"I am not a Theist & not religious but I believe in

[Zzyzx]

.
Does the following seem self-contradictory?

From ONE post in a current thread –

God speaks through ALL His creation including us men, and just because we deny to hear Him (because of sin) doesn't mean it is lost.

Of course I don't expect you to believe in God just because I do, and that I believe it was His revelation

had very little education, and struggle to express myself, especially with the things God has revealed to me.

This is exactly why God used His Prophets and even His Son to personally talk to us.

I am here to 'reveal by Undeniable Scientific Evidence' our Creator.

Infinity, the origin of the universe, the beginning of life" may be beyond your understanding, or the refusal thereof, but is definitely not mine.

AND

I am not religious, how can I explain this to you?

I will not become a religious theist/atheist just to please you.

I'm serious my friend, since I have told you at least 500 times in debates that I am not a Theist, yet you still keep referring to me as a Theist.

Note: Theism is defined as: Belief in the existence of a god or gods

Religion is difficult to define but generally involves some belief in a supernatural entity that may (or may not) influence human affairs – or perhaps an afterlife


Question for debate: If one believes in God can they NOT be a Theist and NOT be religious?

[arian]

.

I understand, I have tried just about every angle, so I figure when all else fails, grab a snickers, ..

One angle that you haven't tried is to present actual, verifiable evidence to substantiate your claims and stories.

You mean like the red-shift that will eventually create the universe, or lizard fossils evolving into bird fossils? Not everybody is that fortunate, most people have to learn to accept history as verifiable evidence as to things like this guy named Abraham Lincoln who was supposedly one of our Presidents who got shot in the head!?
The best evidence I have seen of that was a Flintstones-style photograph/drawing, which I'm sure you wouldn't put that in your 'evidence list', right Z?

Unless you can accept stories like 'Noah's flood' as evidence which later you could compare other stories to?
Now I do know that million year old Cave-paintings of stick figures are 'verifiable' to other cave paintings, which constitute 'evidence' for the evolution theory, .. err I mean evolutionary-fact!? But stories of a world wide flood, .. I mean come on, right Z? Or how about this man we always hear about who claimed he was a Jew, and tried to convince the Jews He was the Son of God? Even the Jews don't believe that, am I right or am I right? A video of Him coming down from Heaven, Mary getting pregnant as a virgin with clinical tests, x-rays, MRI's done before and after, would be nice, but heck, .. even that can be easily faked, especially today.
People put their life on fake x-rays that show they have cancer, and start that deadly radiation therapy ASAP!

That might work when opinions, testimonials, conjectures and wild speculation have not.

Remember the "demons are real" tale? That was a good one, but like so many supernatural or paranormal stories and claims, it was not supported at all aside from some personal opinions and testimonials (and more unlikely tales).

You know Z, you have something there. I just realized that after being on this earth for 58 years, unless you meet me in person, the only 'verifiable evidence' of my existence are opinions, testimonials, conjectures and wild speculations. Anyone could make a Passport, driver license and a birth certificate, then claim that his parents are dead, so these fake ID's "is all I got, .. take it or leave it!?"

Many of us are not inclined to accept "take my word for it" regarding matters of significance or importance. This "skepticism" seems to mystify, befuddle and confuse those who are inclined to base their life or views on what they are told about or what they have come to believe about invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities and events.

And you know I agree with you on that as strongly as anyone else here. No one, .. and I mean NO ONE should accept the old "take my word for it" stunt, especially when they claim to swear on a stack of Bibles that "what I tell you is truth!" especially when it comes to used car salesman and those Big-bang Evolutionary people who claim that they are scientists, who claim they have observed and documented one species of fossils, evolve into another species of fossils. Now I admit that the documentation seems real enough, .. but the claim, .. hmm, makes one wonder, .. well OK, makes me wonder anyways even if half the world accepts it.

