The Ultimate Truth

[Lionel20]

In my adult years I've always had this visceral affirmation that other areas in my cerebrum could never fully make sense of. I can't shake it, I've learned to embrace it, this idea, that considers itself much more certain than an idea, seems indigestible by the empirical evidence. Yet I insist it to be true.

This is how I define my faith somewhat. A faith in a Source that has empowered the nature of the universe in a way that I cannot fully comprehend. It's not specifically a faith in the Bible, although I credit the Bible for the awakening thoughts. The authors and organizers of the Bible for the most part, I presume were on the same journey that I'm on, trying to understand this seemingly inexplicable belief that empirical sciences don't appear to have the capabilities to satisfy.

[Lionel20]

How does something exist one way, and then end up another way? What allows for such processes?

It a process called "evolution by natural selection".

This process is most often thought of in complex biological systems and explained at that level of complexity thought things like DNA and Genetics. However, this same process actually gave rise to all that came before biology. It's wasn't "biological evolution" at that time of course, and there was no DNA, but it was simply physical evolution by natural processes.

It's all explained in the sciences of physics, chemistry and ultimately biology and genetics. There simply is no need for any additional mysteries. The "apparent" need for additional magical codes and instructions resides only in the imagination of those who don't fully understand the physics of the situation.

You simply don't need any additional code or instructions beyond that natural laws of physics.

In fact, if you could show that such a thing is absolutely necessary and required, you would then win a Nobel Prize in physics. Because by demonstrating that such a code or set of instructions is absolutely necessary you would have discovered a NEW LAW of physics. One that currently is neither required nor even postulated to exist. There simply is no need to make such a hypothesis because the current physics is already sufficient to explain everything that has thus far been observed.

You would actually need to find something very specific that absolutely requires additional laws of physics, codes, or instructions, in order to bring you hypothesis into the realm of reality.

But obviously right now all you have is speculation based entirely upon ignorance. You are simply arguing that because you can't believe that the natural laws can explain everything that means that you must be RIGHT.

But sorry, that's not a valid claim. That's nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion.

Certainly NOT "The Ultimate Truth", as you have proclaimed in the title of this thread.

Abiogenists are currently studying the physics of abiogenesis. Until that study is complete we can't just arbitrarily claim that some magical code or instructions are required. On the contrary, if that's the case then this will be discovered in the study of abiogenesis. But currently there is no evidence pointing in that direction.

For you to claim that this is an "ultimate truth" requires that you first obtain your Nobel Prize in abiogenesis by showing that additional coding and instructions are indeed required. Good luck with that.

By the way, even if you were able to achieve that you would have only uncovered more physics.

By being able to prove that additional coding and/or instructions are required you would have necessarily opened a door into precisely what that code and/or instructions would need to be and therefore you would have gained an insight into the nature of that code or instructions.

So if you're truly interested in this topic then you should become an abiogenist. They you could actually study the phenomenon instead of just posting random opinions about it and falsely calling those random opinions "The Ultimate Truth".

Yes, I'm aware of the theory of abiogenesis. But what instilled the properties of electromagnetism at the basis of the chemical reactions and molecules that allow for these biological evolutions to occur?

I have no problem with studying and critical thinking, it's an active part of creative process. But it's an exercise in futility if you think you can get out of there being and eternal force and I would argue organizer. My belief is in delicate equilibriums: settlers move into the prairie kill Bison for food, the prairie soon disappears because the Bison fertilized the plant life. Earth's proximity to the sun is ideal for plankton responsible for the majority of oxygen production and nutrients for sea creatures. There's a careful balance of life that points to an organizer, at least in my belief.

What would be the effects on earth life if two planets suddenly disappeared from our solar system? Or a few neighboring galaxies were swallowed by a giant black hole - if they exist. At least to me, it just seems like things are much more complex and orchestrated than most some think.

[Divine Insight]

At least to me, it just seems like things are much more complex and orchestrated than most some think.

I'll be the first to confess that life on Earth does indeed appear to be far too cool (not merely too complex) to have evolved by pure accident (the "accident" being the initial laws of physics, not the process of evolution itself)

Unlike you I can see our solar system evolving precisely the way it is by pure random chance (given the guiding laws of physics). If there exist any mystery of orchestration it lies within the laws of physics themselves, and not in any observations concerning how the universe has subsequently evolved according to those basic laws.

So in that sense, I'm partially with you in a sense of "awe", but I do not stand in awe for the same reasons you apparently do.

Moreover, nothing you have stated here points to Hebrew mythology being true. On the contrary I would argue precisely the opposite. The God portrayed in Hebrew mythology would not be anywhere near intelligent enough to have designed a universe that could evolve into sentient living beings. On the contrary the God portrayed in the Bible doesn't' even have the intelligence or maturity of a retarded high-school drop out who has no sense of morality or responsibility. (not to imply that all high-school drop outs are retarded).

