The paradox many of us are faced with

[OnceConvinced]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation…

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

How do we resolve this paradox?

And before someone suggests prayer, we have the same problem there. The bible seems to us to be full of nonsense, lies and fantasies. For many of us we just don't believe the God of this bible to be real, so why would we pray to something we don't believe in? We must first believe in God to pray to him and then we must first believe the bible about what it says about God. Same vicious circle yet again.

Also please don't try to say I can "Choose to believe", because I know I can't. My mind is not that fickle. I can't choose to believe in the bible God any more than I can choose to believe there are fairies in my garden or boogyman hiding in my closet.

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 130 by GISMYS]

Exactly that. People go onto debate forums for the purpose of debating.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 130:

ROFL! So many say they don't believe and they post on christian debate boards just to tell the world! lol! SURE!!! SURE!!!

I wouldn't bother if it weren't for so many Christians trying to legislate their ancient beliefs into law.

How 'bout you tell the Christians to stop it with the keeping gay folks from getting married, telling when the liquor stores can open, and how atheists do have a right to hold public office, and I'll start to telling the atheists how it is, you done put a stop to such Christian tomfoolery?

[otseng]

[Replying to post 121 by Zzyzx]
Little sin loving man trys to hope and pretend that God is not real because they fear their final judgmet day. What about you?

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[GISMYS]

[Replying to post 133 by otseng]

I STAND BEHIND MY POSTS 1000% “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven [c]from [d]people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 [[e]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one [f]proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of [g]hell as yourselves.

[Zzyzx]

.

[Replying to post 133 by otseng]

I STAND BEHIND MY POSTS 1000%

Although the poster may not understand (or be around long enough to read this), standing behind one's posts here means substantiating any claims of truth with credible citations -- knowing that Forum Rules and Guidelines do not allow use of the bible to prove itself (or anything else) true.

Otseng created and maintains this excellent debate site with extremely level playing field. No point of view is given favorable treatment. The moderating team is composed of eight members equally divided between Theists and Non-Theists. Decisions (such as banning) are by combined action after repeated warnings for rule infractions.

There are many places that welcome preaching and "bible thumping" -- a church on every corner, Christians only websites, even sub-forums here dedicated to religions (where non-religious members cannot post). Those who cannot tolerate (civilly and respectfully) having their beliefs challenged may be more comfortable in such environments.

[GISMYS]

[Replying to post 135 by Zzyzx]

PLAYING PHARISEE GAMES HAS A HIGH PRICE,TIME IS SHORT AND THERE IS NO TIME FOR PHARISEE GAMES, PEOPLE DROP BY THESE "christian" MESSAGE BOARDS SEEKING TRUTH=GOD AND WHAT ARE THEY SEEING HERE??????

[redo]

When I make a little dry humor joke like that I usually don’t put the smiley face, and a lot of times people get offended.

Humor is difficult to put across well in this venue (emoticons don't help much) – and is usually inappropriate in serious debate.

You are right if you are thinking that the kind of humor I was talking about was just making fun of your opinion, however that isn’t what I was meaning with my humor.
Regardless whether or not we agree it doesn’t have to mean that we can’t be friendly if we disagree. I’ll try to keep a serious face, but really sometimes I have to laugh when something strikes me as funny.

It matters a lot to me that it takes as much faith to believe in science as it does to believe in God.

It takes no "faith" to go with what works in the real world – and there is no need to "believe in science." We all accept the benefits provided by science (modern medicine, transportation, food production and preservation, communication, etc) without any need for "belief."
A great advantage of science (systematic study of nature) is that rather than requiring belief it encourages "if in doubt, check it out" (verify based on evidence). The opposite is characteristic of religions – which require "belief without evidence" and discourage challenge of "scriptures" and dogma.

