I do not believe god stories and neither do you

[Zzyzx]

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The hallmark of Atheism / Non-Theism is disbelief in stories about gods. This seems to be considered by many Theists to be wrong (at the very least).

However, Theists typically take exactly the same "do not believe god stories" position regarding any of the thousands of proposed gods other than their favorite. Their reason for rejecting other gods is the same as Non-Theists use in refusing to believe tales about the Bible God " lack of credible, compelling evidence the stories are any more than imaginary (though they may add that they already believe in one god and cannot believe in more than one).

"The Bible says so " in three different places" is NOT credible, compelling evidence unless one already accepts the Bible as "the Word of God" (or whatever).

Question for debate:

Why is it difficult to accept that the lack of evidence that Christians use to dismiss claims about competing gods is exactly the same as the lack of evidence that Non-Theists use to reject the Bible God?

[ScioVeritas]

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[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I don't discredit other religions because they lack proof, I don't investigate other religions because there is no need to! I have found God...why would I keep searching?

Perhaps you found one of the minor gods (if such things as gods exist beyond imagination), the one favored by Bible writers (whoever they were) and the one currently popular in US society. Had you been born and raised elsewhere it is likely that you would have found a different god (as distribution of world religions indicates).

It is always God's plan, regardless of cultural influences, that we find Him!

Talk to any Muslims lately? Or any OTHER religious person lately? They don't agree with you.

A starting point might be to consider what evidence it would take to convince YOU that one of the other gods was "the real deal" and that the Bible god was just a minor player or an imposter promoted by Bible writers.

I don't need convinced Z. I am not looking for evidence of another God because I believe that my God is enough. I think it might be interesting to learn why others believe what they do, but I don't need to determine if their Gods are real.

Even IF you don't feel the need to be convinced that you are right.. doesn't it concern you that you might be wrong about your god beliefs?

How can you be so certain that you aren't WRONG.. and that SOME OTHER god is the one true god.. Because people of OTHER faiths say the same thing you know. The exact same thing. They don't feel the need either.

They feel convinced too. THEY are completely convinced.. they don't care what you believe in. and they feel love and happiness all their days. They feel sad for you because you are truly lost.

Doesn't it bother you that they think the exact same way you do?

Would a few unverifiable stories in an ancient book be enough? Would unverifiable testimonials about "revelations" or "visions" told or written about be enough? Would a personal visit from a "god" be convincing " or a dream?

What would it take PN?

I am not sure what you think Z. But as for me, I didn't read the Bible, and think..YES GOD IS REAL. No, God understood my unbelief, He understood my doubts, which is why He addresses this in His word.

Somehow, out of the blue, a GOD started talking to you? How do you know this isn't your imagination gone haywire?

How do you know this isn't a demon deceiving you to BELIEVE in cultist beliefs?

He says, trust me..just do it, and see if I don't fulfill every promise that I made unto mankind.

HE SAYS?.. hmmm do you mean you hear this in your imagination? Because, I don't THINK you mean he says with a voice that any OTHER person can hear...

Maybe it's another god, Peds. Maybe it's a demon, Peds. Maybe it's your imagination gone haywire, Peds.

MAYBE peds.. maybe a lot of things, peds.

If you give me your trust, I will fill your storehouse so full, that it won't be able to hold my gifts.

what gifts? cars? health? wealth?

or a happy feeling.. many people from different religions feel very happy with THEIR gods too.

But maybe you are talking about cars and money and good looks.. who knows?
can you tell us what exactly these GIFTS are?

Z, I didn't take a step toward God on evidence,

How is that NOT surprising, Peds?

You believe things without evidence?
HOW about I sell you some real estate.. no evidence.

I took a step toward Him in faith.

Have faith to know if anything ELSE is true.. because faith is a real good way to KNOW things if they are real. REALLY? .. no not really. Faith is a horrible method to know if something is TRUE or not.

What do you use faith for in life, except for your god beliefs?

He is a living God, constantly working in our lives, filling us with so much of His love, that it spills into the lives of others.

Your "god" is a living figment of your over active imagination. If you can make unsubstantiated claims, so can I. Your god is a demon deceiving you.

Sorry, it's a powerful demon. It's an alien from another dimension making you say nutty things. OOPSIE.
The "love" you feel isn't spilling here. What I see spilling here is a lot of empty words. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE .. ok but I have love and I don't need a god for that.

So what are you describing that's SPECIAL here?

Love? like others never heard of that?

I ask you the same question Z! What would it take for you to believe?

God does not write on a rock, "God was here." He does not rain down money, or put the Alps in your back yard.

As best I can tell, NONE of the gods DO anything (except in people's testimonials " that cannot be checked for truth and accuracy).

I beg to differ my friend! His love is conveyed through the very words I write. I WISH I could tell you the extreme love that I have for all on this forum. It isn't made up, it is real, genuine, and not created from myself.

Words are cheap.

You can write "love" as many times as you like. That's great. I can write love too. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE. There.. I wrote the word more often than you did. DO I win a prize for that?

Nah.. words are cheap.

