Why does God need a book?

[OnceConvinced]

The bible tells us about the Book of Life, which contains the names of those who have been saved and are going to Heaven. If your name does not appear you go to Hell. (Chick Tracts even have God asking the chief Angel "Does his name appear in the book of life?")

There are two issues I have with this (and topics for discussion):

1) If God is all knowing and he knows each of us personally, then why does he need a book to record our names? Santa doesn't need a book to know who's naughty and nice. He just knows. But God needs a book. Why does he need a book when he is all knowing?

2) Why a book? Wouldn't they have really amazing technology in Heaven? You'd think they'd have computers, perhaps even something superior to computers. If the bible had described some kind of metal box that contained all the names... or perhaps a flat round disk, that would go a long way to showing that the bible was divine and not just ancient man's ignorance. Imagine how huge the book would have to be! It would be mammoth. So why use a book rather than some other form of data storage?

Feel free to speculate, even if you have nothing solid.

[Inigo Montoya]

Arain wrote

Yes, I have very little schooling, but a keen ability to understand concepts no matter its difficulty.

Objection, your honor. As citing evidence, let me present a summary of every post ever made by Arian.

''There is a non-man-made God that really means eternal consciousness linked to our inner spirit, but I'm not at all religious, ergo if I was on a spaceship traveling at C with a hammer and a string and a twin brother and a clock and an hourglass...''

LOL, .. you are funny.

Yeah, according to special relativity, if we took that hammer at 0.99999 C and threw it out the window, it would be tiny as a quark, and weigh near the mass of the entire universe, and would annihilate every star and planet in it's way! Talking about Odin's Hammer!!

Why, you don't believe in the non-man made God? Must every god be man-made? It sure seems like it since no one can understand the One True God "I Am Who I Am".

Take care Montoya.

Friendly pro-tip: If you don't understand special relativity (which you obviously don't, as evidenced by countless posts in your hand), don't write on it or even mention it in passing.

Until evidence is presented to the contrary, every ''god'' being man-made is exactly where reason leads. Gods that have to be argued into existence or exist solely in philosophical dialogue or sleight of hand syllogisms are of no use to anyone. Present company excluded, of course.

[Korah]

[Replying to post 78 by arian]
You're shooting from the hip again, arian. Yes, I did say that Mormons correctly deduce from the Bible that each human soul already existed before birth, indeed even before conception. That's called Pre-existence. I'm Lutheran, but Luther was wrong to teach that the human soul arises as a product of conception (Traducianism). The usual (wrong) doctrine is that God specially creates each human soul at conception.
But Mormons also are wrong. Where did this pre-existent soul come from? It already existed just as Jesus taught as some earlier human being. "But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. ..Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist." (Mt.16:12ab, 13: NIV) See Elihu speaking for God in Job 33, especially verses 29 and 30, and best read in the New American Bible from verse 22 to 30.
But in your typical wildness, you're not afraid to think outside the box, even OUTSIDE YOUR OWN BOX, that someone else may have something to teach you.

As for becoming something else, I have already stated here recently that I have been sequentially a Methodist, agnostic, Arian, liberal Protestant. liberal Roman Catholic, Traditionalist Roman Catholic, Charismatic Renewal Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, and ELCA Lutheran, in which I currently feel ill suited. So I will likely change again. Maybe Nestorian, I don't know.

[OnceConvinced]

The bible tells us about the Book of Life, which contains the names of those who have been saved and are going to Heaven. If your name does not appear you go to Hell. (Chick Tracts even have God asking the chief Angel "Does his name appear in the book of life?")

There are two issues I have with this (and topics for discussion):

1) If God is all knowing and he knows each of us personally, then why does he need a book to record our names? Santa doesn't need a book to know who's naughty and nice. He just knows. But God needs a book. Why does he need a book when he is all knowing?

2) Why a book? Wouldn't they have really amazing technology in Heaven? You'd think they'd have computers, perhaps even something superior to computers. If the bible had described some kind of metal box that contained all the names... or perhaps a flat round disk, that would go a long way to showing that the bible was divine and not just ancient man's ignorance. Imagine how huge the book would have to be! It would be mammoth. So why use a book rather than some other form of data storage?

Feel free to speculate, even if you have nothing solid.

