized its mistake a few thousand years ago and killed off all of humanity except eight it CHOSE to repopulate the Earth -- and even THAT did not solve the problem of trashing and killing.

Is the "God" just not smart enough to insure that humans are above such behavior? Perhaps an incompetent shouldn't be in charge -- even in the imagination.