Hebrew mythology is an insult to the very concept of "God".

So going from, "Wow! The universe is absolutely amazing!", to "Therefore the ancient Hebrew barbarians must have God nailed", makes no sense.

Also, if you're going to suggest an actual intervening God who actually pokes his fingers into the mix and "Designs" humans specifically, then IMHO, he is an absolutely horrible designer.

Humans as an evolved species are beyond amazing.

Humans as an intentionally designed species are a testament to the stupidity of the designer.

~~~~

At best I can agree with you on some points. Our universe and exist may indeed have an underlying mystical origin. And on that note I support a belief in things like Taoism, or Buddhism at least as being reasonably plausible. (certainly not as any obvious apparent ultimate truth)

But the idea that we can point to the universe as being an indication that there exists an idiot designer/creator who not only purposefully designed humans to be so pathetic, but he also created a master plan that included having his very own corrupt Chief Priests call for the brutal beating and crucifixion of his son to hang over the heads of his poorly designed humans as a threat that if they fail to accept this immoral act of scapegoating on their behalf he will be extremely mean and hateful toward them.

I'm sorry, but that seems to be the absolute anti-thesis of the idea that we should marvel at how well the universe is "designed".

You're basically suggesting that because the universe appears to potentially have been intelligently designed in some aspects, we should then jump to the conclusion that we were created by a totally immoral idiot described by a bunch of clearly male-chauvinistic barbaric ignorant pigs who lived thousands of years ago and wrote down the most inconsistent and utterly absurd superstitious fables.

I just don't see the logical reasoning in that kind of conclusion-jumping.

[Lionel20]

Moreover, nothing you have stated here points to Hebrew mythology being true. On the contrary I would argue precisely the opposite. The God portrayed in Hebrew mythology would not be anywhere near intelligent enough to have designed a universe that could evolve into sentient living beings. On the contrary the God portrayed in the Bible doesn't' even have the intelligence or maturity of a retarded high-school drop out who has no sense of morality or responsibility. (not to imply that all high-school drop outs are retarded).

Hebrew mythology is an insult to the very concept of "God".

So going from, "Wow! The universe is absolutely amazing!", to "Therefore the ancient Hebrew barbarians must have God nailed", makes no sense.

The ancient Hebrew scribes and zealots were restricted by their world view. Their interpretations and perceptions of God were limited by it. When I read the Bible, I do so understanding that it's usefulness is in being a compass that points us towards establishing a relationship with God. The compass is not the destination (where many churches are wrong IMO), it's an instrument to get me to my destination - which is a true relationship with the Creator.

[Zzyzx]

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But what instilled the properties of electromagnetism at the basis of the chemical reactions and molecules that allow for these biological evolutions to occur?

No one knows. Many speculate.

I do not pretend to know what I do not know. Do you?

I have no problem with studying and critical thinking, it's an active part of creative process.

We are on the same page with that – which could lead to some interesting debates. Many seem to believe what they are told without studying the matter or thinking critically / analytically about whether claims and stories (ancient or modern) are truthful and accurate.

But it's an exercise in futility if you think you can get out of there being and eternal force and I would argue organizer. My belief is in delicate equilibriums: settlers move into the prairie kill Bison for food, the prairie soon disappears because the Bison fertilized the plant life. Earth's proximity to the sun is ideal for plankton responsible for the majority of oxygen production and nutrients for sea creatures. There's a careful balance of life that points to an organizer, at least in my belief.

I fully agree that life forms tend to be in balance with their environment – long-term.

However, in my view there is no evidence that a "creator" is required – any more than a "creator" was required in the bison / prairie example you cited. Those are natural processes that can be understood through study and critical / analytical thinking – no invisible gods or spirits required.

What would be the effects on earth life if two planets suddenly disappeared from our solar system?

That might be an interesting topic of discussion for astrophysicists. Does it somehow relate to discussion of "gods?"

Or a few neighboring galaxies were swallowed by a giant black hole - if they exist.

Again, a matter for astronomers and astrophysicists. Apologists who know little about such things often seem inclined to delve into extremely specialized and demanding fields of study in a vain attempt to defend supernatural beliefs.

Canis Major Dwarf galaxy is 42,000 light years from the center of the Milky Way and the next closest Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy is 75,000 light years away (according to astronomers). If either or both had been "swallowed by a giant black hole" twenty-five thousand years ago occupants of Earth would not know about it or be affected for tens of thousands of years (unless effects travel beyond light speed).

At least to me, it just seems like things are much more complex and orchestrated than most some think.

I agree that many things in nature / the universe are extremely complex and are very incompletely known or understood by humans (and may well be beyond human comprehension).

It seems as though there is an inverse relationship between what people know about the real world they inhabit and their "need" to speculate and/or make up stories about imagined supernatural entities to "explain" what they do not understand (or to believe the tales of others doing exactly the same thing).