I don't think its a question of "needs", thats a strong word that you are assuming and "needs" is not used in the scripture either... right?

and this question has kind of a literal since to it. You talk about it like its a literal book, but it is not a literal statement. In fact, I believe that is talked about in Revelations, right? Revelations is a book that was a vision... There is not a lot of literal content in revelations. The entire book is full of symbolic metaphors, and such...

I think it's easy for Christians to claim it's not a literal book, especially in this day and age where it would be just absurd. I don't see why the people at the time would think that it was symbolic though.

Revelations may be a book of symbolism, but does that mean that the book of life is? It could be but can we know for sure?

[OnceConvinced]

I dare to take for granted that the apostles (and all disciples) of Christ in general were christians. So that raises this question:
Did Judas become an ex-christian when he went traitor on Christ or was he never truly saved ?

Some will read out of earlier Judas-references that it is rather the latter, but then that raises the question:
Why would Christ appoint a none-christian to apostleship?

Exactly. Christ chose his disciples very carefully and Judas was one of them. He was endorsed by Jesus so had to be a genuine believer and the very first ex-Christian.

[OnceConvinced]

2) Why a book? Wouldn't they have really amazing technology in Heaven? You'd think they'd have computers, perhaps even something superior to computers. If the bible had described some kind of metal box that contained all the names... or perhaps a flat round disk, that would go a long way to showing that the bible was divine and not just ancient man's ignorance. Imagine how huge the book would have to be! It would be mammoth. So why use a book rather than some other form of data storage?

Feel free to speculate, even if you have nothing solid.

Remember this was written when CD was unheard of, so it's not what Heaven can do, but what simple man here on earth could understand. Even just a 100 years ago, anything other then a 'book' would not have made any sense.

But hold on these were visions of future events. If they were visions of future events he would see the wonderful new technology being used.

Why would God reveal something that would have only made sense in the last hundred years of human physical existence?

According to most Christians he has.

In reality, there's nothing in Revelation that makes much in the way of sense anyway. But as it is revealing future events then the images seen would be of the future, not the present. There are already events in Revelations that Christians are trying to paint with a modern day brush. Eg, Nuclear holocaust. That wouldn't have made sense to someone back then either.

The message had to be clearly understood right then. Besides, even though Newspapers and books are turning completely digital, I believe we will always refer to digital books as 'books', .. don't you think?

Why would you think that Revelations made more sense to people back then, than it does now?

BTW we do not call computer databases books.

"I've seen a shiny disk that was put in a slot, and a window opened up with words on it" now I know this would of been cool in the last 100 years, but what about all them people who died before the invention of the CD?

You're saying that the crazy descriptions that were already written would have made sense to them anyway?

God already decided when the world was gonna end right? He knew when the end times were coming. The book of Revelations makes it obvious he wanted to let people know when the end times were in progress. What better way would it be then to have passages which would only become obvious to those who were actually living in the end times? Imagine if he did describe CDs or computers. It would be clearly divine. We would know without a doubt it was referring to us now. Imagine if Paul himself had read these descriptions? Perhaps he wouldn't have foolishly believed Jesus was to return in his life time. He would have known those times were not yet upon him.

The important thing was to get the message across so everyone could understand. But yeas, I can't wait for the coming technology God prepared for those who love Him!?

And how has the book of Revelations, as it is, achieved this ever? All it’s done is have people making wild stabs. Each generation takes the book of Revelation and tries to make out the end times are here today and they try to take the scriptures in it and try to make it fit with the present.

But let's use our imagination as to what recording equipment (books) could look like in Heaven? I myself could imagine a beautiful big golden scroll, as it unrolls (like those bendable screens coming out), words appear.

If I was the writer of the book of Revelations and I was seeing visions of 2015 or somewhere around now, I would be imagining a little black box or something like that. A metallic gleaming slate. Or if it's in our future I might imagine holographic images or maybe something even more futuristic that humans haven't even thought of yet. The fact that the writer of Revelations is seeing only his current day technology is proof he was simply dreaming it all up from his own primitive imagination.

There are a lot of that in Revelations, and it is just starting to make sense, like helicopters with faces of men, hair of a woman etc. I am not going to speculate, since there are so many out there that do that, yet miss the whole point of the message.