You say you love me. I don't buy it. Sorry. Your internal feelings don't really affect me that much, you know. I wish I could tell YOU how much love I have for my pet hamster.

That doesn't affect if what you believe in is TRUE or not. You can be happy and mistaken.

You can be blissful while on crack cocaine. You can love everyone in here while taking Extacy... you can be joly whilst drunk.

YOUR FEELINGS do not guarantee that what you are saying is true. Sorry.

Try again.

He does give us evidence that He is God, that He created this earth and everything in it,

Okay, what evidence has God given to indicate that "he" created the Earth?

Look around you Z! The oxygen, the trees, the birds, the sun, the moon, the stars, and everything on this planet.

Yep, isn't [strike]Zeus[/strike] [strike]Vishnu [/strike] [strike]Allah[/strike] [strike]Quetzalcoatl [/strike] Yahweh wonderful? ..

Look around you, Ped!!!! Whatever you want to "see" that is in your imagination is THERE!!!

WOOPIE!

Because, when something makes you feel HAPPY it must be true. Like a drug.. heroin does nicely. HAPPY AS ALL GET OUT while on heroin. TRUE? Nah.. happiness is NO guarantee of the truth.

In our solar system, we are the ONLY planet capable of sustaining human life!

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah, that was ALLAH.

It wasn't by accident, it was on purpose...for us!

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah, that was VISHNU.

The evidence is in the order of the world.

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah, ZEUS.

The evidence of which God has supplied, can be hindered by our denial that He even exists.

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah.. some other small god.

So, we turn to science (which I do appreciate), looking for answers of how life began, only to find theories that leave us asking more questions, than it ever answers.

So therefore YOUR god and not any other? Nah, the COSMIC TURTLE.. remember, it's turtles all the way.....

The difference between Christianity and every other religion is that originally Christianity affirmed that Jesus rose from the dead and affirmed that YHWH is God. It's not a matter of Christianity vs Islam vs Hinduism, it's Christianity vs everything else. The claim of Christianity is exclusive, meaning that if it's true then all other religions are necessarily false. And if Jesus really rose from the dead then that affirms His claims and validates everything He did and said. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead then Christianity is meaningless and all Christians are being deceived or are delusional. But any person who believes in Jesus will necessarily deny all other gods. The evidence for Jesus' resurrection is the topic of another thread but that is the most important aspect of Christianity to investigate.

Additionally faith is everywhere. Every time you leave your house and get in your car you have faith that it's going to start and get you where you need to go. Every time you eat something you have faith that it's not poisoned and will kill you.

[Blastcat]

The difference between Christianity and every other religion is that originally Christianity affirmed that Jesus rose from the dead and affirmed that YHWH is God.

So, your god is different. THEIR god is different. Your god says this. THEIR god says THAT. What is your point?

It's not a matter of Christianity vs Islam vs Hinduism, it's Christianity vs everything else.

It's not a matter of Christianity vs. Two OTHER religions, it's Christianity vs. ALL the other religions? Well, yes.

What is your point?

That Christianity is vs everything?
Please be clear. I can't make heads or tails of this.

The claim of Christianity is exclusive, meaning that if it's true then all other religions are necessarily false.

Yes, and MANY other religions do the exact same thing. Many religions claim that their god is the true god.. and that all the others are false gods.

Like false idols.

So, many other religions make their kinds of exclusive claims, and like Christianity makes different kinds of exclusive claims.

That doesn't mean AT ALL that any claim is truer than another. I really DON'T see the point you're trying to make.

And if Jesus really rose from the dead then that affirms His claims and validates everything He did and said.

Well, yes, IF. Yes, that would be nice. IF it was at all provable, that would be SOMETHING.. but it isn't.

So, so much for THAT great idea.

If Jesus didn't rise from the dead then Christianity is meaningless and all Christians are being deceived or are delusional.

I think the religion is based on WAY more delusions than just that one, but ok. But it's not as if anyone can EVER prove a resurrection, OR NOT, so you're perfectly safe on that score.

But any person who believes in Jesus will necessarily deny all other gods.

The same as the people who believe in ALLAH and all SORTS of other gods... yep. That was pretty much my point.

MY god is the true god.. all the others.. not so much.

The old "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

The evidence for Jesus' resurrection is the topic of another thread but that is the most important aspect of Christianity to investigate.

Well, maybe when we get a TIME MACHINE we can GO investigate. What we have now are only tall tales. Nothing much TO investigate there.. Yeah, people tell strange and weird stories about their magical gods.

Nothing new here.

Additionally faith is everywhere. Every time you leave your house and get in your car you have faith that it's going to start and get you where you need to go.

Do you mean trust?

Because many people use the word "faith" when they mean "trust".
It's a common usage.

So, you might TRUST that your car will work because it worked yesterday.
Ok..

I don't PRAY for that.. it just happens.. or sometimes, it DOESN'T happen.

Cars work, and then cars break down. No amount of FAITH or TRUST is going to help the car work when a part is broken or run down.

You might PRAY that there's a car mechanic around to help you out.

Every time you eat something you have faith that it's not poisoned and will kill you.