So how do you suggest we verify anything in past history other than opinions, testimonials, conjectures and wild speculation? And oh yea, don't forget those 'scientific assumptions', .. those are the really doosey ones which influenced tens of thousands of books, hundreds of movies and even text book photos of 'evolving apes' (psst, .. I'm not sure, .. but I think some of those prehistoric pictures were 'photo-shopped'! But that's just my opinion of course, I haven't compiled any real evidence against it yet?)

And wait, what makes you think I base my life and views on what I'm told about or what I have come to believe about invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities and events? I'm sorry sir, but I base my life and views on what I see, hear and witnessed over the past 58 years of my life, and what I witness in the present, in the here and now by observing the world around me as in the definition of science.
In my life I have seen people change characters right before my eyes, from a seemingly loving, caring person to what I can compare to is a demonically possessed being who can do, and did just about any evil imaginable, even to their own innocent child.

Now yea, yea, .. I know, .. but I didn't have a camera at the time, and most witnesses are most likely dead by now, but what can I say, it's part of my history, and I documented some. Any suggestions as to what we could do to preserve accurate history besides testimonial, some drawings, photos and videos if possible, I'm all ears, tell me. But as i said, even those could be faked!?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 56 by arian]

Fact, as in scientific fact is better than fiction.

Uhmmm no you have not demonstrated this in any meaningful way. It is not a scientific fact that there is a creator god or that the supernatural is even a thing.

religion
[ri-lij-uh n]
Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs




You believe that god is the creator of the universe right?

You believe that your god is an entity beyond the bounds of human capacity right?

Do you pray?

Do you follow a moral code derived from this god or scriptures pertaining to this god?


Pretty sure for all intents and purpose you are religious unless somehow in the dimension you exist in this definition does not exist.

[Zzyzx]

.

One angle that you haven't tried is to present actual, verifiable evidence to substantiate your claims and stories.

You mean like the red-shift that will eventually create the universe,

Feel free to use red-shift to prove that demons exist (or to prove that any of your claims and stories are more than imagination).

Not everybody is that fortunate, most people have to learn to accept history as verifiable evidence as to things like this guy named Abraham Lincoln who was supposedly one of our Presidents who got shot in the head!?
The best evidence I have seen of that was a Flintstones-style photograph/drawing, which I'm sure you wouldn't put that in your 'evidence list', right Z?

Interested and capable people can find a bit more evidence regarding Lincoln's assassination than Flintstones-style. Others evidently cannot.

Unless you can accept stories like 'Noah's flood' as evidence which later you could compare other stories to?

Exactly what evidence indicates that the Earth was flooded Noah-style "to the tops of mountains?" To what other flood tales should / might it be compared? Real events, or fables?

People put their life on fake x-rays that show they have cancer, and start that deadly radiation therapy ASAP!

To what "fake X-rays" do you refer? How are X-rays faked? What is the process? When and where does it happen?

That might work when opinions, testimonials, conjectures and wild speculation have not.

Remember the "demons are real" tale? That was a good one, but like so many supernatural or paranormal stories and claims, it was not supported at all aside from some personal opinions and testimonials (and more unlikely tales).

You know Z, you have something there. I just realized that after being on this earth for 58 years, unless you meet me in person, the only 'verifiable evidence' of my existence are opinions, testimonials, conjectures and wild speculations. Anyone could make a Passport, driver license and a birth certificate, then claim that his parents are dead, so these fake ID's "is all I got, .. take it or leave it!?"

I choose to leave it. Has anyone accepted the tale as truthful and as proof that demons exist? It does not seem to have convinced anyone here.

Many of us are not inclined to accept "take my word for it" regarding matters of significance or importance. This "skepticism" seems to mystify, befuddle and confuse those who are inclined to base their life or views on what they are told about or what they have come to believe about invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities and events.

