"I am NOT an animal"

[Zzyzx]

.
"I am NOT an animal"

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

You see I am NOT an animal, never was and never in a billion years will I evolve to be one, my family tree all the way back to Adam don't have one ape in it.

2) Why be upset, indignant or in denial about a biological / taxonomic classification?

3) Since humans differ from other animals only in degree (some mental and physical characteristics), what is the objection to recognizing that they are animals?

4) Is anything other than religion (and possibly narcissism) involved?


In the quoted statement someone (whose theological position apparently defies description) claims knowledge of his family tree back to Adam – as though that proves the claimant is not an animal. However, if the hypothetical Adam was human (H. sapiens), he (Adam) classifies as an animal.

[squint]

So you agree that the prophets cannot be trusted?
:

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

Gods Prophets and Apostles left their marks, personally being as "nothing." It is not a position that is commonly held today.

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

[Clownboat]

So you agree that the prophets cannot be trusted?
:

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

This is bad advise. It would only be better to trust imaginary concepts when compared to putting confidence in a man that is out to deceive you. For example, when your mother told you to not play in the street, it was wise to trust her.

Now a con man or those selling unverified tails, that is a different story. Trust must be earned first, otherwise being deceived will likely follow.

Gods Prophets and Apostles left their marks, personally being as "nothing." It is not a position that is commonly held today.

I read this as claimed prophets and apostles in the Bible left their mark, but YOU are "nothing". You being nothing is not a position that is commonly held today.

This cannot be what you meant, is it?

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

I am a man that thinks himself to be a loving husband and father. I reject the Bible telling me that I am nothing (and also that I am evil) and perceive this claim as the Bible attempting to deceive me.

Now why would a religion invent such a concept? Like I said before, I will not need the medicine (religion) if I don't first believe the claims of men that I am sick (evil).

I doubt you are truly an evil person. Perhaps more like a spiritual hypochondriac?

[squint]

This is bad advise. It would only be better to trust imaginary concepts when compared to putting confidence in a man that is out to deceive you. For example, when your mother told you to not play in the street, it was wise to trust her.

The presentation of scripture is that man is both good and evil internally. Anyone can test this premise internally within their own conscience and do so continually in reality.

Now a con man or those selling unverified tails, that is a different story. Trust must be earned first, otherwise being deceived will likely follow.

And irrational acceleration of some very simple factual internal observations are sure to follow, as you show.

Belief or not, there is no changing any persons internal constructs. Nor does belief eliminate the facts of evil internally.

If you follow the bouncing ball closely the Prophets and Apostles will mark themselves as being in a worse position than prior to belief. So belief is not all it's cracked up to be when falsely spun up on the rosy side of the equations.

I read this as claimed prophets and apostles in the Bible left their mark, but YOU are "nothing". You being nothing is not a position that is commonly held today.

This cannot be what you meant, is it?

See previous. In the christian equations it is the believers who are/will be the first into judgments and personal tribulations. And reality of observations will bear this out to be a fact in the "internal sense."

FOR example, IF christians are commanded/advised to love our neighbors as ourselves, HOW is it do you think that the majority of them end up proposing that their fellow man, whom they are to LOVE, end up in their minds being burned alive forever?

THIS IS Gods Own Adverse Judgment coming upon their MINDS. So it is an arena that should be entered with extreme caution as there are factual adverse side effects that turn people into haters and hypocrites. I would not advise it without caution and warnings.

These are NOT easy traps to extricate from.

I am a man that thinks himself to be a loving husband and father. I reject the Bible telling me that I am nothing (and also that I am evil) and perceive this claim as the Bible attempting to deceive me.

That was never the case made. Man, internally is both 'good and evil.' It is pointless to observe only one side of the equation.

Now why would a religion invent such a concept? Like I said before, I will not need the medicine (religion) if I don't first believe the claims of men that I am sick (evil).

You can claim whatever you want. Scripture says that man is inherently, internally both good and evil and I consider that to be a real tested internal fact regardless. No one is or resides "entirely and wholly" to the good in the internal sense.