You mean that you trust that most foods aren't poison. Yeah, fair assumption. but not always the case.

PRAYING and HOPING and WISHING and DREAMING and having FAITH wont change reality. The food is going to be good for you or not.

People of all kinds of beliefs die from bad food all over the world every day. It's a common cause of death.

But you can trust all you like. Our food here is mostly safe. Until it's not.
No amount of FAITH is going to change that.

[Zzyzx]

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The claim of Christianity is exclusive, meaning that if it's true then all other religions are necessarily false. And if Jesus really rose from the dead then that affirms His claims and validates everything He did and said. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead then Christianity is meaningless and all Christians are being deceived or are delusional.

Agreed. Christianity claims exclusivity and if tales about "resurrection" are not true the religion is based on fraud.

But any person who believes in Jesus will necessarily deny all other gods. The evidence for Jesus' resurrection is the topic of another thread but that is the most important aspect of Christianity to investigate.

Evidence supporting resurrection tales is nothing more than the tales themselves " testimonials / opinions / stories written long after the claimed event by people who cannot be identified or shown to have witnessed the events they write about.

Is that a bit shaky as "evidence" upon which to base a belief structure " or make life decisions?

Additionally faith is everywhere. Every time you leave your house and get in your car you have faith that it's going to start and get you where you need to go. Every time you eat something you have faith that it's not poisoned and will kill you.

If religionists wish to equate their religious faith with faith that a car will start or that food isn't poison (or that trash will be picked up on schedule), I have no objection.

[1213]

What you think is immaterial in debate. Is there good reason to accept tales about god(s) in the absence of evidence? If so what reason(s)?

Do you write imaginary stories about gods? I dont, and I dont think you do so. If we dont do so, why should we assume that other people do so?

I have actually done so. The god of the bible puts in cameo appearances in a novel I wrote. I've also read books with gods in. Douglas Adams (Hitch Hiker's guide to the Galaxy) for instance wrote a book with Thor as one of the main characters.

Ok, interesting to know. I should have said, write imaginary stories about gods as truth and non fictional stories.

[Peds nurse]

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[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I don't discredit other religions because they lack proof, I don't investigate other religions because there is no need to! I have found God...why would I keep searching?

Perhaps you found one of the minor gods (if such things as gods exist beyond imagination), the one favored by Bible writers (whoever they were) and the one currently popular in US society. Had you been born and raised elsewhere it is likely that you would have found a different god (as distribution of world religions indicates).

It is always God's plan, regardless of cultural influences, that we find Him!

Talk to any Muslims lately? Or any OTHER religious person lately? They don't agree with you.

Hey BC!!!

Just because everyone does not believe, does not mean it isn't truth.

A starting point might be to consider what evidence it would take to convince YOU that one of the other gods was "the real deal" and that the Bible god was just a minor player or an imposter promoted by Bible writers.

I don't need convinced Z. I am not looking for evidence of another God because I believe that my God is enough. I think it might be interesting to learn why others believe what they do, but I don't need to determine if their Gods are real.

Even IF you don't feel the need to be convinced that you are right.. doesn't it concern you that you might be wrong about your god beliefs?

Actually. I am not concerned about being wrong at all! It isn't just a belief, it is a relationship.

How can you be so certain that you aren't WRONG.. and that SOME OTHER god is the one true god.. Because people of OTHER faiths say the same thing you know. The exact same thing. They don't feel the need either.

I am certain that I am not wrong, because God's spirit lives in me. He is a LIVING God interacting in the lives of His people. Just because other's seem convinced that they are worshiping God, does not discredit mine.

They feel convinced too. THEY are completely convinced.. they don't care what you believe in. and they feel love and happiness all their days. They feel sad for you because you are truly lost.

Doesn't it bother you that they think the exact same way you do?

I'm confused as to why this should bother me? I should be sad that others are happy and feel love? I don't lose sleep BC, thinking about how others have missed the boat with the God's they serve. I pray for people, that God will show them truth, but how He shows them, is not for me to judge.

Would a few unverifiable stories in an ancient book be enough? Would unverifiable testimonials about "revelations" or "visions" told or written about be enough? Would a personal visit from a "god" be convincing " or a dream?

What would it take PN?

I am not sure what you think Z. But as for me, I didn't read the Bible, and think..YES GOD IS REAL. No, God understood my unbelief, He understood my doubts, which is why He addresses this in His word.

Somehow, out of the blue, a GOD started talking to you? How do you know this isn't your imagination gone haywire?

How do you know this isn't a demon deceiving you to BELIEVE in cultist beliefs?

Would a demon encourage forgiveness? Love? Gentleness? Kindness? I'll admit that I'm a little "off" at times (just ask my kids), but God speaks through His spirit given to us. I don't hear an audible voice, just a prompting of thoughts that direct me.

He says, trust me..just do it, and see if I don't fulfill every promise that I made unto mankind.

HE SAYS?.. hmmm do you mean you hear this in your imagination? Because, I don't THINK you mean he says with a voice that any OTHER person can hear...

Maybe it's another god, Peds. Maybe it's a demon, Peds. Maybe it's your imagination gone haywire, Peds.