And you know I agree with you on that as strongly as anyone else here. No one, .. and I mean NO ONE should accept the old "take my word for it" stunt,

Thank you. I do not take your word that demons exist and/or that you have experienced such things. I have no way of knowing if you even think the tale is true.

[arian]

[Replying to post 56 by arian]

Fact, as in scientific fact is better than fiction.

Uhmmm no you have not demonstrated this in any meaningful way. It is not a scientific fact that there is a creator god or that the supernatural is even a thing.

religion
[ri-lij-uh n]
Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs

As I said now countless times, and pointed the evidence of my claims in original definitions, analogies, examples, and history, so let me put it yet another way; "Religions have kidnapped and raped the definition of words" as in;

gay
adjective
adjective: gay; comparative adjective: gayer; superlative adjective: gayest
1. (of a person, especially a man) homosexual.
"that friend of yours, is he gay?"
synonyms: homosexual, lesbian; informalqueer
"gay men and women"
•relating to or used by homosexuals.
"feminist, black, and gay perspectives"

2. lighthearted and carefree.
"Nan had a gay disposition and a very pretty face"
•brightly colored; showy; brilliant.
"a gay profusion of purple and pink sweet peas"
3. informaloffensive
foolish, stupid, or unimpressive.
"making students wait for the light is kind of a gay rule"
noun: gay; plural noun: gays
1. a homosexual, especially a man.

I believe they still left happy and brightly colored in there somewhere, .. for now anyways.

As for your definition of religion: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe" I LOVE IT! Finally they admitted what I have been saying all along, that the Big-bang Evolution story is a religious one, not scientific. So I guess not all definitions are being perverted, some actually reveal the truth, .. only somehow I feel this was NOT intentional, more like a slip of the tongue, lol.

You believe that god is the creator of the universe right?

Yes, .. because of evidence, not because some religion that creates god/gods told me so.

You believe that your god is an entity beyond the bounds of human capacity right?

See, .. this is another thing I have explained a bunch of times, but you seem to be way overwhelmed by religions and their doctrines to be able to understand. Our mind is of and 'is God', that our mind is a bit of His Spirit, so how could it be beyond our capacity to know God in whose very image/likeness we were created?

And I also explained many times is that, the ONLY thing that can cloud the spirit/mind of man from not being able to understand God is, .. come on I said this many times before, ... that's right, religion and their religious doctrines which requires blind-faith to stay in, otherwise you would see the foolishness of it.

So again, .. religion does what? No, it does not reveal God our Creator, it actually keeps us from seeing and understanding God our Creator.

This is why talking about religion at work is so discouraged, because it pits one religion and their god/gods against another, especially the plethora of Christian religions. This proves that each denomination is actually a separate religion with individual doctrines.
If people actually know God as I do, as He is revealed in nature and the Bible by Gods Holy Spirit/Mind to our spirit/mind, our hearts would never allow our minds to live separately, or be content in 'agreeing to disagree'; "Oh, so your Baptist, well I'm a Catholic, .. cool, as long as you believe in god, go to church and pay your tithes!"

Do you pray?

Yes, with my spirit/mind to our Creator who is Spirit/Mind, and NOT to some fake made up god/gods created by religions. I honestly wish you could see this, .. I even actually pray with my spirit/mind to God (Mind/Spirit I Am Who I Am) that He would clear the smoke/fog of all those religions and their doctrines from your mind long enough for you to connect, .. at least a tiny glance, so you could see He is there so you can kick-start your belief in the truth. I am hoping and praying so you could realize that you (generic you, .. I mean we all) are driving at breakneck speeds in heavy fog, or as the Bible explains; "in the darkness" without the lights on (not knowing the truth)

Do you follow a moral code derived from this god or scriptures pertaining to this god?