So if the book of Revelations describes helicopters… ie, modern technology then your whole argument has just been blown out of the water. How is the description of a helicopter going to make sense to people 2000 years ago or in 1800? You’re not being consistent here. If Revelations describes helicopters, then why not computers or CDs?

“Starting to make sense�. You said it. Imagine how much more sense it would make now if it described computers or CDs rather than a plain old archaic book?

And for security where God doesn't want any Angel or any Heavenly Creature reading something before its time, there would be a seal (password) to keep any unauthorized person access to it. I could imagine some awesome futuristic book where no present technology could even come close to it, and yet the outside, the cover of the book would be very classical in design. And for a better feel to the book, it would grow in size as more information was added into it. Not that a tiny chip sized book couldn't contain all the names of everyone that has ever lived, including a total recording of every second of their lives!? That classic old book-look would be just for preference.

He would be seeing similar. He would be seeing future technology for events that were a long way off. Not a book.

If he was seeing this stuff, it would be proof that the bible was divine. Giving accurate descriptions of futuristic technology. Instead we get a plain old book, something that rarely ever gets used any more to store data on. Evidence that the writer of the story was not seeing future events.

You wouldn't be saying that if we were living in the 1,800's right now!?

I would be looking at it and saying “ok, that’s not what we’re seeing today. Perhaps it’s not the end times yet?�

Besides, what he seen was a book, not a plain old book. It may have been the most awesome book that it would take us another 1,000 years to design. Not digital, but something indescribable, yet look like a book.

Doesn't seem likely to me. Something that thick? Nah. Not with computer technology getting smaller. Why would someone use something that big when they could just use something flat like an IPad? Besides aren't Christians today always insisting his return is eminent?

Believe me, no matter what he described or seen, even if it was an Apple Computer, the world would still deny their Creator. You sound like so many others here; "If God would tell me my favorite number and color, .. THEN, .. yes THEN I will bow down and worship Him, .. ohuh, yep I would too, .. I swear on a stack of Bibles (which I don't believe a word from)" Lol.

This is just your very negative and cynical opinion, which I see no reason to accept. I do not believe non-believers are that stubborn.

If the evidence is convincing then people will believe. But if it’s symbolic and vague, like most of Revelations is at the moment, then of course no one would believe.

Even so, what about those who would believe? What about the ones who are looking for the end times and the ones who would have a boost in faith if this technology was described in the Book of Revelations rather than vague airy fairy imagery? Imagine the thousands that would say “WOW the bible really is God’s word!�

But that's just my imagination, I'm sure Heaven has some awesome 'books' that far, far surpasses anything we could ever imagine in a million years. Where todays CD and computer technology would pale in comparison.

Indeed and the writer of the book of Revelations, describing events happening over 2000 years into the future would see this stuff as well. Instead or he sees is primitive things from his own time. Things like riders on horses, chariots, books, archaic weapons/armour.

You mean like" "Then I saw an Angel which I was told was just a holographic image riding on a flagmack, which was ragriden by plumpuff engines that slimdwarfed different colors of quarks that the Higgs boson brought into reality through shmignikules alternating at very high frequencies flying through worm holes sucking up dark and white matter like no ones business, as it came up to me, but didn't come up to me because of the zmigue colorastions, it teleported the message by the old frrrrmm sytem as music" (remember, this is how it would of sound to billions and billions of people before the invention of the CD or your black-box.) but yes, maybe THEN you would have believed, .. and why is it that I don't believe you?

Be realistic. The guy would be describing what he sees through his own eyes. He would be doing the best to describe it from his point of view. So he’s not gonna come up with words like “holographic� , “teleport� or “plumpuff�. He would do what he HAS done and that’s describe things to the best of his ability. If a book is there then it must be a book. Otherwise he’d describe it as something else like a flat metal slab or something like that. I’ve already given you such examples so I don’t know why you are trying to come up with something silly like you have.

Oh, .. because people rather choose billion year old religious stories as their Creator over God whom I described in whose image we were created in. And that they are evolving apes, animals for Petesake.

We have evidence of evolution. It actually makes way more sense than magic.

This is what I was trying to point out in my OP. The writer of revelations was witnessing future events so should have been seeing futuristic things.

So no books, horses, people but futuristic things, .. like, .. like what, Terminator robots, CHAPPiE robots with claimed human souls residing in them?