Who's gone haywire here BC? You keep repeating yourself....

MAYBE peds.. maybe a lot of things, peds.

I like maybe...it's a good word

If you give me your trust, I will fill your storehouse so full, that it won't be able to hold my gifts.

what gifts? cars? health? wealth?

or a happy feeling.. many people from different religions feel very happy with THEIR gods too.

He fills my heart with His goodness...and with that heart full of goodness, I serve others, love freely, judge sparingly (I'm not perfect), and forgive much.

But maybe you are talking about cars and money and good looks.. who knows?
can you tell us what exactly these GIFTS are?

The gift of loving others the way He loves me.

Z, I didn't take a step toward God on evidence,

How is that NOT surprising, Peds?

You believe things without evidence?
HOW about I sell you some real estate.. no evidence.

The great thing about God is there is no money down because His gift is free to us. We have no closing costs or interest, or even maintenance fees! Much better than any property anywhere!

I took a step toward Him in faith.

Have faith to know if anything ELSE is true.. because faith is a real good way to KNOW things if they are real. REALLY? .. no not really. Faith is a horrible method to know if something is TRUE or not.

What do you use faith for in life, except for your god beliefs?

A great example is you! At first you came across pretty rude and disrespectful. I had faith that you would get better...and you did!!! AWESOME! My husband has severe back pain, I had faith that God would keep him going...and He has! I put gas in my car, and I had faith that the gas was actually what it said it was. I had faith my car would start....it can go on for ever!

He is a living God, constantly working in our lives, filling us with so much of His love, that it spills into the lives of others.

Your "god" is a living figment of your over active imagination. If you can make unsubstantiated claims, so can I. Your god is a demon deceiving you.

Sorry, it's a powerful demon. It's an alien from another dimension making you say nutty things. OOPSIE.

I don't much really care what you call it! Do you think changing the name matters at all? If I called your car a boat, would you take it on the water?

The "love" you feel isn't spilling here. What I see spilling here is a lot of empty words. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE .. ok but I have love and I don't need a god for that.

So what are you describing that's SPECIAL here?

Love? like others never heard of that?

What is special BC, is that God's love isn't based on human performance. It just is!

I ask you the same question Z! What would it take for you to believe?

God does not write on a rock, "God was here." He does not rain down money, or put the Alps in your back yard.

As best I can tell, NONE of the gods DO anything (except in people's testimonials " that cannot be checked for truth and accuracy).

I beg to differ my friend! His love is conveyed through the very words I write. I WISH I could tell you the extreme love that I have for all on this forum. It isn't made up, it is real, genuine, and not created from myself.

Words are cheap.

Words are not cheap if you mean them...if they are genuine. Cheap words are fake...are you saying that yours are cheap?

You can write "love" as many times as you like. That's great. I can write love too. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE. There.. I wrote the word more often than you did. DO I win a prize for that?

Nah.. words are cheap.

Repeating yourself doesn't prove a point. The difference is that I mean it...do you?

[Zzyzx]

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I should have said, write imaginary stories about gods as truth and non fictional stories.

Several writers have apparently done that -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (and other Bible writers). Those are not their real names (which have been changed to protect the guilty). They told stories as though they were witnesses to supernatural entities and events -- but wrote decades or generations after what they report.

There is no assurance that what they wrote about supernaturalism is anything more than the product of their imagination -- yet many believe those accounts and base their religion and many life decisions on them as though they were true and accurate.

Lincoln famously said, "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

Perhaps this accounts for there being Theists, Ex-Theists, and Non-theists.

[Zzyzx]

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Just because everyone does not believe, does not mean it isn't truth.

Agreed. Truth is independent of belief. Many things which are believed by multitudes are not truthful and accurate. Many things disbelieved by multitudes are truthful and accurate.

To argue otherwise is the logical fallacy of "Argumentum ad populum" (Google if unfamiliar)

Actually. I am not concerned about being wrong at all! It isn't just a belief, it is a relationship.

Exactly the same could be said of Japanese soldiers during WWII who regarded Emperor Hirohito as a god " or Romans who believed the same about their emperors " or modern religionists who claim to KNOW their favorite "god" is involved in a relationship with them.

I am certain that I am not wrong, because God's spirit lives in me.

Any believer / follower / worshiper of ANY of the thousands of proposed "gods" can say exactly the same thing " and be absolutely convinced they are right.

He is a LIVING God interacting in the lives of His people.

There just doesn't seem to be any evidence of such claimed interaction by any of the gods " just belief by various religions and religionists.

Just because other's seem convinced that they are worshiping God, does not discredit mine.

Just because you seem convinced that you are worshiping a god does not discredit the millions who worship different gods.

Would a demon encourage forgiveness? Love? Gentleness? Kindness?

Sure. Why not? Christian lore claims that "Satan" is a great deceiver. A supernatural great deceiver should be capable of saying whatever it takes to convince people to follow paths it chooses. It could masquerade as a "savior" or as a promoter (such as Paul/Saul) to lead people astray from worshiping a "true god" (if such thing existed).

I don't hear an audible voice, just a prompting of thoughts that direct me.