I have to concede that I was wrong with my statement that it requires you to have faith to believe in science. You are right, you just accept the answers you get from science blindly without even having to think about it.
Actually that is exactly what happens with most people in the many religions we see in the world. That is our problem, more people need to care enough to check out whether what they believe is true or not. Whatever you decide is fine with me. However believing in a creator makes the most sense for me when it comes to finding answers for those unanswerable questions.

Those nagging questions that can’t be answered are never forgotten by me.

Unanswered questions of importance should not be forgotten, but should be studied by anyone interested to develop understandings that work in the real world we inhabit.

Unanswered questions are a good reason that we shouldn't throw out the possibility that creation had help becoming the complex thing we see. All questions should be investigated, and our minds should be open to any direction the answers lead us.
Investigation a murder wouldn't be very successful in a lot of cases if family members were never looked at and investigated.
When you rule out the possibility that creation became the wonder that it is by design you close the door to anything that leads in that direction.

It doesn’t matter what the question, I can make sense of it if there is a creator involved.

That has been the function of gods and religion for thousands of years – provide "answers" for the unknown. Until humans learned the causes of disease they proposed "Goddidit" – and applied the same to "explaining" the occurrence of storms, droughts, floods, volcanoes, etc.
Thus, gods served a useful purpose

I am lucky that I am living in a time when I have the opportunity to see all the advances of science. There was a time not too far in the past when people didn’t realize the importance of washing hands in an operating room, but medical science has brought us out of the dark ages and countless thousands of lives have been saved.
That is just fact but it still doesn’t take away from the fact that the miracle of the existence of the human body needs to be understood, and science can only guess how it happened.
Science doesn't understand life, and can’t even create a tiny living bug.
God plays a huge role for me, and my belief that creation had help coming into existence is just as justifiable as you believing that evolution brought it all about.

The fact that psychics, magic, ghosts, mediums, faith healers and all other scams may be exposed doesn’t cause me to forget the questions that can’t be answered by science.

Can it be demonstrated that any of the tens of thousands of religions are anything more than scams?

Yes I think the evidence indicates that most of the millions of people who believe in those religions are genuine believers, and their idea about how we all got here came from the evidence they have found in their world.
Looking at some of the things other people believe sometimes causes me to cringe, but the fact that they are searching for answers says something to me.
I have come up with my own answers too, just as you have. The things you believe are understandable to me because I can see the problem with religion. Now can you understand me being able to believe a creator is responsible for the universe and everything in it?

I have lived long enough that I don’t put too much trust in any person. I sure don’t set them up like gods thinking mankind can give me all the answers I need.

Everything people "know" about gods they learned from other people (or made up themselves – often called "revelations" or dreams or personal mental episodes.

I don’t agree with that. It doesn't matter where you find people living in the world they have their own ideas about God. Those people saw something in nature that made them believe that a creator has to exist.
We are living in a society who has put their trust in education, and many think it isn't cool to consider that a creator could actually exist.
Regardless of the evidence the universe reveals about the order that is involved in keeping it all together, some people won’t consider anything but random chance as the cause.

[Zzyzx]

.
So long Gismys, may you find a place that welcomes preaching and pontificating.

[Replying to post 135 by Zzyzx]

Playing pharisee games has a high price,time is short and there is no time for pharisee games,

Christians have been making such false "end of the world" predictions for 2000 years – since Jesus was wrong with his prediction.

That the weekly (it seems) end of the Earth prediction is invariably wrong evidently does not register on or matter to the prognosticators. Perhaps being wrong is a way of life?

People drop by these "christian" message boards seeking truth=god and what are they seeing here??????

When people visit this site they see debate, not monologues praising Christianity or its favorite gods and ghosts. Hundreds visit (see site statistics) and perhaps conclude that theology, personal opinion, and emotion do not fare well in debate against reasoning based in the real world.

Visitors / readers may see emotional outbursts in defense of personal religious beliefs – and occasional martyrdom (symbolic "dying for one's faith).