Yes, but it's not some religious 'moral-code', but if it's the truth, and following the truth because it's logical which can get habit forming. Another words I am not following religion and its doctrine, I follow good logical commands that happens to be in the Bible religiously. Big difference.
"I have the mind of Christ", who is one mind with God. So my will is His will, and I follow this because it is logical; "Love one another as I have loved you". Like when I say "I love you guys", or specifically that I love you DanieltheDragon (and the rest of you here), it's because I learned from experience that God loves me, not because some religion happened to use some of the Biblical teaching tells me to.

So when I say this, it's not because some religion I belong to requires it (though many religions teach it) .. but because it's a rational thing to do.
I have known quite a few non-religious, non-god/gods worshiping people who go out and help the poor, they visit the sick, the widows and the orphans because they want to, because they feel it's the right thing to do. They know that the Bible teaches this also, but that's not why they do it.

But because the only gods that they (non-believers) are bombarded with are the made-up religious gods, they really don't understand that what drives their mind to do good rather than evil, is the very Being that drives me; HE, .. the Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind "I Am Who I Am" in whose image we are created.

Pretty sure for all intents and purpose you are religious unless somehow in the dimension you exist in this definition does not exist.

If I love you, or love others and help those who ask me for help and I do this religiously, it's NOT because some religion tells me to do it, another words, religion isn't my driving force, but love is.

The perfect example of this is the Christian Religion that uses Christ's teaching from the Bible to "Love one another, .. love your enemies, .. do good to them that hate you and persecute you, .." yet they go out in the name of their god and his Jesus and kill, maim, torture, conquer those who they should be helping, completely blinded to their contradicting actions, and this is because their religion doesn't really know God; He who Is, the Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind I Am Who I Am, but follow their own god/gods of their religion.

Knowing God Through Love

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

Not; "beloved let us love one another because your religion requires you to! And if you don't then you disobey your religion"

Also don't forget that I could play tennis every day starting at 6 AM for one hour, and do this religiously for the next 20 years, and never once go to church, believe in or worship any god/gods. Unless you believe that my religious tennis habit can be considered believing and worshiping god/gods as the new definitions of the word religion suggest?

Playing tennis;
1. Belief and worship of god/gods

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 63 by arian]

I never said you did anything or believed in anything because of religion. I am merely pointing out you are religious in terms of the English language.

Whether its a religion of your own devising or anothers it is still a religion. You might not share the exact same religious beliefs of others but you have still devised your own religion. What compels you is another matter altogether.

Theism

belief in the existence of a god or gods

do you believe in god or gods?

if yes then you are a theist.


There is no way around these words. If you don't like the label fine I understand that it carries a certain baggage to it. Yet regardless of whether its your own religion or someone else's

You still believe in the god as described in the bible

You still pray in some manner as relevant to yourself.

See, .. this is another thing I have explained a bunch of times, but you seem to be way overwhelmed by religions and their doctrines to be able to understand. Our mind is of and 'is God', that our mind is a bit of His Spirit, so how could it be beyond our capacity to know God in whose very image/likeness we were created?

Did I say capacity to know? I am referring to beyond human ability.

Can you create a universe?

Can you make a star?

Can you make a super massive black hole?

Can you make a Quasar?

Do you believe your god can do these things?



You claim not to be religious You claim not to be a theist yet you follow the very definition of the word to the T. Unless you can prove that you don't worship a god that you don't believe in a god that you don't pray and that you don't have a moral structure derived from said God or scriptures pertaining to this god then you won't convince me or anyone else in the universe that you are either not a theist or not religious.

As for your definition of religion: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe" I LOVE IT! Finally they admitted what I have been saying all along, that the Big-bang Evolution story is a religious one, not scientific. So I guess not all definitions are being perverted, some actually reveal the truth, .. only somehow I feel this was NOT intentional, more like a slip of the tongue, lol.

No it was intentional the english language is pretty flexible for example I am religious about pizza or I am religious about understanding the human mind.
What you are engaging here though is a false equivalence.

My being religious about pizza is not the same as You being religious about god.

Unless of course you want to degrade your belief in god as a slice of pizza?