It is not uncommon for people to claim that their thoughts are influenced by "gods." Of course there is no reason to believe their testimonials are anything other than their own mental processes or imagination.

I serve others, love freely, judge sparingly (I'm not perfect), and forgive much.

So do many others who do not worship the Bible God " or any god. So what?

The great thing about God is there is no money down because His gift is free to us. We have no closing costs or interest, or even maintenance fees!

I disagree. The Bible God requires worship of "him" exclusively and no "false gods" (which can be variously defined or identified).

Again and again. A free gift comes with NO strings attached. "I will give you this if you do that" is NOT a free gift but a barter, a business deal, or a bribe (take your choice).

If ANYTHING is required to achieve the gift it is NOT a "free gift".

"Worship me, serve me, and I will 'save' you in an 'afterlife' is a barter or bribe.

I had faith that you would get better...and you did!!! AWESOME!

What, exactly, constitutes BC "getting better?"

My husband has severe back pain, I had faith that God would keep him going...and He has!

If your husband's back pain returns and perhaps requires human intervention, is that an indication that your faith was misplaced? Or can a relapse be excused as "God's plan?"

I put gas in my car, and I had faith that the gas was actually what it said it was. I had faith my car would start....it can go on for ever!

Some have faith that the trash will be picked up on schedule or that roadside dead animals will be removed by the highway department. Is that an example of "faith" that is equivalent to religious "faith?"

[JoeyKnothead]

I beg to differ my friend! His love is conveyed through the very words I write. I WISH I could tell you the extreme love that I have for all on this forum. It isn't made up, it is real, genuine, and not created from myself.

I don't even want your "love". You don't even know anything about me.

Bein' the paranoid me that I am, I 'preciate your comments here.

I'd much rather prefer folks could show they speak truth, than to "love" me into thinkin' they do.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I don't discredit other religions because they lack proof, I don't investigate other religions because there is no need to! I have found God...why would I keep searching?

Perhaps you found one of the minor gods (if such things as gods exist beyond imagination), the one favored by Bible writers (whoever they were) and the one currently popular in US society. Had you been born and raised elsewhere it is likely that you would have found a different god (as distribution of world religions indicates).

It is always God's plan, regardless of cultural influences, that we find Him!

Talk to any Muslims lately? Or any OTHER religious person lately? They don't agree with you.

Hey BC!!!
Just because everyone does not believe, does not mean it isn't truth.

Hey PD!!!

Just because everyone does believe, does not mean it is truth.

A starting point might be to consider what evidence it would take to convince YOU that one of the other gods was "the real deal" and that the Bible god was just a minor player or an imposter promoted by Bible writers.

I don't need convinced Z. I am not looking for evidence of another God because I believe that my God is enough. I think it might be interesting to learn why others believe what they do, but I don't need to determine if their Gods are real.

Even IF you don't feel the need to be convinced that you are right.. doesn't it concern you that you might be wrong about your god beliefs?

Actually. I am not concerned about being wrong at all! It isn't just a belief, it is a relationship.

A relationship with an imaginary friend should be a concern.

How can you be so certain that you aren't WRONG.. and that SOME OTHER god is the one true god.. Because people of OTHER faiths say the same thing you know. The exact same thing. They don't feel the need either.

I am certain that I am not wrong, because God's spirit lives in me.

How can you be so certain that you aren't wrong about that?

He is a LIVING God interacting in the lives of His people.

How can you be so certain that you aren't wrong about that?

We KNOW people have delusions. We DON'T know if any of your god beliefs are real at all.

Just because other's seem convinced that they are worshiping God, does not discredit mine.

But you seem JUST as convinced as they are. They say you are deluded. THEY SAY you should believe theirs. It's the same thing.

It may not DISCREDIT your god but it certainly doesn't ADD any credibility to it.

They feel convinced too. THEY are completely convinced.. they don't care what you believe in. and they feel love and happiness all their days. They feel sad for you because you are truly lost.

Doesn't it bother you that they think the exact same way you do?

I'm confused as to why this should bother me? I should be sad that others are happy and feel love? I don't lose sleep BC, thinking about how others have missed the boat with the God's they serve. I pray for people, that God will show them truth, but how He shows them, is not for me to judge.

No, it's not about the love, they talk about the love too, but it's about the god beliefs.
They say that love comes only from their god beliefs too.

They say the same exact things you do about your god.. including how you are wrong.
They say the same thing about how their god will show itself to you.

So, when you talk about love, happiness, how your god is the one true god.. they say the same thing, but they don't believe in your god at all. They believe in theirs.

You believe in yours.

You think exactly like they do. But you don't believe in the same god that they do. .. Odd.. the arguments you give ME are the same they do too.

They talk to their gods too. They have a relationship too. OH YEAH.. different KINDS of relationships.. but still.

The thing is.. if you are trying to make a case for YOUR god beliefs... I can't tell the difference between YOURS and THEIRS.

They are the same.

Oh, for sure the STORIES are different. One god is BLUE... is that the only difference? The COLORS ?

It's obvious that you do seem to have trouble understanding the point.
It's got to be Allah.