Ok now you’re just really getting silly. I have already given you realistic examples several times. Clearly you have no good arguments to give in return. The debate is lost so start making a mockery of the subject?

[DefenderofTruth]

The bible tells us about the Book of Life, which contains the names of those who have been saved and are going to Heaven. If your name does not appear you go to Hell. (Chick Tracts even have God asking the chief Angel "Does his name appear in the book of life?")

There are two issues I have with this (and topics for discussion):

1) If God is all knowing and he knows each of us personally, then why does he need a book to record our names? Santa doesn't need a book to know who's naughty and nice. He just knows. But God needs a book. Why does he need a book when he is all knowing?

2) Why a book? Wouldn't they have really amazing technology in Heaven? You'd think they'd have computers, perhaps even something superior to computers. If the bible had described some kind of metal box that contained all the names... or perhaps a flat round disk, that would go a long way to showing that the bible was divine and not just ancient man's ignorance. Imagine how huge the book would have to be! It would be mammoth. So why use a book rather than some other form of data storage?

Feel free to speculate, even if you have nothing solid.

I don't think its a question of "needs", thats a strong word that you are assuming and "needs" is not used in the scripture either... right?

and this question has kind of a literal since to it. You talk about it like its a literal book, but it is not a literal statement. In fact, I believe that is talked about in Revelations, right? Revelations is a book that was a vision... There is not a lot of literal content in revelations. The entire book is full of symbolic metaphors, and such...

I think it's easy for Christians to claim it's not a literal book, especially in this day and age where it would be just absurd. I don't see why the people at the time would think that it was symbolic though.

Revelations may be a book of symbolism, but does that mean that the book of life is? It could be but can we know for sure?

Typical,

I think it's easy for Christians to claim it's not a literal book, especially in this day and age where it would be just absurd. I don't see why the people at the time would think that it was symbolic though.

Christians can't take anything as non literal without a nonbeliever bashing on them for this. THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS COMPLETELY A RECORD OF A VISION. This book is completely depicted as a vision, with things that are not in the real world. We have every right to interpret it just as that.

And i also want to comment on "now-a-days we know stuff like that couldn't happen",
Or your quote
"especially in this day and age where it would be just absurd."

It would be absurd in TAHT DAY AND AGE TOO! Just like, 'oh now we know people can't have kids if they are virgins'. ROLF, do you think they didn't know a virgin couldn't have a child!? OF COURCE THEY DID! it doesn't matter if it is 2015 or it is 500bc, we all recognize it as a miracle.

That goes the same with 7 headed dragons..lol.. you think they didn't know that kind of stuff wasn't real back then? There is no way people looked at the book of revelation, no matter what day and age, and thought it was a literal account of something.. thats nonsense... This is a book depicting a vision that didn't take place in the physical world. It is a metaphoric book depicting the battle between good and evil.. Thats what the Book is, everyone knows it...

[OnceConvinced]

From Post 42:

Oh man, .. that's Joey for you, .. lol. So God needs a book not only to record things in, but to talk to us too, like the Bible right? But did you know that; "Words CAN hurt you!?" Really, .. I've seen this commercial where a word knocked Jessy right off his horse, .. so imagine on that Last Day when the Lord throws the entire book at ya? Ouch!

That reminds me of how Jesus doesn't seem like he's so much for the "by the book" stuff, but does seem to express the idea that love for fellow humans should temper our actions t'wards 'em when they goof.

Exactly, that's why the Jewish Religious leaders hated him so. Picking wheat, then smashing it in their hands and eating it ON THE SABBATH (OMG) while the Pharisees were watching in horror (lol) then He went on freeing a woman caught in adultery spoiling a perfectly good reason to stone somebody, then calling himself the Son of God, .. the list just goes on and on.

Yep. They clearly hated him due to his arrogance and his judgmental attitude towards them. You can just see how people are reviled on this very website when they come in with haughty attitudes, making out they're speaking on God's behalf, that they are somehow chosen by God, and then start breaking the rules, making out they're superior and acting like judgmental asses.

The Jewish leaders saw Jesus as a blasphemer. That with everything else? It's no wonder they didn't like him.

[OnceConvinced]

I think it's easy for Christians to claim it's not a literal book, especially in this day and age where it would be just absurd. I don't see why the people at the time would think that it was symbolic though.