One of the reasons I debate here is to present to readers views that are contrary to religious propaganda that permeates our society – and often seeks to influence laws that apply to Non-Believers as well as Believers – such as laws that apply to marriage, abortion, divorce, Sundays and holidays, etc.

I also choose to dispute religionist attempts to claim moral high ground or any other form of superiority – and often cite statistics that demonstrate that claimed religious affiliation does not curtail incarceration, divorce, abortion by Christians.

[redo]

When I make a little dry humor joke like that I usually don’t put the smiley face, and a lot of times people get offended.

Humor is difficult to put across well in this venue (emoticons don't help much) – and is usually inappropriate in serious debate.

You are right if you are thinking that the kind of humor I was talking about was just making fun of your opinion, however that isn’t what I was meaning with my humor.
Regardless whether or not we agree it doesn’t have to mean that we can’t be friendly if we disagree. I’ll try to keep a serious face, but really sometimes I have to laugh when something strikes me as funny.

It matters a lot to me that it takes as much faith to believe in science as it does to believe in God.

It takes no "faith" to go with what works in the real world – and there is no need to "believe in science." We all accept the benefits provided by science (modern medicine, transportation, food production and preservation, communication, etc) without any need for "belief."
A great advantage of science (systematic study of nature) is that rather than requiring belief it encourages "if in doubt, check it out" (verify based on evidence). The opposite is characteristic of religions – which require "belief without evidence" and discourage challenge of "scriptures" and dogma.

I have to concede that I was wrong with my statement that it requires you to have faith to believe in science. You are right, you just accept the answers you get from science blindly without even having to think about it.
Actually that is exactly what happens with most people in the many religions we see in the world. That is our problem, more people need to care enough to check out whether what they believe is true or not. Whatever you decide is fine with me. However believing in a creator makes the most sense for me when it comes to finding answers for those unanswerable questions.

Those nagging questions that can’t be answered are never forgotten by me.

Unanswered questions of importance should not be forgotten, but should be studied by anyone interested to develop understandings that work in the real world we inhabit.

Unanswered questions are a good reason that we shouldn't throw out the possibility that creation had help becoming the complex thing we see. All questions should be investigated, and our minds should be open to any direction the answers lead us.
Investigation a murder wouldn't be very successful in a lot of cases if family members were never looked at and investigated.
When you rule out the possibility that creation became the wonder that it is by design you close the door to anything that leads in that direction.

It doesn’t matter what the question, I can make sense of it if there is a creator involved.

That has been the function of gods and religion for thousands of years – provide "answers" for the unknown. Until humans learned the causes of disease they proposed "Goddidit" – and applied the same to "explaining" the occurrence of storms, droughts, floods, volcanoes, etc.
Thus, gods served a useful purpose

I am lucky that I am living in a time when I have the opportunity to see all the advances of science. There was a time not too far in the past when people didn’t realize the importance of washing hands in an operating room, but medical science has brought us out of the dark ages and countless thousands of lives have been saved.
That is just fact but it still doesn’t take away from the fact that the miracle of the existence of the human body needs to be understood, and science can only guess how it happened.
Science doesn't understand life, and can’t even create a tiny living bug.
God plays a huge role for me, and my belief that creation had help coming into existence is just as justifiable as you believing that evolution brought it all about.

The fact that psychics, magic, ghosts, mediums, faith healers and all other scams may be exposed doesn’t cause me to forget the questions that can’t be answered by science.

Can it be demonstrated that any of the tens of thousands of religions are anything more than scams?

Yes I think the evidence indicates that most of the millions of people who believe in those religions are genuine believers, and their idea about how we all got here came from the evidence they have found in their world.
Looking at some of the things other people believe sometimes causes me to cringe, but the fact that they are searching for answers says something to me.
I have come up with my own answers too, just as you have. The things you believe are understandable to me because I can see the problem with religion. Now can you understand me being able to believe a creator is responsible for the universe and everything in it?