Allah is the only true god. You might debate a Muslim some time. You'd be amazed how similar they are to you, and how MUCH they disagree with your conclusions.

doesn't concern you at all in any way?

They also use arguments such as morality, creation, design, prime mover... but because they were brought up in a different part of the WORLD.. the god they pray to isn't yours.

If you were born in that part of the world.. would you more likely be a Muslim or a christian?

Would a few unverifiable stories in an ancient book be enough? Would unverifiable testimonials about "revelations" or "visions" told or written about be enough? Would a personal visit from a "god" be convincing " or a dream?

What would it take PN?

I am not sure what you think Z. But as for me, I didn't read the Bible, and think..YES GOD IS REAL. No, God understood my unbelief, He understood my doubts, which is why He addresses this in His word.

Somehow, out of the blue, a GOD started talking to you? How do you know this isn't your imagination gone haywire?

How do you know this isn't a demon deceiving you to BELIEVE in cultist beliefs?

Would a demon encourage forgiveness? Love? Gentleness? Kindness?

Sure, why NOT?

That's the BEST way to sucker you in. The better you are .. the more it hurts when it all comes crashing down. Get someone to think they are doing GOOD when they are ACTUALLY doing the worst kind of EVIL in the long run.. We hear all the time about how people go crazy over love, for example. Murder for love, for example. Yes, even LOVE can be twisted around for some evil plan.

make your kids depend on LOVE.. make them VULNERABLE TO ALL OF THAT.. yes.. perfectly evil.

The point is that an evil DEMON could fool you and you would NEVER know. Imagine the head job a perfectly evil GOD could do on you?

The best place to start is get you to have an imaginary relationship. Then ANYTHING that you think comes from god .. just does.

I'll admit that I'm a little "off" at times (just ask my kids), but God speaks through His spirit given to us. I don't hear an audible voice, just a prompting of thoughts that direct me.

So, you don't hear anything at all. We KNOW THAT. The "sounds" are completely imaginary.

It's inside of your head. Just like me. I think things inside my head.

I don't have an imaginary friend talking to me. It's just "me" in there. You .. apparently have gods, demons, angels.. what else?

WHO KNOWS?

But when you have a thought .. it could come direct from god according to you. And that's scary to the rest of us.

The rest of us understand how that can go horribly wrong. GOD TOLD ME .. is the perfect justification for ANY kind of thought. EVIL TERRIBLE THOUGHTS and nice ones, too.

Hopefully, you have more nice thoughts you attribute to your god than evil ones.

And we KNOW that this happens.. people do terrible things indeed.. invoking all manner of "voices" in their heads.

And don't forget.. hearing "voices" is a symptom of schizophrenia.

this is NOT just some imagination, this is REAL, it REALLY happens to people .. and it's tragic.

You seem to be ENCOURAGING this kind of thinking.

And that is very disturbing to the rest of us.

He says, trust me..just do it, and see if I don't fulfill every promise that I made unto mankind.

HE SAYS?.. hmmm do you mean you hear this in your imagination? Because, I don't THINK you mean he says with a voice that any OTHER person can hear...

Maybe it's another god, Peds. Maybe it's a demon, Peds. Maybe it's your imagination gone haywire, Peds.

Who's gone haywire here BC? You keep repeating yourself....

Yes, I keep repeating myself because I am addressing your repetitious sermons. I said that MAYBE this god belief and "presence" that you feel is your imagination gone haywire.

That can happen, you know.

Ask a psychiatrist if it can happen or not.

You talk the same way as some schizophrenics I know. They hear voices telling them to do things, they have bizarre ideation.

And SOMEHOW.. this seems like a good way to think for you.
Like people with serious mental disorders.

I don't think that's a good way of thinking. I don't think it's a good thing to promote.
I oppose that crazy way of thinking.

that's why I tend to get worked up.

I believe it's more important to NOT think like a person suffering from delusions.
I believe it's more important to think clearly, and using the best logic, not the worst possible logic.

Irrationality, we know, leads to destruction. Call that love if you will, but I call it very dangerous and bad reasoning.

MAYBE peds.. maybe a lot of things, peds.

I like maybe...it's a good word

Maybe your god, and maybe their god and MAYBE you are wrong.
Yes, I'm glad you like "maybe".

Doubting our cherished beliefs is EXTREMELY important. What we may basing our lives on .. MIGHT NOT BE TRUE.

doesn't that concern you?

Don't you ever worry that YOUR ideas might NOT be real? Your relationship might be.. just an imagination gone haywire?

If you give me your trust, I will fill your storehouse so full, that it won't be able to hold my gifts.

what gifts? cars? health? wealth?

or a happy feeling.. many people from different religions feel very happy with THEIR gods too.

He fills my heart with His goodness...and with that heart full of goodness, I serve others, love freely, judge sparingly (I'm not perfect), and forgive much.'

Happy feelings. That's what I guessed.

Nothing that anyone could verify at all.. just feelings.

WOW.. your god really promises things that you can't have normally, does he?

I guessed it wasn't anything that we can't get perfectly well without your god.