A belief in the discoveries of science is not the same as a belief in God. A belief in the preference for coffee is not the same as the belief in the preference for PCs over Macs. I cannot compare my enjoyment of steak to my enjoyment of a hot shower.

If you want to engage in silly word games go for it. Only fools and charlatans will take that seriously.

[arian]

[Replying to post 63 by arian]

I never said you did anything or believed in anything because of religion. I am merely pointing out you are religious in terms of the English language.

Whether its a religion of your own devising or anothers it is still a religion. You might not share the exact same religious beliefs of others but you have still devised your own religion. What compels you is another matter altogether.

Theism

belief in the existence of a god or gods

do you believe in god or gods?

if yes then you are a theist.


There is no way around these words. If you don't like the label fine I understand that it carries a certain baggage to it. Yet regardless of whether its your own religion or someone else's

You still believe in the god as described in the bible

You still pray in some manner as relevant to yourself.

See, .. this is another thing I have explained a bunch of times, but you seem to be way overwhelmed by religions and their doctrines to be able to understand. Our mind is of and 'is God', that our mind is a bit of His Spirit, so how could it be beyond our capacity to know God in whose very image/likeness we were created?

Did I say capacity to know? I am referring to beyond human ability.

Can you create a universe?

No, not yet. But I am absolutely positive that my God, and Father can teach me.

Can you make a star?

No, .. but I can make a car, and even jet engines.
Hey, I'm just a kid, a child of God my Creator, and am trapped in a physical body that is doomed to corruption because of rebellion and unbelief.
Trains, planes and automobiles is just a start, and just looking at the things we can create even with these limitations proves to me that one day I will be able to do a lot, lot more once I drop this physical body that keeps pulling my mind to the earthly things.

Can you make a super massive black hole?

First you'll have to prove to me there are black holes, but if there are, then why not? I just have to learn more from my Father. We are children of the Creator, and we didn't start off creating stealth bombers, we made buggies for horses to pull. So even with these limitations, look how far we progressed just in a hundred years, then imagine what we could do with an incorruptible body, and having God and our Brother His Son Word (Now also Jesus Christ) teaching us?

Can you make a Quasar?

Do you believe your god can do these things?

Well let's see now, what other options do we have, what other Creator is on the list, ... aaah, oh yes, we have the quantum speck of whatever, that resided in nothing before space existed, and got hotter and denser until one moment before time it exploded with a Big-bang creating space for itself on the inside only as it expanded into nothing creating a special fabric called Spacetime that can expand like a balloon, but only from the inside, and not in-to anything... aahh, never mind.

You claim not to be religious You claim not to be a theist yet you follow the very definition of the word to the T. Unless you can prove that you don't worship a god that you don't believe in a god that you don't pray and that you don't have a moral structure derived from said God or scriptures pertaining to this god then you won't convince me or anyone else in the universe that you are either not a theist or not religious.

Wow, .. but I understand, because you are unable to see even when I use every angle I can think of. It's like the rules of relativity, you can only understand things relative to religious doctrines, anything outside of religious doctrines just simply don't make any sense to you.

As for your definition of religion: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe" I LOVE IT! Finally they admitted what I have been saying all along, that the Big-bang Evolution story is a religious one, not scientific. So I guess not all definitions are being perverted, some actually reveal the truth, .. only somehow I feel this was NOT intentional, more like a slip of the tongue, lol.

No it was intentional the english language is pretty flexible for example I am religious about pizza or I am religious about understanding the human mind.
What you are engaging here though is a false equivalence.

My being religious about pizza is not the same as You being religious about god.

How many religions are there, each with their individually created gods, and protected by their individual doctrines?
I said I believe in God, the real Creator, the ONLY logical Creator, not the religiously created ones. The God who IS, outside of religions and their gods.
If you cannot understand this far, the rest what I say will never make sense to you. I am NOT saying you are dumb, or uneducated and unable to understand, because obviously Einstein didn't understand even the basic principles of a Creator.