I doubt you are truly an evil person. Perhaps more like a spiritual hypochondriac?

I think my beliefs have imbued me with a very realistic view of my human compatriots and I also think the sight is both truthful and accurate by facts and experiences, internal and external.

It doesn't take a 'leap' of faith to see what we are discussing.

[Clownboat]

This is bad advise. It would only be better to trust imaginary concepts when compared to putting confidence in a man that is out to deceive you. For example, when your mother told you to not play in the street, it was wise to trust her.

The presentation of scripture is that man is both good and evil internally. Anyone can test this premise internally within their own conscience and do so continually in reality.

Now a con man or those selling unverified tails, that is a different story. Trust must be earned first, otherwise being deceived will likely follow.

And irrational acceleration of some very simple factual internal observations are sure to follow, as you show.

Belief or not, there is no changing any persons internal constructs. Nor does belief eliminate the facts of evil internally.

If you follow the bouncing ball closely the Prophets and Apostles will mark themselves as being in a worse position than prior to belief. So belief is not all it's cracked up to be when falsely spun up on the rosy side of the equations.

I read this as claimed prophets and apostles in the Bible left their mark, but YOU are "nothing". You being nothing is not a position that is commonly held today.

This cannot be what you meant, is it?

See previous. In the christian equations it is the believers who are/will be the first into judgments and personal tribulations. And reality of observations will bear this out to be a fact in the "internal sense."

FOR example, IF christians are commanded/advised to love our neighbors as ourselves, HOW is it do you think that the majority of them end up proposing that their fellow man, whom they are to LOVE, end up in their minds being burned alive forever?

THIS IS Gods Own Adverse Judgment coming upon their MINDS. So it is an arena that should be entered with extreme caution as there are factual adverse side effects that turn people into haters and hypocrites. I would not advise it without caution and warnings.

These are NOT easy traps to extricate from.

I am a man that thinks himself to be a loving husband and father. I reject the Bible telling me that I am nothing (and also that I am evil) and perceive this claim as the Bible attempting to deceive me.

That was never the case made. Man, internally is both 'good and evil.' It is pointless to observe only one side of the equation.

Now why would a religion invent such a concept? Like I said before, I will not need the medicine (religion) if I don't first believe the claims of men that I am sick (evil).

You can claim whatever you want. Scripture says that man is inherently, internally both good and evil and I consider that to be a real tested internal fact regardless. No one is or resides "entirely and wholly" to the good in the internal sense.

I doubt you are truly an evil person. Perhaps more like a spiritual hypochondriac?

I think my beliefs have imbued me with a very realistic view of my human compatriots and I also think the sight is both truthful and accurate by facts and experiences, internal and external.

It doesn't take a 'leap' of faith to see what we are discussing.

You were not aware it seems that man could be both good an evil until you extrapolated this from the Bible, even though I assume you had previously made both good and bad decisions in life yourself?

It's as if you were not aware that man could walk on his feet until you read a story in the Bible about the Exodus. Holy Crap! The Bible says that man can walk on his feet, and here I am observing just that. Praise the Bible!

This is very strange for me. This is something that is obvious once a person has viewed a person doing both. For that reason, seeing something in the Bible that a child can perceive happening in the real world is not very impressive and for me cannot amount to being any kind of evidence.

Why are you impressed with such an obvious thing?
Did you know that man cannot live on bread alone? Prepare to have your mind blown! Praise the Bible!

[squint]

You were not aware it seems that man could be both good an evil until you extrapolated this from the Bible, even though I assume you had previously made both good and bad decisions in life yourself?

Anyone can extrapolate this information, internally, by examination of their own conscience.

It's as if you were not aware that man could walk on his feet until you read a story in the Bible about the Exodus. Holy Crap! The Bible says that man can walk on his feet, and here I am observing just that. Praise the Bible!

I'm really not all that interested in examining your sights of these matters other than to say it's much more interesting than what you "think" you see.

This is very strange for me. This is something that is obvious once a person has viewed a person doing both. For that reason, seeing something in the Bible that a child can perceive happening in the real world is not very impressive and for me cannot amount to being any kind of evidence.