Revelations may be a book of symbolism, but does that mean that the book of life is? It could be but can we know for sure?

Typical,

Is that supposed to be slur against me?

Typical? Why? Do you know me that well. I find that hard to believe as you haven't even been a member of this website for a month yet.

Are you upset because I question and I challenge your claims? Would you prefer I just accept everything you say as if you’re some kind of an expert?

I think it's easy for Christians to claim it's not a literal book, especially in this day and age where it would be just absurd. I don't see why the people at the time would think that it was symbolic though.

Christians can't take anything as non literal without a nonbeliever bashing on them for this.

In what way am I bashing you? I am simply challenging your claim. Is that persecution in your books?

THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS COMPLETELY A RECORD OF A VISION.

A vision of future events. Things, most of which, were not to take place until well over 2000 years. I am quite aware it's a vision so there's no need to shout.

This book is completely depicted as a vision, with things that are not in the real world.

Some of the descriptions are of things not of the real world, but some are. In fact many Christians will argue for literal interpretations of several parts of the book of Revelations. Should I take you more seriously than them?

We have every right to interpret it just as that.

Sure you have the right to take the book of Revelations any way you want. But what is your opinion is your opinion. Why should I accept your opinion? Is it considered bashing you if I don’t accept your opinion on something?

And i also want to comment on "now-a-days we know stuff like that couldn't happen",
Or your quote
"especially in this day and age where it would be just absurd."

It would be absurd in TAHT DAY AND AGE TOO! Just like, 'oh now we know people can't have kids if they are virgins'. ROLF, do you think they didn't know a virgin couldn't have a child!? OF COURCE THEY DID! it doesn't matter if it is 2015 or it is 500bc, we all recognize it as a miracle.

Yes, there is lots of absurd stuff even in what we would say were definitely literal parts of the bible. There are literal parts of the bible which are just not true in reality. Even Christians can’t agree, in many cases, what it literal and what is symbolic.

That goes the same with 7 headed dragons..lol.. you think they didn't know that kind of stuff wasn't real back then? There is no way people looked at the book of revelation, no matter what day and age, and thought it was a literal account of something.. thats nonsense... This is a book depicting a vision that didn't take place in the physical world. It is a metaphoric book depicting the battle between good and evil.. Thats what the Book is, everyone knows it...

Clearly a 7 headed dragon is not real so no one is going to claim it to be literal. At least no one in their right mind. But can you compare a 7 headed dragon to a book?

Just how much of the book of Revelations is metaphorical in your mind? And exactly how can we know for sure? And how can you verify it?

[arian]

Arain wrote

Yes, I have very little schooling, but a keen ability to understand concepts no matter its difficulty.

Objection, your honor. As citing evidence, let me present a summary of every post ever made by Arian.

''There is a non-man-made God that really means eternal consciousness linked to our inner spirit, but I'm not at all religious, ergo if I was on a spaceship traveling at C with a hammer and a string and a twin brother and a clock and an hourglass...''

LOL, .. you are funny.

Yeah, according to special relativity, if we took that hammer at 0.99999 C and threw it out the window, it would be tiny as a quark, and weigh near the mass of the entire universe, and would annihilate every star and planet in it's way! Talking about Odin's Hammer!!

Why, you don't believe in the non-man made God? Must every god be man-made? It sure seems like it since no one can understand the One True God "I Am Who I Am".

Take care Montoya.

Friendly pro-tip: If you don't understand special relativity (which you obviously don't, as evidenced by countless posts in your hand), don't write on it or even mention it in passing.

For someone whose reasoning is limited by evolution, genetic mutation, change in heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations, are you sure you want to debate special relativity with someone who is created in The Creators image, and not only is aware of it, but understands it?

OK, .. your on.

Until evidence is presented to the contrary, every ''god'' being man-made is exactly where reason leads.

OK, first question; "What reason?"
Are you talking about reason that was brought about by a chaotic accident 4.2 billion years ago from a primordial soup puddles that accumulated by rocks sweating? Or are you talking about 'reason' that was brought about by the cosmic accident that forced a quantum speck of you know not what to appear from nothing exactly 13.75 billion years ago?

OR

Since we are on the Christian Debating Forum, I can assume you mean the reason that we inherited in our mind from our Creator God The Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am"? Which if that's the reasoning you are talking about, then that reason can ONLY reveal the obvious, that there can be but One Creator, and He is conscious, aware of Himself, able to create, within His Infinite Mind.