Unless of course you want to degrade your belief in god as a slice of pizza?

If my 'belief' is not based on evidence with substance, than a slice of pizza is worth a hundred times more then my faith without evidence.

A belief in the discoveries of science is not the same as a belief in God. A belief in the preference for coffee is not the same as the belief in the preference for PCs over Macs. I cannot compare my enjoyment of steak to my enjoyment of a hot shower.

If you want to engage in silly word games go for it. Only fools and charlatans will take that seriously.

The 'word games' have been played out by Satan over 6,000 years now. In these last days, it has become the main weapon of choice, as it is destroying all declarations, laws, logic, any word, any law that still has some basic meaning he challenges, and distorts. And for some reason there are billions who help him do it!?

Like the word games in the abortion debates, .. what a joke to have the word 'murder' to mean 'choice'. Be careful what you fight for my friend, because one day it will bite you back, and you will wish for the original and single meaning of words, and those clearly defined laws.

Look, it is obvious you can't or just refuse to see the Creator. As I said, you are trapped in darkness of religions and their doctrines, and what I am revealing is way beyond the smog of religious indoctrinations. You'll have to use your mind, cleared of the religious smog before you can see, I mean 'really see'.

So you still think that our mind is the product of the brain? If so, that would be the first misunderstanding you must deal with.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 65 by arian]

religious doctrines, anything outside of religious doctrines just simply don't make any sense to you.

I agree you believe in your OWN flavor of whatever it is you believe and you don't like the associated baggage with other religions. Call it what you will but I am still not wrong to call it a religious belief, as it is the definition of what religion is.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 65 by arian]

Look, it is obvious you can't or just refuse to see the Creator. As I said, you are trapped in darkness of religions and their doctrines, and what I am revealing is way beyond the smog of religious indoctrinations. You'll have to use your mind, cleared of the religious smog before you can see, I mean 'really see'.

So you still think that our mind is the product of the brain? If so, that would be the first misunderstanding you must deal with.

I am perfectly open to new ideas, I am evolving all the time when it comes to my perception of the world. I don't always know everything and I am not always right.

For as long as I have read your posts though I am still waiting for you to demonstrate anything that you claim. The only things you have ever provided are accusations against satan and quotes from movies. When you want to provide real evidence I am waiting.

[arian]

[Replying to post 65 by arian]

Look, it is obvious you can't or just refuse to see the Creator. As I said, you are trapped in darkness of religions and their doctrines, and what I am revealing is way beyond the smog of religious indoctrinations. You'll have to use your mind, cleared of the religious smog before you can see, I mean 'really see'.

So you still think that our mind is the product of the brain? If so, that would be the first misunderstanding you must deal with.

I am perfectly open to new ideas, I am evolving all the time when it comes to my perception of the world. I don't always know everything and I am not always right.

For as long as I have read your posts though I am still waiting for you to demonstrate anything that you claim. The only things you have ever provided are accusations against satan and quotes from movies. When you want to provide real evidence I am waiting.

Still waiting? Me too, starting with my last question; So you still think that our mind is the product of the brain? If so, that would be the first misunderstanding you must deal with.

Besides, how could you be evolving all the time when it comes to your perception of the world if you don't like my quotes from movies? And most movies are messages from Satan, it's better and more informative on what's really going on in the world than watching the news!

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 68 by arian]

If so, that would be the first misunderstanding you must deal with.

ok prove it I am open to hearing out the evidence to support your claim.

Besides, how could you be evolving all the time when it comes to your perception of the world if you don't like my quotes from movies?

what does that have to do with my ever changing perception of the world?

And most movies are messages from Satan

,
If most movies are messages from satan then why should I trust your movie quotes?

it's better and more informative on what's really going on in the world than watching the news!

So messages from satan are more informative on the world than watching the news?

When did you become a satanist?