I have lived long enough that I don’t put too much trust in any person. I sure don’t set them up like gods thinking mankind can give me all the answers I need.

Everything people "know" about gods they learned from other people (or made up themselves – often called "revelations" or dreams or personal mental episodes.

I don’t agree with that. It doesn't matter where you find people living in the world they have their own ideas about God. Those people saw something in nature that made them believe that a creator has to exist.
We are living in a society who has put their trust in education, and many think it isn't cool to consider that a creator could actually exist.
Regardless of the evidence the universe reveals about the order that is involved in keeping it all together, some people won’t consider anything but random chance as the cause.[/quote]

[Zzyzx]

.

Regardless whether or not we agree it doesn’t have to mean that we can’t be friendly if we disagree.

Several of my best "Forum Friends" (and some real world friends) are Theists. We often disagree in a friendly, civil, respectful manner (with or without attempted humor).

I’ll try to keep a serious face, but really sometimes I have to laugh when something strikes me as funny.

I at least chuckle at some things presented in threads as though they were to be taken seriously. Not long ago someone demanded proof that the Earth rotates.

I have to concede that I was wrong with my statement that it requires you to have faith to believe in science. You are right, you just accept the answers you get from science blindly without even having to think about it.

Science (systematic study of nature) does NOT ask or expect blind acceptance – but repeatedly says "check it out." Challenge of present ideas is the primary means of advancing knowledge. As new and/or more accurate information becomes available, understanding and knowledge increase.

Actually that is exactly what happens with most people in the many religions we see in the world.

I do not disagree

That is our problem, more people need to care enough to check out whether what they believe is true or not.

How, exactly, does one check out whether ancient tales and testimonials are true or not?

Whatever you decide is fine with me. However believing in a creator makes the most sense for me when it comes to finding answers for those unanswerable questions.

Some "unanswerable questions" that trouble Creationists are of no importance in my life – such as how the universe began or how life on Earth originated.

The people who are concerned about such things tend to be either advanced scientists studying astrophysics / astronomy / biology OR Theists who do not study such fields but who presume to KNOW the answers after reading ancient texts, listening to sermons, or having personal emotional / mental episodes.

Those nagging questions that can’t be answered are never forgotten by me.

Unanswered questions of importance should not be forgotten, but should be studied by anyone interested to develop understandings that work in the real world we inhabit.

Unanswered questions are a good reason that we shouldn't throw out the possibility that creation had help becoming the complex thing we see.

Agree, we should not throw out the possibility of a creator – but should examine all evidence, verify its truth and accuracy, and reach sound conclusions.

What, exactly, is the evidence that indicates a creator – verifiable evidence, not unverifiable tales, testimonials, conjectures, suppositions?

All questions should be investigated, and our minds should be open to any direction the answers lead us.

Agreed – and we should take care to determine that our answers are correct – and not just products of human imagination.

When we reach a point that we do not know answers, we should be honest and forthright enough to say "I don't know" rather than make up or accept fanciful "explanations" that cannot be shown to be truthful and accurate.

When you rule out the possibility that creation became the wonder that it is by design you close the door to anything that leads in that direction.

The door is wide open to anyone who can demonstrate that a creator is involved. Start any time.

It doesn’t matter what the question, I can make sense of it if there is a creator involved.

That has been the function of gods and religion for thousands of years – provide "answers" for the unknown. Until humans learned the causes of disease they proposed "Goddidit" – and applied the same to "explaining" the occurrence of storms, droughts, floods, volcanoes, etc.
Thus, gods served a useful purpose

I am lucky that I am living in a time when I have the opportunity to see all the advances of science. There was a time not too far in the past when people didn’t realize the importance of washing hands in an operating room, but medical science has brought us out of the dark ages and countless thousands of lives have been saved.

Yes, humans eventually learned that diseases are caused by microorganisms – and not demons. Sanitation works – casting out demons doesn't work.