Scripture presents that people have their own individual "self evidence" built into them in regards to these very basic matters and that it can be 'examined' and 'empirically tested' internally by anyone.

Why are you impressed with such an obvious thing?

Why are you in derision of the obvious is a question as well. I take particular interests in the "dark side" of these equations from a scriptural perspective if for no other reason, the continuing expressions of these things "in man."

Did you know that man cannot live on bread alone? Prepare to have your mind blown! Praise the Bible!

Jesus said that man will LIVE by every Word of God. So if you see threats there I'd suggest that life or to live is not against you or anyone else for that matter. Generally speaking it is good for anyone to move against their own internal evil and to resist being enslaved by same.

[Clownboat]

You were not aware it seems that man could be both good an evil until you extrapolated this from the Bible, even though I assume you had previously made both good and bad decisions in life yourself?

Anyone can extrapolate this information, internally, by examination of their own conscience.

It's as if you were not aware that man could walk on his feet until you read a story in the Bible about the Exodus. Holy Crap! The Bible says that man can walk on his feet, and here I am observing just that. Praise the Bible!

I'm really not all that interested in examining your sights of these matters other than to say it's much more interesting than what you "think" you see.

This is very strange for me. This is something that is obvious once a person has viewed a person doing both. For that reason, seeing something in the Bible that a child can perceive happening in the real world is not very impressive and for me cannot amount to being any kind of evidence.

Scripture presents that people have their own individual "self evidence" built into them in regards to these very basic matters and that it can be 'examined' and 'empirically tested' internally by anyone.

Why are you impressed with such an obvious thing?

Why are you in derision of the obvious is a question as well. I take particular interests in the "dark side" of these equations from a scriptural perspective if for no other reason, the continuing expressions of these things "in man."

Did you know that man cannot live on bread alone? Prepare to have your mind blown! Praise the Bible!

Jesus said that man will LIVE by every Word of God. So if you see threats there I'd suggest that life or to live is not against you or anyone else for that matter. Generally speaking it is good for anyone to move against their own internal evil and to resist being enslaved by same.

It's as if I'm saying "potato" and your saying "bowling shoes". Perhaps I am just not able to convey anything meaningful for you to understand. Either way, for me to continue to try to have a meaningful dialog with you would seem to be an effort in futility.

If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask. Perhaps attempt to form them into Yes/No answers if possible where I can then expand on the why.

Be well.

[Peds nurse]

So you agree that the prophets cannot be trusted?
:

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

This is bad advise. It would only be better to trust imaginary concepts when compared to putting confidence in a man that is out to deceive you. For example, when your mother told you to not play in the street, it was wise to trust her.

As a child, you wouldn't probably grasp the concept of it being wise. This is exactly why it is better to put confidence in God, rather than man. As men (people), we only say or do what we understand to be true. If the child doesn't believe that it is unsafe to play in the street, they just might do it. God, can only be truth, for in Him there are no lies.

Now a con man or those selling unverified tails, that is a different story. Trust must be earned first, otherwise being deceived will likely follow.

Sometimes, we don't know that they are con men, do we? Con men usually come across as very confident and savvy, and when they have your trust, is when you are deceived. We get to know the character of God, we trust His promises, and we find that indeed, he is trustworthy.

Gods Prophets and Apostles left their marks, personally being as "nothing." It is not a position that is commonly held today.

I read this as claimed prophets and apostles in the Bible left their mark, but YOU are "nothing". You being nothing is not a position that is commonly held today.

This cannot be what you meant, is it?

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

I am a man that thinks himself to be a loving husband and father. I reject the Bible telling me that I am nothing (and also that I am evil) and perceive this claim as the Bible attempting to deceive me.

I don't think that is what he meant CB. When we think we are something we are not, we deceive ourselves. When we think we can get to Heaven or obtain grace, by merely doing acts of kindness, apart from God...we are deceived.