I can be happy, good, loving, kind, giving.. oh gag me.
WITHOUT ANY GOD... of any kind.

So what is your god giving you that I can't have without a god?
Anything special?

But maybe you are talking about cars and money and good looks.. who knows?
can you tell us what exactly these GIFTS are?

The gift of loving others the way He loves me.

I can love others. No god included. No delusions needed.

What is your god giving you that we can't have without one?
ANYTHING?

What is this special kind of love?

It's the same kind of love that your god has.

What is that?

Z, I didn't take a step toward God on evidence,

How is that NOT surprising, Peds?

You believe things without evidence?
HOW about I sell you some real estate.. no evidence.

The great thing about God is there is no money down because His gift is free to us. We have no closing costs or interest, or even maintenance fees! Much better than any property anywhere!

Yes, good feelings are free, and CHEAP. you see, free things tend to be real cheap. But good feelings about something do NOT guarantee that they are about anything REAL.. how do you know that what you believe in is REAL?

What about any EVIDENCE, PN?

If you don't believe due to any EVIDENCE. how DO you believe any of this?
And why don't you buy my real estate?

I will offer you NO evidence.
That should work.

OH .. and I promise that you can be very happy there.
It's only money after all.

I took a step toward Him in faith.

Have faith to know if anything ELSE is true.. because faith is a real good way to KNOW things if they are real. REALLY? .. no not really. Faith is a horrible method to know if something is TRUE or not.

What do you use faith for in life, except for your god beliefs?

A great example is you! At first you came across pretty rude and disrespectful. I had faith that you would get better...and you did!!! AWESOME! My husband has severe back pain, I had faith that God would keep him going...and He has! I put gas in my car, and I had faith that the gas was actually what it said it was. I had faith my car would start....it can go on for ever!

Well, the forum MODERATORS had something to do with my tone calming down.

NOT A GOD.. but people enforcing rules.
So, your PRAYERS were not needed.

People get over their bad backs.. no gods needed. And then maybe JUST maybe .. he had medical attention for that back. No god needed.

And if all you pray for is gas in the car.. how about kids with cancer?

Are you actually saying that YOUR perfectly moral god cares MORE for your car than for any KID suffering from cancer people are praying for?

Why don't you pray for the kids with cancer?

What about you focus on THAT kind of love?
What kind of GOD love are you talking about?

The kind of God love that makes sure your CAR RUNS? And the same kind of god love that cures ONE kid with cancer?

Now, if your kind of love could cure ONE KID.. I'd be convinced.
I couldn't give a .. care about your car, quite frankly.

He is a living God, constantly working in our lives, filling us with so much of His love, that it spills into the lives of others.

Your "god" is a living figment of your over active imagination. If you can make unsubstantiated claims, so can I. Your god is a demon deceiving you.

Sorry, it's a powerful demon. It's an alien from another dimension making you say nutty things. OOPSIE.

I don't much really care what you call it! Do you think changing the name matters at all? If I called your car a boat, would you take it on the water?

The POINT of calling your so called "god" a DEMON is that a DEMON isn't a god, and it's evil. And it's more powerful that humans.. and it's magical. And it could fool in such a way that you would have no idea.

The thing about CARS is that they aren't just imaginary. We can SEE cars.. we can TOUCH cars, we can take PICTURES of cars. And SOME cars DO float.

Your GOD isn't something we can SEE, like a car. Your God isn't something that we can HEAR except in your head. Your god isn't something that we can TOUCH.. it's not something that we can weigh, it's not something that we can take a picture of , or know in any way except for your telling us about your imagination

Your god is VERY far from being as real as any car.

But a demon is about as real as your god. And it may be the "voice" you are LISTENING to in your head.

The "love" you feel isn't spilling here. What I see spilling here is a lot of empty words. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE .. ok but I have love and I don't need a god for that.

So what are you describing that's SPECIAL here?

Love? like others never heard of that?


EVERYONE has heard of love. We all FEEL love. We all EXPERIENCE love. We don't all BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD.

Love is real. Love is a REAL human experience we all share.

YOUR GOD isn't real. Your god is an experience only YOU can testify about. We have your word, and nothing else.

Even evil atheists know that love exists. No god needed.

What is special BC, is that God's love isn't based on human performance. It just is!

IT JUST IS.

WOW .. what a really unconvincing and lame assertion.

HOW ABOUT .. it just isn't.

Convinced yet?

Do you expect anyone ELSE to be convinced by this kind bad reasoning?

And you were going on and on and on about how your love was some kind of proof of this god.. and then you say that this god's love has nothing to do with human performance. So YOUR human love performance has nothing to do with god.

Please don't contradict yourself. It doesn't help your case at all.

So, DOES your human love performance have anything to do with GOD, or not?

Words are cheap.

Words are not cheap if you mean them...if they are genuine. Cheap words are fake...are you saying that yours are cheap?

I could say anything at all. and make any kind of crazy claims. words are cheap, that's why I TEND not to may crazy claims.

LIKE for example:

This is the best used car ever.

Vote for me.. im an HONEST politician.

Pray to my god .. my god is the good god.

Oh, and an alien took over your mind.