That is just fact but it still doesn’t take away from the fact that the miracle of the existence of the human body needs to be understood, and science can only guess how it happened.

The human body is intensively studied by biology and medical fields. How it developed is studied by anthropology.

Questions remain and knowledge can be advanced by anyone interested, qualified and motivated. Are there questions you would like to work on?

Science doesn't understand life, and can’t even create a tiny living bug.

Those who have studied biology understand quite a bit about life. If there are gaps in knowledge, feel free to contribute.

God plays a huge role for me, and my belief that creation had help coming into existence is just as justifiable as you believing that evolution brought it all about.

"God is the answer" for many people – often different answers and/or different gods.

Evolution is defined (by people in the field) as "genetic change through generations." Its occurrence is demonstrated every time a microbe becomes antibiotic resistant. The origin of life is a different subject.

Creationists typically dispute that evolution occurs (even though it is demonstrated to occur) after studying theology and scriptures (ancient writings and beliefs) and NOT studying the field of genetics, which involves evolution. AND, Creationists tend to confuse evolution with origin of life – two separate fields (of which they typically know little or nothing).

The fact that psychics, magic, ghosts, mediums, faith healers and all other scams may be exposed doesn’t cause me to forget the questions that can’t be answered by science.

Can it be demonstrated that any of the tens of thousands of religions are anything more than scams?

Yes I think the evidence indicates that most of the millions of people who believe in those religions are genuine believers, and their idea about how we all got here came from the evidence they have found in their world.

Since there are many theological "how we got here" stories (many of which contradict each other), which of them, if any, can be shown to be truthful and accurate?

Looking at some of the things other people believe sometimes causes me to cringe, but the fact that they are searching for answers says something to me.

Searching for answers seems like a reasonable thing to do. Confining one's search to ancient "wisdom" and tales does not seem wise. Many disagree.

I have come up with my own answers too, just as you have. The things you believe are understandable to me because I can see the problem with religion. Now can you understand me being able to believe a creator is responsible for the universe and everything in it?

I do not pretend to understand the thinking or beliefs of others and am no longer surprised to encounter fanciful beliefs that contradict what is known of the real world. That people believe such things is their business, not mine – provided they do not attempt to push those beliefs on me (or others) or to pass laws inflicting their opinions on others.

When believers claim to KNOW about supernatural entities and events I often challenge them to demonstrate the truth and accuracy of their claims. So far the "evidence" offered consists of testimonials, opinions and conjectures – nothing that cannot be produced by human imagination and fantasy.

I have lived long enough that I don’t put too much trust in any person. I sure don’t set them up like gods thinking mankind can give me all the answers I need.

Everything people "know" about gods they learned from other people (or made up themselves – often called "revelations" or dreams or personal mental episodes.

I don’t agree with that.

Where can anyone learn about gods EXCEPT from others (written or oral) or from their own mind? The only alternative that occurs to me is to have a personal, physical encounter with a god. "Hearing voices" is not an alternative to "in their own mind."

It doesn't matter where you find people living in the world they have their own ideas about God. Those people saw something in nature that made them believe that a creator has to exist.

Yes, and people "see" faces in clouds or on the moon, or "see" Jesus or Elvis in a piece of toast. So what?

We are living in a society who has put their trust in education,

Some in society value education, many confuse schooling with education but they are not synonymous. Others reject education and/or knowledge and prefer to run on emotion, rumor, hearsay, etc.

and many think it isn't cool to consider that a creator could actually exist.

Sure, ANY of the thousands of proposed "gods" could be a "creator." Let's examine the evidence to decide which one, if any, is involved.

Regardless of the evidence the universe reveals about the order that is involved in keeping it all together, some people won’t consider anything but random chance as the cause.

Few dispute that the universe has a certain "order." Some claim to know that the order stems from a favorite creator god. Others look for answers through study of the universe itself (much to the chagrin of many religionists).