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 167 by Peds nurse]

The difficulty I'm having, Peds nurse, is that the scripture (according to squint) is telling us not to trust man, only trust god. And yet, we only know about god from scripture which comes from man. The very same creature the bible tells us is flawed and not to be trusted.

Or is it, don't trust your fellow man, except it comes to Christianity? Then its ok?

-all the best

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 167 by Peds nurse]

The difficulty I'm having, Peds nurse, is that the scripture (according to squint) is telling us not to trust man, only trust god. And yet, we only know about god from scripture which comes from man. The very same creature the bible tells us is flawed and not to be trusted.

KenRU (aka:Keanu Reeves, Haha)!!!

I understand what you are saying, but I believe their is a misunderstanding. When the Bible tells us to not put our trust in man, but in God, what that translates to is faith. We are told to not to put our faith in man, but God. This means that when things get crazy in our lives, we don't ask of men, what we should be asking of God. "Should I divorce my wife? Is this the right spouse for me? I am so lonely that I want to give up on life. Should I try drugs? You get the point. We cannot only seek the advice of man, for God knows the plans he has for us, and sometimes who we ask, does not have our best interest in mind. And, when we do seek the advice of man, we run it by God first.

It would be silly for us to marry and never trust our spouse. However, we cannot put our spouse before God. We cannot expect our loved ones to fill the shoes of God...it sets everyone up for failure (from a Christian point of view).

Or is it, don't trust your fellow man, except it comes to Christianity? Then its ok?

We can trust our fellow man, if they are trustworthy...but we cannot trust them more than God (for believers).
-all the best

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 142 by arian]

I didn't say: "My God is the only true God", .. I said there can Only be One Creator, and THAT One is my God.

Is that to say that there may be other (or many) gods but that only one can be the creator god and that it is your favorite god?

Is that an opinion or a statement of fact?

I present this as Undeniable scientific fact. And by George check out the example I just found on the same subject finally being seriously considered in science. Boy this BB and Evolution religions sure bottlenecked the progress of science on these more important studies, it is only now being taken more seriously.

1. Being seriously considered does not mean the same as it's a fact. You confuse consideration with fact. I can consider any number of things that aren't facts.

2. Where are your scientific facts?.. I see none. I see your claim and that's all.

3. Anyone can make an unsupported claim.


SEE: Forum Rule #5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Xsp4FRgas

(Minus the universe out of nothing part, they still are working on that. Once they realize that God IS that Infinite and Eternal conscious Creative mind, they will get it) slowly but surely.

4. You admit that scientists DO NOT YET realize your claims are true. Your initial claim that science has proved your creator concept contradicts this last statement of yours.

SEE: The law of non contradiction

Also the Biblical explanation of this:

5. Your claim is that science proves a creator. The Bible isn't science. Please stay on track.

But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.[/i]

6. What does FOOD have anything to do with a scientific proof for a creator? Please stay on track.

SEE: Non Sequitur

Like I said, my God, the Only One possible is real.

Kindly support this claim with sources more credible than your opinion or pontification.

Please see the video above, especially the 'infinite regress' part, maybe that will explain what I mean by 'The only One possible'.

7. However, a mind does not solve the problem of infinite regress, as one can easily ask "Whence the mind"?

8. The video doesn't supply facts. What it presents are speculations and possibilities.

SEE: Category error

Only the knowledge that I have found is far, far more precious than any diamond.

Kindly step to the back of the line. Thousands ahead of you have claimed special (and precious) knowledge.

I'm not claiming anything here, I am telling yas what I know.

9. You are making a knowledge claim.

SEE: Definition of the word "Claim", and of the term "knowledge claim"
Also SEE: "epistemology".

It is you who is standing in line of a gauntlet with others here and berating the poor religionists with their false created gods as you make them run your gauntlet.

11. Critical thinking is a completely legitimate and crucial gauntlet for any claim.

10. Your claim that other "religionists" have false created gods is unsupported.

SEE: The No True Scotsman Fallacy

Only my definition of our Creator is way too big for your gauntlet.