I can say just about anything.. words are cheap.

You can say anything you want.. just as easy and cheap.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR LOVE and YOUR GOD and YOUR RELATIONSHIP.. go ahead.

and buy my car.. it's the best car.

You can write "love" as many times as you like. That's great. I can write love too. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE. There.. I wrote the word more often than you did. DO I win a prize for that?

Nah.. words are cheap.

Repeating yourself doesn't prove a point. The difference is that I mean it...do you?

YOU SAY you do.. YOU SAY you mean it.
Yep, you do say lots of things.

I don't feel any so called "God love" from you. Sorry. I see words. That's it.
And you haven't even told me how this "god love" is any different from just normal love all people feel, regardless of religion or lack thereof.

[Peds nurse]

.

Just because everyone does not believe, does not mean it isn't truth.

Agreed. Truth is independent of belief. Many things which are believed by multitudes are not truthful and accurate. Many things disbelieved by multitudes are truthful and accurate.

To argue otherwise is the logical fallacy of "Argumentum ad populum" (Google if unfamiliar)

Actually. I am not concerned about being wrong at all! It isn't just a belief, it is a relationship.

Exactly the same could be said of Japanese soldiers during WWII who regarded Emperor Hirohito as a god " or Romans who believed the same about their emperors " or modern religionists who claim to KNOW their favorite "god" is involved in a relationship with them.

Hey Z!!

I mean no disrespect, so please don't take it as such. I honestly fail to understand how people's belief in different Gods = there are no Gods. It is like having people who love vanilla ice cream in one group, strawberry ice cream in another group, and chocolate in yet another. All those subsets of people who like different ice cream, means that there isn't ice cream? Please don't say we can see ice cream...ect, because that isn't what this is about. How can groups of different beliefs matter at all in debate? How is that even a valid point?

I am certain that I am not wrong, because God's spirit lives in me.

Any believer / follower / worshiper of ANY of the thousands of proposed "gods" can say exactly the same thing " and be absolutely convinced they are right.

Why does that even matter what other people believe in retrospect to my believe? Just because others are convinced they are right, means what exactly?

He is a LIVING God interacting in the lives of His people.

There just doesn't seem to be any evidence of such claimed interaction by any of the gods " just belief by various religions and religionists.

Just because other's seem convinced that they are worshiping God, does not discredit mine.

Just because you seem convinced that you are worshiping a god does not discredit the millions who worship different gods.

I know there are other people who worship different Gods Z, but it does not effect my beliefs.

Would a demon encourage forgiveness? Love? Gentleness? Kindness?

Sure. Why not? Christian lore claims that "Satan" is a great deceiver. A supernatural great deceiver should be capable of saying whatever it takes to convince people to follow paths it chooses. It could masquerade as a "savior" or as a promoter (such as Paul/Saul) to lead people astray from worshiping a "true god" (if such thing existed).

Maybe....but deception is not truth, and eventually true colors will show. Satan's task is not to deceive for the sake of deception, but to lure us away from God. If we stay close to God, deception is usually apparent, because it goes against His will.

I don't hear an audible voice, just a prompting of thoughts that direct me.

It is not uncommon for people to claim that their thoughts are influenced by "gods." Of course there is no reason to believe their testimonials are anything other than their own mental processes or imagination.

Billions of Christians over the coarse of time imagining that God is directing them....interesting!!

I serve others, love freely, judge sparingly (I'm not perfect), and forgive much.

So do many others who do not worship the Bible God " or any god. So what?

I believe this was taken out of context. When you break conversations up, sometimes they have a whole new meaning...I can't remember the point I was even trying to make...lol

The great thing about God is there is no money down because His gift is free to us. We have no closing costs or interest, or even maintenance fees!

I disagree. The Bible God requires worship of "him" exclusively and no "false gods" (which can be variously defined or identified).

If you worship God, why would you need false one's? If I give you a gift, it isn't yours until you take it from me. God offers us a gift, when we take it from Him, we are taking life...there really are no gimmicks. The gift is His blood poured out for us...we need only take it! We cannot, like real estate, purchase it.

If ANYTHING is required to achieve the gift it is NOT a "free gift".

Don't you have to take the gift?

"Worship me, serve me, and I will 'save' you in an 'afterlife' is a barter or bribe.

Close, but not quite accurate. We cannot worship what we do not accept. All we have to do is take the gift. His blood poured out for us. When we accept the gift, God's spirit resides in us.

I had faith that you would get better...and you did!!! AWESOME!

What, exactly, constitutes BC "getting better?"

I am surprised you asked that because you gave him a few warnings...I have read several of BC's posts, and they have a more calm approach.

My husband has severe back pain, I had faith that God would keep him going...and He has!

If your husband's back pain returns and perhaps requires human intervention, is that an indication that your faith was misplaced? Or can a relapse be excused as "God's plan?"

I put gas in my car, and I had faith that the gas was actually what it said it was. I had faith my car would start....it can go on for ever!

Some have faith that the trash will be picked up on schedule or that roadside dead animals will be removed by the highway department. Is that an example of "faith" that is equivalent to religious "faith?"

That wasn't the question!!