Gods that have to be argued into existence or exist solely in philosophical dialogue or sleight of hand syllogisms are of no use to anyone. Present company excluded, of course.

I agree with you there; Gods that have to be argued into existence are really no use for anyone, and don't exclude yourself from that wise statement, it's true!

Thanks friend.

[arian]

[Replying to post 78 by arian]
You're shooting from the hip again, arian.

I don't know about shooting from the hip, but I do know my hip acts up and there is shooting in my hip.

Yes, I did say that Mormons correctly deduce from the Bible that each human soul already existed before birth, indeed even before conception. That's called Pre-existence.

God breathed the breath of life into Adam's body He created from the dust. THAT breath is the Spirit of God. And a teeny-tiny Spirit of God is also Infinite.

So when God took Eve out of Adam, he passed a little of that infinite spirit in him to Eve.

Now every child Eve had, Eve passed a bit of her Infinite God given to Adam spirit into each and every one of them. And this continues today, every human born gets a bit of that Infinite spirit that was originally given (breathed into) Adam.

I don't see how we pre-existed, that is we the body with the spirit, or breath of life in us, which makes us living individual souls. This is how we become individuals; born from the fathers sperm into the mothers egg, and when the egg sticks and starts a blood flow, we become a living little humans. Having taken the DNA prints from both parents, which got them from our ancestors, which over the next 9 months forms a very unique individual.
The Spirit in us originated and IS God, the Holy Spirit, which exists and has always existed. But the body is unique so the spirit/mind in each person experiences life a little different. It's awesome how God thought all this out, documented it all in His Son Word (Tree of Life) and here we are.

I'm Lutheran, but Luther was wrong to teach that the human soul arises as a product of conception (Traducianism). The usual (wrong) doctrine is that God specially creates each human soul at conception.

A soul is body and spirit/mind, so why would that be wrong that the new soul (child) is created at conception? Oh wait, yeas, not at conception (when the sperm enters the egg) because there is no blood flow yet. So if that fertilized egg doesn't get stuck in the fallopian tube and starts a blood flow, it is not yet a living soul, for "life is in the blood".

But Mormons also are wrong. Where did this pre-existent soul come from? It already existed just as Jesus taught as some earlier human being. "But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. ..Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist." (Mt.16:12ab, 13: NIV) See Elihu speaking for God in Job 33, especially verses 29 and 30, and best read in the New American Bible from verse 22 to 30.
But in your typical wildness, you're not afraid to think outside the box, even OUTSIDE YOUR OWN BOX, that someone else may have something to teach you.

I check it all out my friend, Baptist, Mormon, Calvinist, .. you name it, I listen and check it all out.


Job 33:
24
and he is gracious to that person and says to God,
‘Spare them from going down to the pit;
I have found a ransom for them—
(The Word of God, His Son)

25
let their flesh be renewed like a child’s;
let them be restored as in the days of their youth’—
(resurrection)

26
then that person can pray to God and find favor with him,
they will see God’s face and shout for joy;
he will restore them to full well-being.
(when we all get to heaven, .. Being born again, in the newness of life)

27
And they will go to others and say,
‘I have sinned, I have perverted what is right,
but I did not get what I deserved.
(repentance, Jesus as sacrifice - bailed out))

28
God has delivered me from going down to the pit,
and I shall live to enjoy the light of life.’
(born again)

29
“God does all these things to a person—
twice, even three times—
(trials as by fire, .. like gold is purified. Like job come close to dying, or wish he was dead, so is the trials of a Believer, twice and even three times for some. I can't count how many times I came near death.)

30
to turn them back from the pit,
that the light of life may shine on them.
(self explanatory)

As for becoming something else, I have already stated here recently that I have been sequentially a Methodist, agnostic, Arian, liberal Protestant. liberal Roman Catholic, Traditionalist Roman Catholic, Charismatic Renewal Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, and ELCA Lutheran, in which I currently feel ill suited. So I will likely change again. Maybe Nestorian, I don't know.

Wow, you've been around. Same here, until I left religion and became a Disciple, a follower of Christ driven by faith which is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, (Heb 11:1) not blind faith which the dominations require because they worship deities.

Take care