11. You can define your god any way you like. Others have that right as well. HOWEVER a definition for a thing isn't evidence for that thing. We can define things that aren't real. In order to PROVE that your creator concept is real, you will have to supply evidence that it IS real.

In your world-view, one word like god is like any other, .. god, god, god, there are tens of thousands of them, right? same with 'creator that created the creator that created a creator that created the robot who is seeking his creator.

I am aware that thousands of gods have been proposed, worshiped, feared, loved by humans. Some of them may be claimed to have created the universe. How can your favorite be SHOWN to be any more valid than others?

Because I can tell you (and have many times before) how the universe was created,

12. HOW it was created?.. you mean to tell us that you KNOW what caused the universe? What a spectacular claim. No scientist makes it.

13. If you want to PROVE that a creator of the universe exists, then you must NOT start off by implying that it HAS been created. You don't want to put your CONCLUSION into your PREMISES.

SEE: Circular Argument.

and I can also define our Creator, as The Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am",

14. Again, the fact that you have a DEFINITION of something does NOT mean you have proof or evidence of something.

SEE: Objection # 11 above.

the only problem we are having is that religionists who have been made to believe the universe came about from nothing, and that they are evolving animals can't comprehend this.

15. Again, you make the same NO TRUE SCOTSMAN fallacy. Just because other kinds of Christians don't AGREE with you does NOT make them false Christians, as they could say the exact same thing of you.

16. Just because other kinds of Christians do not agree with you, does NOT make them automatically WRONG. In order to prove this claim, you will have to supply evidence.

SEE: No True Scotsman Fallacy for 15, and 16

17. Every time you DENY huge parts of science, you UNDERMINE your main claim that SCIENCE proves your creator god.

SEE: The law of non contradiction

18. JUST BECAUSE we don't agree with your conclusions about evolution IT DOES NOT MEAN we cannot comprehend what you say.

19. JUST BECAUSE we don't agree with your conclusions about the universe coming from nothing IT DOES NOT MEAN we cannot comprehend what you say.

SEE: Non Sequitur

20. I comprehend what you say. However, what you say often lacks proper logical structure, is riddled with logical errors, and is even WORSE when it comes to any supporting evidence. As Zzyzx properly explains to you in the conversation below.

21. You are implying that people who believe they are evolved from apes are not expected to comprehend good thinking. So, if we don't comprehend you, it's because of OUR limitations and not yours.

SEE: Poisoning The Well

Is there ANYONE here that understands what I am saying?

It is unclear whether anyone understands but there does not seem to be anyone who accepts what you say as being truthful and accurate. Is that surprising?

Not at all Z, .. not at all. And I stopped expecting anything more then this from those who believe they are evolving apes. /quote]

22. SEE : 17 through 21. Repeating irrational thinking does not make the irrational thinking rational. You're just repeating the same mistakes.

But what I have and see/understand comes from the other side, the invisible and undetectable side

How can the "invisible and undetectable side" be distinguished from imaginary?

There you go! The Invisible and undetectable IS the imaginary, it is the Mind/consciousness. Please see that video.

23. The video is about how the universe can be defined as a Matrix or mind in a vat or virtual reality. It says nothing about how imagination is anything more than fantasy.

24. Again, you contradict yourself. IF something is undetectable, you cannot claim that you've detected anything about it.

If you say that something is invisible, you cannot say that it is visible. It's one or the other.

When we tell people that they aren't making any sense, it is often because we think that they are saying something contradictory.

that creates the detectable, or finite side.

Neither the entity nor the proposed creation by that entity has been shown to be anything more than imagination or wishful thinking.

Yes, .. yes, .. yes .. now if you could only comprehend what you just said and we'd be on our way to the next step, .. the 'creating' part, right after imagination and wishful thinking.

25. You imagine that people don't comprehend what they say. We can easily imagine that you don't comprehend what you say.

It's your job to help us comprehend what you say.

However, if what you say doesn't make sense, if full of logical errors and isn't based on evidence, then you can't expect people to "comprehend" that kind of thing.

Maybe if you address these 25 problems, we MIGHT start being able to comprehend you. Otherwise, we won't be able to do that.